Swiss/Papal Guard

[ziserman]

I hope this hasn't been asked before, but how come Papal Guard and Swiss Guard units can't rout? Did they really never rout historically? And then what about other factions' elite/royal units, who also thought they were defending God's representative on Earth?

[Ichon]

As far as I know Swiss only routed once- near the end of their era. For the previous 300 years they were forced to retreat a few times but always withdrew in good order. So having them as morale lock is debatable but within reason. Most other elite have high morale but I'm not remembering any others with locked morale. Papal Guard has it as well but I think they are supposed to be a mix of Swiss and N Italians.

[David93]

know of any one else who never routed?

[Ichon]

know of any one else who never routed?

Sure there were plenty but none with nearly as long a record and as many engagements as the Swiss.

[David93]

vangarian guard? were there any others close to the swiss?

[k/t]

Templars.

And Optimus Prime.

[ziserman]

So Swiss Guard never retreated except once. What about Papal guard? Have they retreated history-wise?

And what if their leader died in battle?

[TheHarazzer]

What about the Janissaries

[misterbull]

What about the Janissaries

They probably have. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissa...nd_disbandment

I know that the Mamluks were initially gods among men in the battlefield, but just they eventually corrupted as well. Janissaries would be the Ottoman counterpart of that.

[recentiy03]

Why can't Swiss Guard be recruited as mercenaries in the region? I've taken a few classes on the history of Italy, and while I don't specifically recall the Swiss Guard being used by France, Florence or Milan, surely it happened, as they were constantly recruiting new mercenaries.

[Ichon]

Why can't Swiss Guard be recruited as mercenaries in the region? I've taken a few classes on the history of Italy, and while I don't specifically recall the Swiss Guard being used by France, Florence or Milan, surely it happened, as they were constantly recruiting new mercenaries.

Swiss Pikemen can be recruited as mercenaries. Swiss Guard were employed by the Pope only. Although as a group they were quite small. Rarely more than 250 Swiss Guard whereas the Swiss Cantons fielded mercenary armies over 15,000 and could call up 40,000 to defend the Cantons.

So in the game its a bit backwards- the Pope has no limit on Swiss Guard and I've seen him make over 30 units of them if he gets a few cities in Italy. Whereas I don't there are ever more than 4-5 units of Swiss pikemen available in all regions. I usually figure each 100 men in the game actually represent about 500 in history. So a 2,000 man army is more like a 10,000 man army historically. Roughly then there should be 30 units of Swiss mercenaries available. That seems too many for gameplay reasons and also historically Swiss refused to fight each other. I'd be fine if there were 2 of both types of Swiss available in Swiss, N Italy, E France, and only 1 of each in S Germany. That would be 4 mercenary AORs in game so 14 max of Swiss available.

[Lord Oakenthrone]

Swiss Pikemen can be recruited as mercenaries. Swiss Guard were employed by the Pope only. Although as a group they were quite small. Rarely more than 250 Swiss Guard whereas the Swiss Cantons fielded mercenary armies over 15,000 and could call up 40,000 to defend the Cantons.

So in the game its a bit backwards- the Pope has no limit on Swiss Guard and I've seen him make over 30 units of them if he gets a few cities in Italy. Whereas I don't there are ever more than 4-5 units of Swiss pikemen available in all regions. I usually figure each 100 men in the game actually represent about 500 in history. So a 2,000 man army is more like a 10,000 man army historically. Roughly then there should be 30 units of Swiss mercenaries available. That seems too many for gameplay reasons and also historically Swiss refused to fight each other. I'd be fine if there were 2 of both types of Swiss available in Swiss, N Italy, E France, and only 1 of each in S Germany. That would be 4 mercenary AORs in game so 14 max of Swiss available.

perhaps to lower the amount of Swiss Guard the AI produce, maybe disable the ability to build them and replace them instead of the Royal Bodyguard for the Papacy's generals default units?

[Ichon]

perhaps to lower the amount of Swiss Guard the AI produce, maybe disable the ability to build them and replace them instead of the Royal Bodyguard for the Papacy's generals default units?

I am have mixed feelings- its quite fun to battle the Pope when it has a decent amount of Swiss Guards but it currently has unlimited ability to produce them. Royal BG is actually more historically accurate though. Perhaps making the Swiss Guards either BG or limiting production to only Rome. (or Capitol of Papal States) Papal Guard is still pretty strong and never retreats either so that might be enough to still make Rome feared but not the absolute blood bath most battles with the Pope turn out to be now when 6 units of Swiss Guard and 6 of Papal Guard are not uncommon.

If Swiss Guard were the Pope's BG that might actually make some battles more difficult as now as cavalry it is easy to lure Pope and BG away and kill then the entire army other than Swiss and Papal Guards will rout leaving only those to be eliminated. If have to kill the Pope protected by Swiss Guards with some bonuses of BG the entire Papal army is likely to fight longer despite having fewer Swiss Guard units the Papal Guards and other components of the army will keep fighting.

[Lord Oakenthrone]

heheh Im getting flashbacks of the overpowered heavy armoured pikes in MTW1 , seeing as the Swiss guard have morale lock :-p

however it would be Interesting, ive never imagined any pope to be on horseback charging into battle, but rather hiding in some super defensive cowardly pope friendly phalanx or such?

[Henry X]

I'm just waiting for the longbowmen mercenaries as Germany.

[Ichon]

I'm just waiting for the longbowmen mercenaries as Germany.

Free Company mercenaries are already in the game. They are about the same quality as regular longbowmen. Not as good as retinue but better than any other archers available to Catholics except Scots Guard and Pesante Fanteria.

[Henry X]

I mean I'm waiting for them to be available to buy. They'll make my conquest of southern France and Italy much more efficient.

[ITC]

Mongols had not a routing as an option )

[misterbull]

Mongols had not a routing as an option )

LOL, but they sometimes hid when losing against the Mamluks.

[Gogolometro]

Jannisaries was beaten not only once, and they rout. The hungarians did fight them, wallachians and moldavians do it to. The tactic of ottomans was really simple imperial army tactic, send allys like serbian cavalry, send the albanians, send the persian cavalry, the tatars, send auxiliary troops, send the azabs, send the spahi fast cavalry. The yeni ceri enter in battle the last, after the enemy was eshausted. But this not mean the Huniad regent of hungary can not beat them at Belgrad, or even less interestind principes from wallachian and moldavian lands. Yeni ceri was an elite strong army core of turks, they manage to won a lot of battles, but this not mean they cannot lose and rout.

Probably the swiss are best coice for morale lockdown. In my opinion something close can be apply to templars and saint John knights. These guys fight to death and retreat like tactical decion, not routing.