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Thread: The Irrationality of Richard Dawkins, by FJ Beckwith

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  1. #1

    Default The Irrationality of Richard Dawkins, by FJ Beckwith

    A rather old, but still interesting piece of writing I found on First Things. Enjoy .

    http://www.firstthings.com/onthesqua...y-of-richard-d

    In his 2006 book, The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins laments the career path of Kurt Wise, who has, since 2006, held the positions of professor of science and theology and director of the Center for Theology and Science at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. Prior to that, Wise had taught for many years at Bryan College, a small evangelical college in Dayton, Tennessee, named after William Jennings Bryan, three-time Democratic presidential candidate and associate counsel in the 1925 Scopes "Monkey Trial."

    According to Dawkins, Wise was at one time a promising young scholar who had earned a degree in geology (from the University of Chicago) and advanced degrees in geology and paleontology from Harvard University, where he studied under the highly acclaimed Stephen Jay Gould. Wise is also a young-earth creationist, which means that he accepts a literal interpretation of the first chapters of Genesis and maintains that the earth is less than ten thousand years old. It is not a position I hold, and for that reason I am sympathetic to Dawkins' bewilderment at why Wise has embraced what appears to many Christians to be a false choice between one controversial interpretation of Scripture (young-earth creationism) and abandoning Christianity altogether.

    At one point in his career, Wise began to understand that his reading of Scripture was inconsistent with the dominant scientific understanding of the age of the earth and the cosmos. Instead of abandoning what I believe is a false choice, he continued to embrace it, but this lead to a crisis of faith. Wise writes: "Either the Scripture was true and evolution was wrong or evolution was true and I must toss out the Bible. . . . It was there that night that I accepted the Word of God and rejected all that would ever counter it, including evolution. With that, in great sorrow, I tossed into the fire all my dreams and hopes in science." So Wise abandoned the possibility of securing a professorship at a prestigious research university or institute.

    Dawkins is disturbed by Wise's judgment and its repercussions on his obvious promise as a scholar, researcher, and teacher. Writes Dawkins: "I find that terribly sad . . . the Kurt Wise story is just plain pathetic—pathetic and contemptible. The wound, to his career and his life's happiness, was self-inflicted, so unnecessary, so easy to escape. . . . I am hostile to religion because of what it did to Kurt Wise. And if it did that to a Harvard educated geologist, just think what it can do to others less gifted and less well armed."

    Of course, some Christians may be just as troubled as Dawkins. So one need not be an atheist to raise legitimate questions about Professor's Wise's intellectual and spiritual journey. But, given Dawkins' atheism, there is something odd about his lament, for it seems to require that Dawkins accept something about the nature of human beings and the natural moral law that his atheism seems to reject.

    Let me explain what I mean. Dawkins harshly criticizes Wise for embracing a religious belief that results in Wise's not treating himself and his talents, intelligence, and abilities in a way appropriate for their full flourishing. That is, given the opportunity to hone and nurture certain gifts—for example, intellectual skill—no one, including Wise, should waste them as a result of accepting a false belief. The person who violates, or helps violate, this norm, according to Dawkins, should be condemned, and we should all bemoan this tragic moral neglect on the part of our fellow(s). But the issuing of that judgment on Wise by Dawkins makes sense only in light of Wise's particular talents and the sort of being Wise is by nature, a being who Dawkins seems to believe possesses certain intrinsic capacities and purposes, the premature disruption of which would be an injustice.

    So the human being who wastes his talents is one who does not respect his natural gifts or the basic capacities whose maturation and proper employment make possible the flourishing of many goods. In other words, the notion of "proper function," as Alvin Plantinga puts it, coupled with the observation that certain perfections grounded in basic capacities have been impermissibly obstructed from maturing, is assumed in the very judgment Dawkins makes about Wise and the way by which Wise should treat himself.

    But Dawkins, in fact, does not actually believe that living beings, including human beings, have intrinsic purposes or are designed so that one may conclude that violating one's proper function amounts to a violation of one's moral duty to oneself. Dawkins has maintained for decades that the natural world only appears to be designed. He writes in The God Delusion: "Darwin and his successors have shown how living creatures, with their spectacular statistical improbability and appearance of design, have evolved by slow, gradual degrees from simple beginnings. We can now safely say that the illusion of design in living creatures is just that—an illusion."

