A quick criticism of the Ability Tree's

[Fuzzynut]

I have found the majority of the trees to be useful only in a RP sense, i.e. the rank 4 Ninja ability to add subterfuge to Establishing Criminal Networks, an almost useless ability. Anyone ever use that? I can see if maybe you put the good stuff that everyone goes for, like assassination up to Rank 4, instead of having a bunch of ninja's in a couple turns that have 40-50% chances to take out Daimyo and General's. Easy stuff like this should be concentrated on for the next game, I know CA doesn't update and patch their games properly and so don't expect anything for this iteration, possibly spend a bit more in playtesting the next game before releasing it?

Were the guys play-testing this like, "Oh! Awesome, I am Rank 4 on my Ninja now and can park him in a city to get a bit better LOS!!"

There are a ton of these throughout the all the trees, General and Technology included. The Sumo Wrestling, anyone? Have any mods been made yet that can adjust/modify these trees properly or is that out of the question so TCA could scrape a few more bucks from the one or two minor DLC's we can expect?

[MikkOwl]

The criminal networks ability is actually useful. For many hundreds of hours, I did not ever bother using it. But lately I have explored it.

Of course, only in border provinces. But with large, hostile/aggressive neighbors who may suddenly turn their attention to you at any time, being able to see deep into their territory is useful. Can see what their provinces are like, their army size and movements, some of their agents, observe how battles play out between them and others they may be at war with (perhaps and ally of yours). Opportunities will present themselves that you would not be aware of otherwise.

The effect goes from the borders of your province, so the larger your own province, the more you can cover. The ability is also especially useful in the central parts of Japan, where provinces are small and there is always much going on. The effect also at least partially stacks, so several higher level ninjas can be put into the same castle town.

The ability "Scout Army" is as far as I know completely useless against the AI. Only twice EVER did the AI try to demoralize some troops of mine, and both were after 500 hours of gameplay. It is unclear if the ability gives longer campaign move distance, but it seems not. This is a problem of the AI not using agents properly, and not with the skill tree itself.

[Fuzzynut]

Completely understand, I figured that may be a decent use for it, I always just constantly move my ninjas around enemy territory and rarely am caught by surprise. I have never noticed a dramatic difference in the size of the fog removal when establishing a network, possibly because I never chose that skill up.

[wealthmonger]

The Sumo Wrestling, anyone?

The Sumo Tournament can be good if you've been turtling for a while and your provinces have high wealth. Then just before RD you learn it. Although close to half of the tax boost gets eaten up in administration costs. It's still good at that point since you'll be relying less on trade and more on tax revenue for the final push.

[Fuzzynut]

The Sumo Tournament can be good if you've been turtling for a while and your provinces have high wealth. Then just before RD you learn it. Although close to half of the tax boost gets eaten up in administration costs. It's still good at that point since you'll be relying less on trade and more on tax revenue for the final push.

Well, Realm Divide, you know when it is going to happen. I simply save up cash beforehand, then the first few provinces I take over I vassal and set up lasting trade agreements until the game is over. I have beaten the campaign multiple times now on Hard and money is a non-issue after the first 20 turns or so. Build Trade Ships, bribe Trade Agreements, Take over a Gold province, profit for the rest of the game...

Look, I know they have very odd situational uses, I can understand that. But, my point...60-70% of them are not optimal or even exciting really, as I have displayed in the two examples you guys have brought up.

Establish Criminal Network. Why? I can move my ninja around enemy territory and still USE him when I want. I can see maybe on a rare occasion you would be sandwiched on all sides in a small area, and possibly only have one ninja (for some weird reason). But, that should rarely happen to you once you understand the game mechanics unless you started like that or were trying to Role Play as I stated originally.

You can get excited about unlocking new buildings, units, abilities, etc, but +1 happiness across all provinces and +5% tax rate is boring and unnecessary from my experience. You should be aiming for trade money until RD. You can easy get 100k saved up which should hold a huge army until you take Kyoto.

One more thing, imagine 5 ninjas with all assassin skills (the easiest ones to get) running around the map, its like a death zone for AI, I feel bad for them, way too easy to assassinate someone, even a daimyo and for like 500 koku? Even if you fail a couple times, you still dealt a huge blow taking out their best generals and it's far better than losing a ninja (which rarely happens) if you fail once or twice or parking him in your armies for the "scouting" bonus, bleh.

