Patriotism

[Hobbes]

It really baffles me. A patriot is someone who is proud of his/her country's achievements, its history etc. But how can one be proud of something that was not his choice and that he in no way influenced? I cannot find any reasonable explanation, other than genuine respect and admiration for something glorious and important about the country. This means however that there should be an equal amount of admiration for other countries' achivements, which does not happen as everyone seems to have a preference towards his country. So why is there this pride? Where does it come from and how logical is it?

Please note that I honestly believe that patriotic people can be open minded individuals and that I do not consider patriotism something bad. I get the devotion thing-a citizen should be devoted to his country-but the pride is a real mystery.

[Ancient Aliens]

Its directly related to pride towards the ancestors, founders, and predecessors of ones country. This is why you rarely see 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd generation patriots. Patriotism also represents pride in the current actions of ones country, some of which are influenced by the decisions of citizens.

Personally, I am not a patriot. I am a citizen of the world. I take pride in the actions and accomplishments of humanity as a whole. While I do recognize specific achievements by specific countries, and while I do take pride in the positive actions of specific countries and their people, I am by no means attached to any particular one, except in that I ultimately live in one.

[Hobbes]

Its directly related to pride towards the ancestors, founders, and predecessors of ones country. This is why you rarely see 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd generation patriots. Patriotism also represents pride in the current actions of ones country, some of which are influenced by the decisions of citizens.

Personally, I am not a patriot. I am a citizen of the world. I take pride in the actions and accomplishments of humanity as a whole. While I do recognize specific achievements by specific countries, and while I do take pride in the positive actions of specific countries and their people, I am by no means attached to any particular one, except in that I ultimately live in one.

How can you be proud of your ancestors? Sure they were important and all, but it's not like you chose to have them. It was just luck. But I agree on the current actions part.

[Ancient Aliens]

How can you be proud of your ancestors? Sure they were important and all, but it's not like you chose to have them. It was just luck. But I agree on the current actions part.

You can be proud of the actions of your ancestors specifically, because they are the foundation upon which the a country was built. It was because of the founders of a country that a citizen is able to live in the manner that they are currently able to. If you are proud of the current condition of your country, then you are proud of the actions and people that shaped it's current condition, basically.

[Tiberios]

How can you be proud of your ancestors? Sure they were important and all, but it's not like you chose to have them. It was just luck. But I agree on the current actions part.

Why can't you be proud of your ancestors just because you can't choose them?

[Hobbes]

Why can't you be proud of your ancestors just because you can't choose them?

Because is doesn't make sense to be proud of random events, such as your birth.

[Tiberios]

Because is doesn't make sense to be proud of random events, such as your birth.

Why not? Why shuld I not be proud of my family or my country just because I can't choose them or the country. I simply don't get that logic at all.

Patriotism is really the valuing of a country. It's not simply some construct, countries are very often the embodiment of nations, who already have a cultural bond and something to value, or ideals or just history, which has formed itself into a nation of its own. It's not laying claim to personal achievements, it's showing respect for such achievements.

Indeed.

[Dr. Croccer]

Why can't you be proud of your ancestors just because you can't choose them?

Indeed. I can't choose my parents, that doesn't mean that I don't love them and that I value my family and its history.

Patriotism is really the valuing of a country. It's not simply some construct, countries are very often the embodiment of nations, who already have a cultural bond and something to value, or ideals or just history, which has formed itself into a nation of its own. It's not laying claim to personal achievements, it's showing respect for such achievements.

Because is doesn't make sense to be proud of random events, such as your birth.

Pride isn't logical. If I have a child who's good at sports I naturally feel proud, even if I had nothing to do with it. Again, it's not some hedonist feeling of trying to ascribe the characteristics of others to yourself, it's just being proud of the achievements of those you hold dear.

[Armenum]

Because is doesn't make sense to be proud of random events, such as your birth.

Why can't randomness be appreciated? It has created so much.

Second, Patriotism has more to do with your upbringing than your birth place.

Patriotism is not pride of where you are born. Patriotism is pride of where you are raised. Where you've grown up and that nations accomplishments. Its also the ability to critize your country and do something to change it. Patriotism is NOT pride in where you are born.

More accurately, I would say, Patriotism is regarding in what environment you are brought up in. So with what country you grow up to identify with as a result of your immediate environment, especially family. For example, there are Turks who grow up in Germany their whole lives, but feel unquestionable patriotism to Turkey, rather than Germany, this coming from the fact that they have grown up in a Turkish family and most likely a Turkish community.

[MathiasOfAthens]

Its directly related to pride towards the ancestors, founders, and predecessors of ones country. This is why you rarely see 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd generation patriots. Patriotism also represents pride in the current actions of ones country, some of which are influenced by the decisions of citizens.

Personally, I am not a patriot. I am a citizen of the world. I take pride in the actions and accomplishments of humanity as a whole. While I do recognize specific achievements by specific countries, and while I do take pride in the positive actions of specific countries and their people, I am by no means attached to any particular one, except in that I ultimately live in one.

Have you read Meditations?

[Ancient Aliens]

Have you read Meditations?

No but I need to. Does he mention something similar in Meditations? I have always been fond of Aurelius quotes.

[Tyler_the_Great]

Well as US citizen I believe we are the greatest country God game man. Sure I can look at France or Germany and respect the things they accomplished through history, but they are somehow not as great as us Mericans......

hmmm, dosn't make much sense after reading what I posted O_o But anywho USA FTW

[Ancient Aliens]

hmmm, dosn't make much sense after reading what I posted O_o But anywho USA FTW

You are giving us a bad name, as if we need help in that department...

