N Korean children begging, army starving

[Space Wolves]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...27/3253979.htm

Footage shot inside North Korea and obtained by the ABC has revealed the extent of chronic food shortages and malnutrition inside the secretive state.
The video is some of the most revealing footage ever smuggled out of the impoverished North Korean state.
Shot over several months by an undercover North Korean journalist, the harrowing footage shows images of filthy, homeless and orphaned children begging for food and soldiers demanding bribes.
The footage also shows North Koreans labouring on a private railway track for the dictator's son and heir near the capital Pyongyang.
Strolling up to the site supervisor, the man with the hidden camera asks what is going on.
"This rail line is a present from Kim Jong-il to comrade Kim Jong-un," he is told.
The well-fed Kim Jong-un could soon be ruling over a nation of starving, impoverished serfs.
The video shows young children caked in filth begging in markets, pleading for scraps from compatriots who have nothing to give.
"I am eight," says one boy. "My father died and my mother left me. I sleep outdoors."
Many of the children are orphans; their parents victims of starvation or the gulag.
But markets do exist - private markets that stock bags of rice, pork, and corn. The state no longer has any rations to hand out.
But the state wants its share of this embryonic capitalism.
In the footage, a party official is demanding a stallholder make a donation of rice to the army.
"My business is not good," complains the stallholder.
"Shut up," replies the official. "Don't offer excuses."
It is clear that the all-powerful army - once quarantined from food shortages and famine - is starting to go hungry.
"Everybody is weak," says one young North Korean soldier. "Within my troop of 100 comrades, half of them are malnourished," he said.
Jiro Ishimaru is the man who trained the undercover reporter to use the hidden camera.
"This footage is important because it shows that Kim Jong-il's regime is growing weak," he said.
"It used to put the military first, but now it can't even supply food to its soldiers. Rice is being sold in markets but they are starving. This is the most significant thing in this video."
Kim Jong-il's grip on power depends on the military and if some of its soldiers have growling, empty bellies, it is bad news for the dictator and his hopes for a smooth transition to his son.
"The priority for Kim Jong-il is the succession," said Mr Ishimaru.
"But Kim Jong-un is still very young, just 27 or 28. He doesn't have any experience and hasn't achieved anything. So opposition to a third generation of the Kim family taking over is growing."
But this dynasty of dictators has proven that it is more than capable of keeping its wretched population in line through gulags, hunger and a total control over every aspect of life.
But as this footage shows, occasionally, a crack of light emerges from this dark, dark place.




When you're army is beginning to starve you know this is going to slowly turn south.

[alhoon]

When armed men are starting to have growling bellies it means everyone else is already starving. It's not slowly turning south, it has turned south a long ago.

However that's not humane. IF there's not enough food to feed everyone the army and the powerful will starve last. People would be dying in the streets as they propably are. Sure NKorea is a bad state, but is every NKorean an evil guy that should be punished with "death by starvation and malnutrition"?

[Sigma]

My guess to the outcome of North Korea is either the Military coups Kim Jong Un after his dad kicks the can and installs a dictatorship like Myanmar's. Or China steps in, saves NK and pretty much makes them a total puppet to China (more so than they are now).

Or in the unlikely scenarios Kim Jong Un turns out to be a reformer and "liberalizes" NK some and mimics China in how their handled their country post-Mao. Or he turns out to be a rebel like his dad and grandfather and does something stupid like raid trade ships for food and supplies and digs NK deeper into the hole.

[Exarch]

tell me again; why is it ok to use food as a bargaining chip?

[HissingNewt]

tell me again; why is it ok to use food as a bargaining chip?

Do you mean that we should just give them food because they're starving?

[alhoon]

Do you mean that we should just give them food because they're starving?

I think that's the right thing to do.

[Hmmm]

I think that's the right thing to do.

Why? Let's think a little realistically about this whole thing, who do you think would take any food the West sends? All it would result in would be to feed the same military that is threatening South Korea on a daily basis.

[spanish_emperor]

Why? Let's think a little realistically about this whole thing, who do you think would take any food the West sends? All it would result in would be to feed the same military that is threatening South Korea on a daily basis.

I dunno, couldn't it allow the elites an excuse to go to war? tricky situation

[HissingNewt]

I think that's the right thing to do.

It is the right thing to do, but it props up a murderous regime.

[danzig]

tell me again; why is it ok to use food as a bargaining chip?

When nothing else works and food aid doesnt reach the poor and starving and is instead redirected to feeding soldiers then yes it is.

[Hazelnut]

Pity the video was removed. If it is true, then I have three questions for those who are more informed about North Korea than I. If anyone is willing to answer.

Outside of merely feeding the population, how would the North Korean government intend to get back public support for the current regime?

Just because the people do not have access to food does not mean its not being grown. Is there enough food being produced in North Korea to sustain the population?

Why is this only a major problem now?

Finally a moral question.

Do neighbouring countries have a moral obligation to aid those suffering?

Finally,saw an interesting article, although if off topic and likely to be bias.
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2938149

[cardnals100]

Just because the people do not have access to food does not mean its not being grown. Is there enough food being produced in North Korea to sustain the population?

No, North Korea does not produce enough food at the moment to sustain it's population, most of the food comes from the Pyongyang area,and a lot of it stays there.

[Poach]

Outside of merely feeding the population, how would the North Korean government intend to get back public support for the current regime?

Well, I suppose two answers can be given for that:

Firstly, they don't need it. The North Korean people are the most oppressed in the world. If there's even a hint of dissent it's brutally cracked down on, and any attempt at an uprising would see the ringleaders executed immediately.

