Slow down the expansion

[ITC]

How can we do this?

I play with Gracul's AI, vh/vh, Devy's Real Rebellion, Longer assimilation, 2TPY;
but it doesn't help. After 40 turns map looks like this:



No Khwarezm, Cumans - that's ok. But we nerely lost also Fatimids, Leon, Portugal, Aragon, Byz, Poland, Denmark and Lithuania. It's just 40 turns.

I try to make roleplay and not to expand much, only to keep ~ historical area. But it seems like soon I'd stand only against Mongols, France (or Moors) and may be Viking Power (only because it's unreachable to mongols).

So what can we do to slow down the process?

[Ichon]

That doesn't look too bad. Only real surprises are Fatimids. If you are HRE it looks like you took out Genoa which took pressure off Sicily and Moors. Did you help Crusader States or the AI did that as well? How large do you expect Portugal to be on turn 40? They have full amount now. Scotland is still alive though might end soon. Same with Denmark. The real rebellion mod usually takes awhile to have many effects.

The map and a few factions could be better balanced but most of the time its not too bad. Late campaign and you are HRE means your own playing will affect map greatly.

[ITC]

Yes, you are right about Genoa and HRE effect on the game. Crusaders, I've helped them a bit during The Crusade. But others are close to fall.

Portugal

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Leon

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Aragon

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Poland

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Scotland

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Denmark

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Sorry for screenshots, can't figure out why resolution is not 1980x1020

[Henry X]

Intriguing to say the least.

[The Source]

moors quite often take all the iberia in most campaigns
as for aragon, well we know how france is in the late era
and norway is just one of those random factions who turn out to be superpowers

[SantaMarc]

I've been playing a long time now, also trying to preserve as most factions as possible until the late game, so i am able to fight them with their late game roster, and for variety too.

I've managed to have quite some of them surviving, especially in italy and mid europe, by some tricks.

First of all, keeping alliances sometimes sometimes in my games did create powerblocks throughout europe, which did not break up for a long time (surprisingly!) and kept the whole early stage of the game relatively quiet with little changes on the map.

If you are playing HRE it's easier that for others, but in general the problem is one AI faction anihillating others. You can "break" that behavior by putting yourself as buffer between them, for example: if you own that fortress of Hamburg you are able to effectively block any major wars between the scandinavians and HRE (assuming you don't play as HRE or Denmark). The same goes for that venetian castle near Rome, which effectively blocks Sicily from the rest of italy. There are also not much ways to pass the alpes from italy to north, so you can block passages there by placing a small army (if you have friendly relations with both neighbors there you will most likely not get attacked) to prevent italy or HRE from attacking each other. That's also possible at several other places over the map, like in Spain where i managed to keep the status quo by this for some time: if i noticed that portugal was about to be overrun i bribed an army (without general) where i got 1 or 2 soldiers, which i placed then on bridges to prevent portugals opponent to move any further. Usually that helps the AI much to get back on its feet. I usually do this if one of my allies is under pressure.

If you have too much money, you are always free to bribe some AI forces away, but usually i am spent after one such action.

Also, by aiding some faction with money, you are able to influence the game to some extend, like keeping the crusader states alive a little bit longer.

And finally: If one faction gets too strong, you are always able to use crusades to manipulate the outcome, having called one on Bagdhad which just got overrun by mongols did bind so much of their forces that the seljuks lived a little bit longer...

of course: for some factions it's just not possible to survive long: Cumans, Kwarezmian, Scots and Teutonic order (or Lithuania) usually are the first ones to go in my games...

[Dahoota]

Well this is Gracul's AI - kinda to be expected. If you want a slower, more historical game try Savage or perhaps Lusted's AI and use BGR IV

[ITC]

No-no, it's all ok with aggressiveness, other AI's are boring.
I think we have something to do with conquering regions, this should be not that fast.

SantaMarc, ya I try to save them too, but it's not enough.

[PerXX]

So, you want the AI to be aggressive, but not successfully conquer regions? How would you propose that would work?

[ITC]

I doubt that it is possible technically in MTW2.
Public order should not depend only from governer + units in the settlement but from all summary forces in the region.
If the region is invaded with enemy, then you have to gather your own forces there, otherwise you'd lose public control and the region would fall into a chaos and anarchy. That would be rather realistic because no one would respect the authority that admitted such situation.
But when agressor managed to take the settlement, he should be forced to keep ~ 2-3 full army stacks in that region for at least 3-5 turns and additionally, to get rid of all units of faction-defender in the region.