Once again, let me reiterate that I enjoy this game, and I don't want to come off as a hater. My next campaign is going to be using all the stuff I wouldn't normally use and see how it goes. Should be interesting. I will update you all. Which clan should I try? I have beaten on Uesugi and Date so far. I may be forced to try a harder difficulty I guess so the strategies don't get stale, but I am assuming that you just use the same general strat regardless and would make the non-optimal abilities, tech even more impractical.

[Ying, Duke of Qin]

Doesn't the criminal network thing also decreases the chances of them sabotaging you successfully? Or is it LOS only?

[Fuzzynut]

Doesn't the criminal network thing also decreases the chances of them sabotaging you successfully? Or is it LOS only?

I think that is if you have a metsuke stationed there. Either way, why not have your ninja ASSASSINATE his! Double win!

[wealthmonger]

Look, I know they have very odd situational uses, I can understand that. But, my point...60-70% of them are not optimal or even exciting really, as I have displayed in the two examples you guys have brought up.

I know what you mean. I've played enough to where I usually skip all the minor ones. Secret Police, why get a pathetic discount on Metsuke actions when I have plenty of Koku. Newer players will still find them useful for a time.

[Fuzzynut]

I know what you mean. I've played enough to where I usually skip all the minor ones. Secret Police, why get a pathetic discount on Metsuke actions when I have plenty of Koku. Newer players will still find them useful for a time.

Thanks. I was wondering if I was going to get a steady stream of people telling me how they used such and such obscure ability once in such and such obscure situation to refute my OP. I was gonna pull my hair out.

When I didnt understand the optimal strategy, ya, I thought they might be useful, well, even then I was skeptical of Secret Police, heh. I am sure it is nice if you wanted to RP a bribe campaign or something, but even then, you can still get rich enough that -20% cost to his actions are a drop in the bucket.

[wealthmonger]

I think that is if you have a metsuke stationed there. Either way, why not have your ninja ASSASSINATE his! Double win!

This is slightly off topic but close. I've started to send out wolf packs. A Ninja, monk and Metsuke traveling together covering each other while they level up.

Either that or a Ninja, Monk and Metsuke walk into a bar the monk distracts the bartender with a prayer, The Ninja assassinates him and the Metsuke tell's the patrons to move along there's nothing to see here. No wait the first part is right!

[old_dude]

This is slightly off topic but close. I've started to send out wolf packs. A Ninja, monk and Metsuke traveling together covering each other while they level up.

Either that or a Ninja, Monk and Metsuke walk into a bar the monk distracts the bartender with a prayer, The Ninja assassinates him and the Metsuke tell's the patrons to move along there's nothing to see here. No wait the first part is right!

I do that too. But you tell it better.

[Fuzzynut]

^^

That's just mean, bro. Poor AI :`(

[eXistenZ]

Btw, how many turns does it take to set up a criminal network? i have never used, i rather use my ninjas for sabotaging/assassinations/scouting

[Akusa]

I always send out a probe to scout the enemy after the first pylon.

[Charsi]

I always send out a probe to scout the enemy after the first pylon.

lmao

[Fuzzynut]

^^ So glad I stopped playing that game.

[Xelathur]

CA didn't playtest the perks for ninjas enough. They need to boost Criminal Networks ( a ninja placed in the enemy border-provinces are always better )

[Bolkonsky]

Moved to Gameplay Discussion.

[Snipafist]

yeah there definitely seem to be a good number of "meh" perks. They'd be great in a support role or for cornercase scenarios, but only receiving 2 points per level leaves you so starved for points that they're almost always not worth it. If characters received 3 points/level, that might be different...

[xploring]

Have any mods been made yet that can adjust/modify these trees properly or is that out of the question so TCA could scrape a few more bucks from the one or two minor DLC's we can expect?

Radious modified some of the research bonus

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=441595

Calligraphy - diplomacy bonus 25 (vanilla was 20), clan income trade mod 35 (vanilla was 30)
Loyalty Noh - general loyalty bonus 2 (vanilla was 1)
Secret Police - agent action cost Metsuke -25 (vanilla was -20)
Essence of the Spirit - agent action cost Monk, Ikko Monk and Missionary -25 (vanilla was -20, -10, -20)
Chonindo - food provision 3 (vanilla was 2)
The Five Elements - general aoe 25 (vanilla was 20)
Tax Reform - tax income bonus 7 (vanilla was 5)
Tea Ceremony - diplomacy bonus 15 (vanilla was 10), daimyo honour 2 (vanilla was 1)
Sumo Tournament - tax income bonus 3 (vanilla was 2), regional happiness 2 (vanilla was 1)