    But this means that his lament for Wise is misguided, for Dawkins is lamenting what only appears to be Wise's dereliction of his duty to nurture and employ his gifts in ways that result in his happiness and an acquisition of knowledge that contributes to the common good. Yet because there are no designed natures and no intrinsic purposes, and thus no natural duties that we are obligated to obey, the intuitions that inform Dawkins' judgment of Wise are as illusory as the design he explicitly rejects. But that is precisely one of the grounds by which Dawkins suggests that theists are irrational and ought to abandon their belief in God.

    So if the theist is irrational for believing in God based on what turns out to be pseudo-design, Dawkins is irrational in his judgment of Wise and other creationists whom he targets for reprimand and correction. For Dawkins' judgment rests on a premise that—although uncompromisingly maintained throughout his career—only appears to be true.

    Francis J. Beckwith is an associate professor of Philosophy & Church-State Studies at Baylor University. His most recent book is Defending Life: A Moral and Legal Case Against Abortion Choice (Cambridge University Press, 2007).
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  2. #2

    Default Re: The Irrationality of Richard Dawkins, by FJ Beckwith

    But Dawkins is not an atheist, he just denies the probability of a god in the mold of the biblical god or a god based on any of the holy books of the world actually existing. Just because Dawkins doesn't believe in a designed purpose doesn't mean he thinks life has no purpose. Failing to see how this article somehow exposes Dawkins as irrational. You could attack him much more soundly on other things he has said, but I'm not seeing this one.
    Last edited by Pontifex Maximus; June 23, 2011 at 06:24 PM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: The Irrationality of Richard Dawkins, by FJ Beckwith

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    But Dawkins is not an atheist, he just denies the probability of a god in the mold of the biblical god or a god based on any of the holy books of the world actually existing. Just because Dawkins doesn't believe in a designed purpose doesn't mean he thinks life has no purpose. Failing to see how this article somehow exposes Dawkins as irrational. You could attack him much more soundly on other things he has said, but I'm not seeing this one.
    They like red herrings. Nothing much can be done about that.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  4. #4

    Default Re: The Irrationality of Richard Dawkins, by FJ Beckwith

    @Pontifex Maximus,

    Quote:
    "But Dawkins is not an atheist, he just denies the probability of a god in the mold of the biblical god or a god based on any of the holy books of the world actually existing. Just because Dawkins doesn't believe in a designed purpose doesn't mean he thinks life has no purpose."

    First of all, DOES Dawkins really understand what the Greek & Hebrew/Aramaic of the New & Old Testament (Tanakh) really mean? Probably NO. DOES Dawkins understand Sanscrit or Pali, the Language of "Hinduism" & Buddhism? Probably NO.

    ANYONE and their brother/sister can say "I believe that life has a purpose."
    Is this "purpose" a naturalistic one or not? WHAT is the qualifier to "purpose" one's life upon on "in" per se?

    Come Ponty, You know better than that!

    Riiight....
    hellas1.5

  5. #5
    Lord Romanus III's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: The Irrationality of Richard Dawkins, by FJ Beckwith

    Quote Originally Posted by hellas1 View Post
    @Pontifex Maximus,

    Quote:
    "But Dawkins is not an atheist, he just denies the probability of a god in the mold of the biblical god or a god based on any of the holy books of the world actually existing. Just because Dawkins doesn't believe in a designed purpose doesn't mean he thinks life has no purpose."

    First of all, DOES Dawkins really understand what the Greek & Hebrew/Aramaic of the New & Old Testament (Tanakh) really mean? Probably NO. DOES Dawkins understand Sanscrit or Pali, the Language of "Hinduism" & Buddhism? Probably NO.

    ANYONE and their brother/sister can say "I believe that life has a purpose."
    Is this "purpose" a naturalistic one or not? WHAT is the qualifier to "purpose" one's life upon on "in" per se?

    Come Ponty, You know better than that!

    Riiight....
    hellas1.5
    You make me think of all the special people in the world.

    I don't think you can determine an objective basis for proving a purpose in life. But in regards to the continuance of the human species, I'd say that it would be promotion of the longevity and health of our species.