[removeduser_4536284751384]

The trouble is people actually think nationalism/patriotism is pride in your country. It isn't. Pride in your country is simple pride in your country, which is what all of our American "patriots" seem to be posting non-stop.

Patriotism is a distinct feeling, it isn't a form of pride. It's a sort of warm sense of belonging to some abstract collective, and a feeling of empathy with others who also belong to the same abstract collective you do. It's the feeling that infected Europe in the 19th century and united Germany and Italy. It's the same feeling that surged across the UK after the destruction of the Spanish Armada and after Trafalgar. Patriotism has nothing to do with thinking your country is better than any other country, in the same way happiness has nothing to do with thinking you are a better human being than anyone else. They're just good feelings.

What our American posters claim about "the things that make America great" and all that nonsense isn't patriotism. I don't know what it is, but it isn't patriotism.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Well as US citizen I believe we are the greatest country God game man.

This statement represents everything wrong with 'patriotism.' (read nationalism)

[Armenum]

It really baffles me. A patriot is someone who is proud of his/her country's achievements, its history etc. But how can one be proud of something that was not his choice and that he in no way influenced? I cannot find any reasonable explanation, other than genuine respect and admiration for something glorious and important about the country. This means however that there should be an equal amount of admiration for other countries' achivements, which does not happen as everyone seems to have a preference towards his country. So why is there this pride? Where does it come from and how logical is it?

Please note that I honestly believe that patriotic people can be open minded individuals and that I do not consider patriotism something bad. I get the devotion thing-a citizen should be devoted to his country-but the pride is a real mystery.

Well the biggest factor is that through this "accident" you have been raised in the respective culture and ideals. It's that upbringing that is essential to such patriotism. You feel a connection to you country and culture through the ideals and mindset that has have been formed as a result of your environment as growing child. In all, one can say that everything in life is an accident. However, that shouldn't not let us take pride and respect the things that we get as a result of such accidents. It's a beauty how our world has evolved and the things we humans have achieved, yes luck was a proponent to that, but luck can also be beautiful.

[Marechal Ney]

Perhaps someone can explain to me this whole concept of "...proud of...". What does that mean? "I'm proud of my country." Does that mean that you take a personal ego-boost due to the choices made by your nation's government? While that may seem silly, in my mind it is true for a majority of people here in the US.

While questioning the meaning of "proud of" may seem simply silly, it hasn't made much sense to me; "You/the nation should be proud." is understandable, as is "I love my country."...but "I'm proud of my country/ancestors/rabbits/cake/etc!"...what is that supposed to mean? Again, I think it is, inevitably, the definition above. Man is, by nature, predispositioned to be both self-interested and social. Thus, he equates himself with societies, promotes them, while in effect he is promoting himself.

[Ancient Aliens]

Man is, by nature, predispositioned to be both self-interested and social. Thus, he equates himself with societies, promotes them, while in effect he is promoting himself.

Exactly what I was struggling to spell out, well said.

[Claudius Gothicus]

Being ''proud'' of someone's national background would be stupid.

But coming to realize how it's past, present and future are part of your conscience, who you actually are and who your loved one's are is a big part of maturity.

In short a nation forms one's inter-subjectivity, being proud(which would mean denying the bad and reasserting the good, by strictly biased judgments) of said inter subjectivity is dumb but embracing(which is on the contrary realizing the negative and positive, taking it with all that it means and working every day to make it develop into a better whole) it is not.

[Incesticide]

Much of what I wanted to say has been said already, but allow me a small mini-rant.

Pride is a wonderful feeling of self affirmation and self regard, faking it does a person no good. We should take pride in our achievements not in our membership of groups we could not choose to join. There is no reason for rightful and proper pride in matters that are accidental and coincidental. I have no reason to be proud to be Maltese, it was not a choice I made or a prize I earned. In no uncertain terms I am only Maltese because my parents happened to, well, do whatever it is that parents do, in Malta. To further complicate matters, my family has an English, Spanish, Italian and Croatian background, which means I have even less of a claim to Maltese national pride than most in my country. Am I interested in my country's history? Do I appreciate what the people of my country achieved? On both counts most definitely yes. But that gives me no claim to pride over what the past inhabitants of my country did.

National pride, gay pride, female pride, male pride, lefty pride, black pride - all of these are misplaced and wrong. Being born in Hicksville Utah in 1979 does not mean that you somehow put a man on the Moon, defeated the Third Reich, won Olympic gold medals from Hitler and launched Ford, IBM and Microsoft. Being born in Birkirkara, Malta in 1986 does not mean that I defeated the Ottoman Turks in 1565, or the Axis forces in 1943 (although I thank my Grandparents for the work they did in achieving that).

How can the fact that people you do not know and have done nothing to support have managed to kill some other people half a world away give you a feeling of achievement? People who spend most of their waking hours avoiding paying taxes and avoiding their civic duties take one look at the news and leap up and down in joy at their victory, so full of pride. How charming. If you spend all your waking energies childishly fighting the government then you have no right to feel pride in anything other than your own efforts. National pride should be reserved for those people who co-operate with their nation, who pay their taxes, who support their police, vote in elections and who obey their laws. Even then, those people should only be proud of what they have accomplished in the present.