Wen Jiabao brushes off human rights accusations, promises 2 pandas

[Jom]

The Chinese premier, Wen Jiabao, issued a diplomatic dressing down of the British government by declaring the UK should stop "finger pointing" over human rights in discussions with Beijing.

Wen also suggested the UK economy needed to do better, in remarks that appeared to differ from his warm words towards Germany, which he was also visiting on his European tour.

The rebukes marred the signing of some £1.4bn of trade deals, the most important being an agreement between BG, the UK energy group, and Bank of China for up to $1.5bn of funding to expand projects in China.

Britain, for its part, said it would welcome Chinese investment in UK infrastructure, as well as greater co-operation over international development.

At a Downing Street press conference, Wen repeatedly aired his frustration at the way the UK government and media seemed to obsess about human rights.

He said: "On human rights, China and the UK should respect each other, respect the facts, treat each other as equals, engage in more co-operation than finger-pointing and resolve our differences through dialogue. China is not only pursuing economic development but also political structural reform and improvement in democracy and the rule of law."

He said China had been exposed to untold sufferings in its 5,000-year history. "This has taught the Chinese never to talk to others in a lecturing way, but to respect nations on the basis of equality."

David Cameron said: "We applaud the economic transformation that has taken place in China … But, as I said in Beijing last November, we do believe the best guarantor of prosperity and stability is for economic and political progress to go in step together."

The prime minister said no issue had been left off the table but No 10 was reluctant to detail specific human rights abuses. He said: "There is no trade-off in our relationship. It is not about either discussing trade or human rights. Britain and China have such a strong and developed relationship. We have a dialogue that covers all these issues, and nothing is off limits in the discussions that we have."

Wen did say there was "no strategic conflict" between the UK and China and that "our common interests outweigh our differences". It was a mark of this relationship that China would be sending two giant pandas, Tian Tian and Yangguang, to Edinburgh Zoo by the end of this year – as announced by China's vice premier, Li Keqiang, in January.

Cameron also pressed China to crackdown on abuses of intellectual property and patents, saying it was "absolutely essential" because of Britain's strength in branded goods and in film, music and the arts. A "symposium" to discuss the issue has been set up.

Chinese officials, involved in a month-long crackdown on civil rights activists, expressed irritation and said Britain was viewed less favourably in Beijing than Germany, France, Italy and Spain. There is anger that Cameron may have gone further than other European leaders when in China in raising human rights concerns.

In a speech to the Royal Society, Wen admitted corruption and income disparities were harming people's lives in China. "Without freedom there is no real democracy and without the guarantee of economic and political rights there is no real freedom," he said. "To be frank, corruption, unfair income distribution and other ills that harm the people's interests still exist in China."

Wen also expressed his differences with the British over Libya saying the solution lay in diplomacy. "Foreign troops may be able to win war in a place, but they can hardly win peace. Hard lessons have been learned from what has happened in the Middle East and Afghanistan."

China still supported the UN security council resolution that authorised air strikes to protect civilians, but the nations involved must comply with the strict terms. Wen added: "We hope that the issue of Libya will be resolved through political, peaceful means, to reduce the humanitarian harm and in particular the harm of innocent civilians."

Source.

Wen Jiabao has been visiting Europe recently, with the British leg of his tour coming to an end. What I find galling is the objections that China raise to its human rights record being brought up, with Wen offering weak excuses like each country should "respect the facts", when the facts are that China's human rights record still leaves a lot to be desired with a great many political prisoners and the suppression of dissent. As you can see from the article, apparently China views Britain more coldly than it views other European countries due to Britain's consistent criticism of China's record in this area. Do you think that Britain is right to continually raise this issue, or do you think some modicum of realpolitik should be employed because it's clear that China won't change simply due to this criticism, and it may actually harm Sino-British relations? At a time when Britain is in need of Chinese investment to help boost the economy, an economy that China criticised, should we learn to keep our mouths shut?

[removeduser_487563287433]

I think we have to make money along with everybody else. China ultimately knows we're not going to ignore their human rights issues.

[sephodwyrm]

China ultimately knows we're not going to ignore their human rights issues.

Something that would constantly remind them that they are different and not welcome.
Fantastic way of diplomacy.
Reverse psychology has already pissed off a great number of Chinese people. These measures are not engendering the Chinese masses to your side. I've seen a greater deal of alienation with Western concepts of human rights in China as a result of this.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Something that would constantly remind them that they are different and not welcome.
Fantastic way of diplomacy.
Reverse psychology has already pissed off a great number of Chinese people. These measures are not engendering the Chinese masses to your side. I've seen a greater deal of alienation with Western concepts of human rights in China as a result of this.

Oh right if you put it like that woo! Torture! Yeah!

[Exarch]

Something that would constantly remind them that they are different and not welcome.
Fantastic way of diplomacy.
Reverse psychology has already pissed off a great number of Chinese people. These measures are not engendering the Chinese masses to your side. I've seen a greater deal of alienation with Western concepts of human rights in China as a result of this.

this,

if i were entertaining a guest in my own home, it would be extremely poor form for me to judge or criticize how my guest does things in his own house, as it would be for him to come into my home and have the nerve to criticize me for how i do things at home. even more so if i rely on him for work and money

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

I think its Chinas bussiness not the UKs.How about stopping trade with them to show your moral highground?Oh yes money is god so that wont happen.Britain should execute chavs and neds 1st then critisize others

[Jom]

I think it's almost become a way of self-reassurance for western nations with struggling economies, repeating to themselves "China may be an economic giant but at least our human rights record is better". As much as it pains me to say it, I think we need to follow China's wishes in this. Bhagwati has argued in the past that economic growth sorts out human rights as the growth of the middle classes leads to people who are more aware of their situation and start demanding reforms, and China's middle classes are growing at a very large rate.

