Highelf spearmen - no bonus vs cavalry?

[Amorphium]

Is it my description that is bugged or do the HE spears and Lothern Seaguard not have any bonuses vs cavalry?

[Toho]

the lothren sea guard imo are the worst unit (melee wise) in the entire game, except maybe for goblins. they get absolutely decimated with charges, and when they melee with chaos warriors or even barbarians they are hardly surviving even though they have the same and twice the stats compared to the other units respectively.
in short, i am quite satisfied with the high elf spearmen.

[Shadowlair]

lothern sea guard are supposed to be soldiers primarily doing marine duties, with also coastal patrolls often included, their supposed to be a force that is good at melee and range, so im kinda dissapointed at their might, since theire supposed to be crack shots *well every elf soldier is better than almost anything the rest has*, although travel in low patroll numbers. i also have a unit of lothern seaguard miniatures, and they do well on the board as ranged or melee, so they should get some balancing so they wont get decimated by..anything above a marauder.


also must say, in the isle of blood novel, they kick some serious skaven ass, sorry for the skaven *have a large skaven force myself* but their the match of many a lesser...thing.. although they do get blown to smithereens by a mortar >:3

[The Holy Pilgrim]

Due to the engine, any missile unit fares poorly in melee (they take forever! to pull their weapons out), and that is especially true for missile units with spears.

[Amorphium]

performance issues aside, do the lother seaguard and he spears get bonuses vs cav that are just not displayed or are phoenixguards the only anti-cav highelves have?

[The Holy Pilgrim]

According to the vanilla stats, they do. Are you playing a sub-mod?

[Toho]

@Shadowlair

i had an idea on how to fix them but tell me if this is lore accurate, i would give these units very low ammunition but i will boost up their damage accordingly so this way by the time the enemy reaches them they have already ran out of arrows, did considerable damage and then they could appropriately use their spear and shields.
if Medieval 2 had an option of switching between weapons like Rome then i don't think this would have been a problem

[The_Gimp]

@Shadowlair

i had an idea on how to fix them but tell me if this is lore accurate, i would give these units very low ammunition but i will boost up their damage accordingly so this way by the time the enemy reaches them they have already ran out of arrows, did considerable damage and then they could appropriately use their spear and shields.
if Medieval 2 had an option of switching between weapons like Rome then i don't think this would have been a problem

Thats basically the best solution I can think of. It is similar to the Galadrhim Marchwardens in this Submod for Third Age. http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=323812
They are very decent against charging cavalry and spend their ammunition very fast.

I think the worst lore raping would be to make them the victims that they are in fights rather than to give them this "2 in 1" feeling.

[Cochus1]

I think that i have a solution for the spearmen, but i am not sure about if it can be aplied to the seaguard.

They could be to game efects like halberds, using the empire spearmen animations. I think that HE spearmen like pikemen can be problematic (speaking about animations).

But i dont know a solution for the seaguard

[Shadowlair]

also agree on toho's solution, wich is lore accurate at best, since they had a handfull of arrows *mostly about 20* since they were a rapid deploy patroll unit on land, and at sea the ship had most of ammo stockpiled so they never worried about ammo. but maybe inculde less than 20 volleys, since they wont shoot game-wise as fast as lore-wise

i really know to much about high elves, im a skaven fan for life :p but also have a few regiments and characters of elfs. although i think the high elves kick to much skaven ass :p more elf-things killing!

[The Holy Pilgrim]

How come your avatar is what looks like a Bretonnian knight killing Skaven rats, then? HMMMM!!!!?

I will conduct some research on what to do with the Seaguard. I'm sure I'll be able to find something.

[Cochus1]

and about the spearmen??

[The Holy Pilgrim]

Well, that goes without saying

[Cochus1]

Well, that goes without saying

Ok, and do u think that the idea that i said can be applied?? or do u have some other idea?? I think that spearmen should fight in formations

[The Holy Pilgrim]

I personally think that HE Spearmen should keep their current animations. No need to change that.

Lothern Seaguards I will have to test.

[Shadowlair]

well, maybe, hes making a last charge into the millions of skaven onfront and franticly, i need to change that picture, have a small brettonian force from when i started with, dunno always loved the peasants :p but still, get more skaven! we need skaven ingame as a faction, then the bearded-things will die-die >:3

[Amorphium]

this is why i asked about bonuses vs cav, they dont seem to show up in the unit description:

[ninja51]

this is why i asked about bonuses vs cav, they dont seem to show up in the unit description:

It is that way with almost all of the spearmen units I believe, and as far as I can see, there are no special bonuses in the attribute sections of spearmen in the EDU. I do believe though that just having spears makes a unit naturaly better against cavalry and worse against infantry. Animations aside, Most mods have it give bonuses to attack or defence against cavalry, and take penalties when fighting infantry. I can see no indication why it wouldnt be the same here. The attributes section just has no specific "bonus vs cavalry" indicator

[Shadowlair]

i dont even think elves should have penalties when fighting anything, sicne their martial master with a flow in combat that is more like intuition than drill. the only race they would have anything in the form of a problem against are the dark elves who are in comparison a more trained full time army than then *with the helves relying on militia and delves on raiders* with the raiders spending more time in battle than the average miltia.

[The_Gimp]

Elves are not the semi godlike race in Warhammer. Yes they are described as ancient, experienced and certainly better than the average human, but compared to other fantasy worlds, Warhammer has the luxury of being an established combat system. Just take this as a rough reference and guidline.

There is absolutley no need to make the average elven Joe better than they "really" are.

Just an example: average elven Spearman against average Ork is pretty equal match on tabletop. Certainly much closer than for example in the typical Tolkin lore.

Most Vampire or Chaos Lords wipe the floor wih the so called Elven heros... (except the most hardcore named heros)

"Historically" the only reason why factions like Chaos, Orks and Skaven didn't wipe the "good" boys out are their own failures and weaknesses or/and the ability of the "good" side to unite sometimes in the face of great threat.

That being said: there is also no reason to make them weaker - and in with the current EDU they certainly are! The Seaguard and also the normal Spearmen are just the most apparent examples (don't get me started on the swordmasters that are weaker than the teutonic guard of Middenheim in the 1.4.4. mod).
Even the normal Spearmen should have at least Shieldwall like most disciplined "blocker" units have.