P.S. Too difficult for my poor english )

[k/t]

Reduce the pool sizes and replenishment rates.

[bɑne]

How can we do this?

I play with Gracul's AI,

Leads to more rapid expansion of the AI.

vh/vh,

Also leads to a more rapid expansion...

Devy's Real Rebellion

No effect, afaik.

Longer assimilation

A playeronly feature. Does nothing to slow down AI expansion.

, 2TPY;

No effect.

but it doesn't help.

Naturally.

So what can we do to slow down the process?

• As Dahoota and PerXX said pick a different CAI
• Lower your campaign difficulty
• As k/t said reduce the pool sizes and replenishment rates.
• Reduce the kings purses, increase squalor, reduce farm and trade income (Warning, some factions may not handle this well)

[ITC]

• As Dahoota and PerXX said pick a different CAI
• Lower your campaign difficulty
• As k/t said reduce the pool sizes and replenishment rates.
• Reduce the kings purses, increase squalor, reduce farm and trade income (Warning, some factions may not handle this well)

Differen AI, yes could help but not that I'd like )
Lower difficulty - grrrrr....
Reduced pool sizes - how could it help? The effect to both the agressor and defender.
Replenishment is already reduced to a very low rate in MSC submod 2TPY. For example: Feudal foot knights - 1 unit in ~ 12 turns.
Less money for the AI? But they are already always poor and very poor.

Is this impossible?

[Ichon]

Reduced pool sizes as AI does not use its armies efficiently. Less armies means slower expansion. Half of what the AI faces in conquests is not enemy AI armies but simply moving its armies to the right places and maintaining sieges.

Replenishment is basically the same leading to less armies.

I'm not sure money would have as big affect unless letting AI go bankrupt but then other problem arise as when you capture an AI settlement 100 turns into the campaign they only built a few buildings.

Personally I think adjusting map is making things a bit better. AI capitol and center regions should be castles- as it is now losing castles on a border region can mean 2 cities or more less of recruits for the losing AI and that much more for the attacking AI. Also a bit better split of regions between factions similar to RW's map.

Its probably not a single solution but should be possible to slow it down- how much is guess though.

[ITC]

Personally I think adjusting map is making things a bit better. AI capitol and center regions should be castles- as it is now losing castles on a border region can mean 2 cities or more less of recruits for the losing AI and that much more for the attacking AI. Also a bit better split of regions between factions similar to RW's map.

Its probably not a single solution but should be possible to slow it down- how much is guess though.

Good idea.

As for now, I gonna try:

Savage Gracul's AI
Low stack size
A bit improved city defenses in descr_walls, up to 15-20%.
Slower movement - 10%

Additionally:
Reduced assasin and spy effectivness for a human player.
Changed population levels (cause I'm afraid of changing squalor parameters, too complicated)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

<population_levels>
<!-- city -->
<level name="village" base="500" upgrade="1000" min="500" max="1500"/>
<level name="town" base="1000" upgrade="4500" min="500" max="5500"/>
<level name="large_town" base="4500" upgrade="15500" min="500" max="20000"/>
<level name="city" base="15500" upgrade="25500" min="500" max="30000"/>
<level name="large_city" base="25500" upgrade="35000" min="500" max="60000"/>
<level name="huge_city" base="35000" min="500" max="500000"/>
<!-- castle -->
<level name="moot_and_bailey" base="1000" upgrade="2000" min="500" max="2500"/>
<level name="wooden_castle" base="2000" upgrade="5000" min="500" max="6500"/>
<level name="castle" base="5000" upgrade="12000" min="500" max="14000"/>
<level name="fortress" base="12000" upgrade="24000" min="500" max="25500"/>
<level name="citadel" base="24000" min="500" max="30000"/>
</population_levels>

Though, don't know how to reduce replenishment by 20%, except changing entire export_descr_buildings file.

[k/t]

Yeah, that's how you would change it.

Does improving the toughness of the walls actually do anything in autocalc?

[ITC]

Does improving the toughness of the walls actually do anything in autocalc?

Honestly I doubt it, but whatever...
And I thought I've reduced movement points, that was mistake, movement rate is still the same.

[k/t]

If you change the replenishment rates in the EDB, I think it's important to change them in the EDU too. I'm not sure, but you should find out before starting the work, so you know exactly how much you're biting off.

[ITC]

I am afraid of changing replenishment rates, it requires much of expirience. I could break the balance.

[k/t]

Reduce them by half for all units except for Late Professionals, whose replenishment rates you should reduce to 1/4 of what they are now, as they are too available in the current RR/RC. The next version will change that.