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hellas1 View Post
    @Pontifex Maximus,


    First of all, DOES Dawkins really understand what the Greek & Hebrew/Aramaic of the New & Old Testament (Tanakh) really mean? Probably NO. DOES Dawkins understand Sanscrit or Pali, the Language of "Hinduism" & Buddhism? Probably NO.
    So what? Whether I can speak the language in which a ghost story is told does not change the character of the story. Now that I am a big boy, none of them scare me anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viscount Bolingbroke View Post
    Are you saying that our actions should be judged according to what is useful to future generations? How does that follow logically? ?
    Who will be judging the usefulness of our actions but future generations?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean de la Valette View Post
    But Religion is eternal, whatever forms it may assume into a given place or time.
    Superstition is as eternal as ignorance and fear. Banish them, and breath freely.
    Last edited by God-Emperor of Mankind; June 25, 2011 at 06:41 AM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: The Irrationality of Richard Dawkins, by FJ Beckwith

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    But Dawkins is not an atheist, he just denies the probability of a god in the mold of the biblical god or a god based on any of the holy books of the world actually existing. Just because Dawkins doesn't believe in a designed purpose doesn't mean he thinks life has no purpose. Failing to see how this article somehow exposes Dawkins as irrational. You could attack him much more soundly on other things he has said, but I'm not seeing this one.
    To put matters into sheer simplicity:

    1 - Dawkins denies any teleological immanence in nature.
    2 - Dawkins claims that state of art Evolutionary Science denies any teleological immanence in nature.
    3 - Dawkins attributes teleological immanence to people's lives.
    4 - Dawkins contradicts himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere
    In short the mighty Zeus may pass into dust, but the humble Archimedes Screw is eternal.
    ... Belief in endless material progress and the immanentist deification of technique as a purpose for the mere sake of itself is very recent, and may pass into dust, just like belief in Zeus. But Religion is eternal, whatever forms it may assume into a given place or time.

    Good article Jean! In a way it reminds me of a discussion I once had with a friend a few years ago in high school. He claimed that each person can decide what their own happiness or purpose is and be perfectly correct and right.
    Subjectivism is an absolute denying all absolutes. So yes, it's very much self-contradictory and illogical.
    Last edited by Marie Louise von Preussen; June 23, 2011 at 10:39 PM.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  8. #8

    Default Re: The Irrationality of Richard Dawkins, by FJ Beckwith

    Quote Originally Posted by Zom View Post
    Superstition is as eternal as ignorance and fear. Banish them, and breath freely.
    Therefore, we must banish Dawkins! (Lol)
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  9. #9
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    Default Re: The Irrationality of Richard Dawkins, by FJ Beckwith

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean de la Valette View Post
    Subjectivism is an absolute denying all absolutes. So yes, it's very much self-contradictory and illogical.
    People do not understand Hegel. It's as simple as that.

    Under the Patronage of
    Maximinus Thrax

  10. #10

    Default Re: The Irrationality of Richard Dawkins, by FJ Beckwith

    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius Gothicus View Post
    People do not understand Hegel. It's as simple as that.
    I owe much to Hegel .
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

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    Default Re: The Irrationality of Richard Dawkins, by FJ Beckwith

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean de la Valette View Post
    I owe much to Hegel .
    You should, quite an awesome dude.

    Under the Patronage of
    Maximinus Thrax

  12. #12

    Default Re: The Irrationality of Richard Dawkins, by FJ Beckwith

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean de la Valette View Post



    ... Belief in endless material progress and the immanentist deification of technique as a purpose for the mere sake of itself is very recent, and may pass into dust, just like belief in Zeus. But Religion is eternal, whatever forms it may assume into a given place or time.


    which is exactly what damns the human race to endless wars and hatred, endlessly massacring people to appease the thirst of insane priests.

  13. #13

    Default Re: The Irrationality of Richard Dawkins, by FJ Beckwith

    So, by this article concludes that both R.Dawkins and Theism and irrational? I'm not Mr. Dawkins, so that conclusion works fine for me.

  14. #14

    Default Re: The Irrationality of Richard Dawkins, by FJ Beckwith

    @ Hellas

    What?