I think its Chinas bussiness not the UKs.How about stopping trade with them to show your moral highground?Oh yes money is god so that wont happen.Britain should execute chavs and neds 1st then critisize others

Chavs and neds perpetrate human rights abuses in the UK? We're talking about criticising China for human rights abuses; summary executions don't really fall into the "legitimate" column in terms of human rights protection.

[Basil II the B.S]

Do you think that Britain is right to continually raise this issue, or do you think some modicum of realpolitik should be employed because it's clear that China won't change simply due to this criticism, and it may actually harm Sino-British relations? At a time when Britain is in need of Chinese investment to help boost the economy, an economy that China criticised, should we learn to keep our mouths shut?

Business is business. I'm not even sure how much UK can afford being left aside by China.

I'm actually surprised they didn't play the ''opium wars'' card anyways.

[sephodwyrm]

summary executions don't really fall into the "legitimate" column in terms of human rights protection.

Oh?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital...ublic_of_China

Hah.
There's certainly legal misconduct, but summary execution is sensationalization.

I'm actually surprised they didn't play the ''opium wars'' card anyways.

We did during the HK handover.
Of which certain pretenders to the Imperialist and Colonial Past must be reminded that modern China is not the China during the Opium Wars. That's the most extreme form of card played on the diplomatic stage. The government doesn't whine.

[Jom]

Oh?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital...ublic_of_China

Hah.

I think you need to check the definition of "summary".

[Jom]

There's certainly legal misconduct, but summary execution is sensationalization.

Oh I see you misunderstood my post. I was asking how the ridiculous suggestion made by Tom Cruise of summarily executing chavs and neds would lend the UK any legitimacy on human rights grounds when dealing with China.

[Prosaic Visitant]

Frankly I don't mind my nation doing business with the naughty nations; really, how legit do you think you are if you bring up HR abuses or something then continue to do business with said nation?

Either put an embargo/ tariff on that nation's goods and services or simply pipe down.

[sephodwyrm]

@Ferrets:

Oh right if you put it like that woo! Torture! Yeah!

American slapstick defense of torture actually increased the movement against torture and police brutality in China.
So you actually have a point right there.

I think you need to check the definition of "summary".

Phail.
Hah.
Summary condemnation right there. Without a trial or any semblance of a trial...not even a kangaroo court.

[Jom]

@Ferrets:

American slapstick defense of torture actually increased the movement against torture and police brutality in China.
So you actually have a point right there.


Phail.
Hah.
Summary condemnation right there. Without a trial or any semblance of a trial...not even a kangaroo court.

Read my post a couple of posts above yours, please. I've tried to sort out the misunderstanding.

[sephodwyrm]

I support their arrogance. Much like the mission back in 1793. The situation is reversed.

[Exarch]

I support their arrogance. Much like the mission back in 1793. The situation is reversed.

i think jom's right; i mean you won't hear about the UK press pressuring secstate hilary clinton on xyz 'appalling human rights record'-it is, quite simply a superiority complex, remnants of a bygone era.

it maintains the illusion that the government has more control over its own finances and security than it did before the 08 crash

[Erebus Pasha]

i think jom's right; i mean you won't hear about the UK press pressuring secstate hilary clinton on xyz 'appalling human rights record'-it is, quite simply a superiority complex, remnants of a bygone era.

it maintains the illusion that the government has more control over its own finances and security than it did before the 08 crash

It's more an inferiority complex on the part of the Chinese or Sinophiles that suscribe to this viewpoint. China is not dealing with Victorian era Britain so I don't know why references to the past historical events are being brought up, as are points being made about Britain apparent dependence on Chinese investment.

To get back to Jom's original post I do think we should keep our mouths shut in this tough economic climate rather than continually pester the Chinese about their human rights record. I think it's important that close relations are fostered for the time being.

[HissingNewt]

i think jom's right; i mean you won't hear about the UK press pressuring secstate hilary clinton on xyz 'appalling human rights record'-it is, quite simply a superiority complex, remnants of a bygone era.

What "appalling human rights record" does the modern US have? We've ended government and business racism, no longer kill Indians and remove them from their land and have a list of protected rights. Am I missing something about why the Brits should pressure us over human rights?

[Exarch]

What "appalling human rights record" does the modern US have? We've ended government and business racism, no longer kill Indians and remove them from their land and have a list of protected rights. Am I missing something about why the Brits should pressure us over human rights?

the phrase 'appalling human rights record' is commonly used by pundits/journalists who like to indulge in a little 19th century paternalism when describing non western cultures; it's even more hilarious when the secstate blithely ignores her own country's history and assumes some sort of moral superiority;

y'know how that comes off to anyone who's aware of history and international relations?
abso-ing-lutely disgusting. makes me wonder wtf the state department's been smoking

[charles the hammer]

the phrase 'appalling human rights record' is commonly used by pundits/journalists who like to indulge in a little 19th century paternalism when describing non western cultures; it's even more hilarious when the secstate blithely ignores her own country's history and assumes some sort of moral superiority;

y'know how that comes off to anyone who's aware of history and international relations?
abso-ing-lutely disgusting. makes me wonder wtf the state department's been smoking

You know you mainly say this anytime someone criticizes China, so I doubt your being earnest here, rather than just being nationalistic in a sense.