Secondly, the North Korean people live and die in a world of state propaganda. They're all heavily brainwashed and even as they starve they sing the praises of the Dear Leader, either through genuine (brainwashed in) love or fear of the consequences of not loving him.

Just because the people do not have access to food does not mean its not being grown. Is there enough food being produced in North Korea to sustain the population?

No one knows, the state is too secretive. There is food in the country, but clearly not enough to feed everyone if even the Army is going hungry. In North Korea, the Army never goes hungry.

Why is this only a major problem now?

There have been famines in North Korea before: crops can always fail. It's not that there is a lack of capacity to grow enough food to feed the population (though the peasants do probably live in very little even in the best of times), clearly there has been a recent failed harvest in the State. Since NK does not import or export, a crop failure means a famine.

Finally a moral question.

One could argue yes on morality alone, but the practicality of overthrowing the North Korean government is another thing entirely.

You'd need hundreds of thousands of soldiers to invade, occupy and reform North Korea, and it would take years.

Only the United States could do that alone, and North Korea isn't enough of a threat to warrant spending trillions of dollars on maintaining hundreds of thousands of soldiers to occupy a country whose population would be fiercely hostile for a decade or more.

[brandbll]

Pity the video was removed. If it is true, then I have three questions for those who are more informed about North Korea than I. If anyone is willing to answer.

Outside of merely feeding the population, how would the North Korean government intend to get back public support for the current regime?

Just because the people do not have access to food does not mean its not being grown. Is there enough food being produced in North Korea to sustain the population?

Why is this only a major problem now?

Finally a moral question.

Do neighbouring countries have a moral obligation to aid those suffering?

Finally,saw an interesting article, although if off topic and likely to be bias.
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2938149

To answer your first question, the social elite in North Korea just simply don't care. They feel that a large percentage of their population is expendable, and by large i mean well over 50%(I've heard up to 80%). If the social elite have that opinion about that large of a percentage of their people, do you think they give a damn about 'public support'? Keeping the social elite happy is all that matters to Kim Jong Il, and that's a very small percentage. If they're happy, he's happy. Kim Il Sung, Kim Jong Il and now his son are mainstays to the propoganda that has given these 'elites' the power that they have in their country.

The answer to your second question is 'no'. They do not grow very much food. Their main crop is actually opium, which is then sold for money which keeps, once again, the social elite happy. Why is this only a problem now? Well, it isn't. It's been a problem for years, even decades.

To answer your final question, there is no way to help the people suffering in North Korea. Countries and aid organizations like the Red Cross have sent unimaginable amounts of aid to North Korea. Where does this aid go? It goes to either the military or is spread amongst the social elite so they can consume it or they can sell it on the streets to anyone who can scrounge together the money to purchase any of it. This ties in with the whole expendable population. Any aid that is to be given HAS to be controlled by TPTB in North Korea, otherwise the North Koreans just wouldn't take it. They aren't going to let anyone in to disperse it however they feel.

[MathiasOfAthens]

Like in Rome if the military is not fed (payed) then the military will turn. Its only a matter of time I promise you.

[alhoon]

Like in Rome if the military is not fed (payed) then the military will turn. Its only a matter of time I promise you.

tell me again; why is it ok to use food as a bargaining chip?

That.

The most interesting question to arise out of all of this, though, is how loyal the army will remain to the regime if it can't even put food on the table. Considering the army is essentially the core of North Korean society, if dissent starts to seriously afflict it, we could -- hopefully -- start to see the signs of rebellion against the regime.

As tens of thousands of children will die from starvation first and then hundreds of thousands will die in the rebellion.
Do the West hates NK so much that is willing to allow that happen?

[War lord]

I see either China propping up NK and turning it into a puppet state or China simply taking over.That is of course assuming we're seeing the whole picture.

[brandbll]

I see either China propping up NK and turning it into a puppet state or China simply taking over.That is of course assuming we're seeing the whole picture.

China has stated that they don't have anywhere near the control over North Korea that anyone thinks, and i tend to believe that. As a matter of fact, i think that China is almost attempting to distance themselves from North Korea. The country is a complete and utter disaster, and there is nothing there that would lead me to believe that China would want to take on the gigantic burden of "propping them up".

Hell, there's people in South Korea who don't want to reunite simply because the economic burden it would put on their country. It's widely spread by people/the media that China is so buddy-buddy with North Korea. Yet China's economy benefits immensly more from South Korea than it does North Korea. Neither country is looking forward to the day when they are going to have to face this mess.

[MathiasOfAthens]

China would do it simply because a large group of refugees would otherwise stream across the border flooding China.

[Jom]

Nothing that comes out of North Korea in terms of how bad the conditions are there surprises me any more. People take great risks to try and cross the border into China and a large number are living there even now. Considering that these risks are heightened by the fact that China has on ongoing agreement with Pyongyang that it will repatriate any North Koreans found to be in China illegally, you can start to get an indication of the desperation people in North Korea must be facing. Those who are repatriated face many years in forced labour camps or even death, but when death will come from starvation anyway I suppose these people think that they have nothing left to lose, because they would die if they stayed behind anyway.

The most interesting question to arise out of all of this, though, is how loyal the army will remain to the regime if it can't even put food on the table. Considering the army is essentially the core of North Korean society, if dissent starts to seriously afflict it, we could -- hopefully -- start to see the signs of rebellion against the regime.