  15. #15

    Default Re: The Irrationality of Richard Dawkins, by FJ Beckwith

    To get to the heart of the matter, did ancient Greek priests make the most of their lives? Where their formulations on how to please the God's useful to subsequent generations? Did the passing of their theology, rituals and beliefs set humanity back?

    Compare this to loss of Archimedes development of a form of infinite summation, something not matched until Newton and Leibinitz came along 2,000 years later.

    Dawkin's as an atheist puts Kurt Wise into the same category as those long forgotten ancient priests, when Wise could have been something more like Archimedes. Religions will come and go and are of little long term value because they are made up. In contrast, our understanding of reality is of unparalleled value because what is real today will be real 2,000 years in the future.

    In short the mighty Zeus may pass into dust, but the humble Archimedes Screw is eternal.
    Last edited by Sphere; June 23, 2011 at 08:07 PM.

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    Default Re: The Irrationality of Richard Dawkins, by FJ Beckwith

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    To get to the heart of the matter, did ancient Greek priests make the most of their lives? Where their formulations on how to please the God's useful to subsequent generations? Did the passing of their theology, rituals and beliefs set humanity back?

    Compare this to loss of Archimedes development of a form of infinite summation, something not matched until Newton and Leibinitz came along 2,000 years later.

    Dawkin's as an atheist puts Kurt Wise into the same category as those long forgotten ancient priests, when Wise could have been something more like Archimedes. Religions will come and go and are of little long term value because they are made up. In contrast, our understanding of reality is of unparalleled value because what is real today will be real 2,000 years in the future.

    In short the mighty Zeus may pass into dust, but the humble Archimedes Screw is eternal.
    Are you saying that our actions should be judged according to what is useful to future generations? How does that follow logically? And do you think it makes a difference to Archimedes whether he is remembered today?

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    Default Re: The Irrationality of Richard Dawkins, by FJ Beckwith

    Quote Originally Posted by Zom View Post
    Who will be judging the usefulness of our actions but future generations?
    If that is so, why should I (much less Archimedes or ancient priests) care about the judgment of future generations?

  18. #18

    Default Re: The Irrationality of Richard Dawkins, by FJ Beckwith

    Good article Jean! In a way it reminds me of a discussion I once had with a friend a few years ago in high school. He claimed that each person can decide what their own happiness or purpose is and be perfectly correct and right. However, he lamented that people often injure and/or kill others denying them their own individually chosen happiness. It took him a while but he eventually ended up realizing that lamenting that a murderer would kill someone violates his earlier principle that anyone can do anything they want and be happy. It's an interesting contradiction that keeps popping up in discussions all over the place and its good to recognize and denounce it wherever possible.
    "Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam." -Hannibal Barca
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  19. #19

    Default Re: The Irrationality of Richard Dawkins, by FJ Beckwith

    ... Belief in endless material progress and the immanentist deification of technique as a purpose for the mere sake of itself is very recent, and may pass into dust, just like belief in Zeus. But Religion is eternal, whatever forms it may assume into a given place or time.
    My point was that the principles of a kind like Archimedes screw existed in the billions of years before humans were around, and will continue to exist when we are gone.

    Religion would have a difficult time making the same claim, as it seems to be the invention of perhaps a handful of species which have existed for a few hundred thousand years on a planet that is 4.5 Billion years old in a universe that is 13.8 Billion years old. And even in it's miniscule length of existence it has been nothing short of fleeting, fickle and false. That's even if you believe one of the myriad of religions is actually true.

    If that is so, why should I (much less Archimedes or ancient priests) care about the judgment of future generations?
    Altruism.
    Last edited by Sphere; June 23, 2011 at 11:46 PM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: The Irrationality of Richard Dawkins, by FJ Beckwith

    As I see it, desiring for humanity to fulfill its potential requires no belief in an explicit purpose. We get one life, then we pass on to the next generation, making the most of one's life by exploiting one's fullest potential therefore becomes both a matter of self-fulfillment (which requires no explicit purpose) and the maximisation of benefit to humanity as a whole. Dawkins is merely expressing his regret that someone with considerable ability chooses to (as Dawkins sees it) waste that ability and, consequently, throw away a great potential benefit for mankind.

    There are probably plenty of genuine reasons to criticise Dawkins, but I really don't think this is one of them.
    Last edited by Jack04; June 24, 2011 at 08:13 AM.

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