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  1. #1

    Default 72 Dark Haired Virgins

    I dont know why this crossed my mind. Regardless, this brought to mind a question given the traditionally 'clean' atmosphere of a religion.

    Where and how did the tale that those who sacrificed themselves to Islam (Whether that sacrifice was suicide bombing, dying in war for it, or simply sacrificing your time and purpose towards Islam) would recieve such a hedonistic pleasure upon their arrival in paradise? Is it the orthodox view of Muslims, or was it an addition to the prospect of going to paradise if you were a faithful Muslim, granted later on by a cult or subdivision of Islam?

  2. #2
    Eric's Avatar Praepositus
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    I don't know why, but 72 seems like a suspicious number to me. Like they haggled to get to it:

    -100!
    -70!
    -80!
    -72!
    -Deal!

    yeah
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    I don't know why, but 72 seems like a suspicious number to me. Like they haggled to get to it:

    -100!
    -70!
    -80!
    -72!
    -Deal!

    yeah
    That was from that stupid comedy central show.
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    Eric's Avatar Praepositus
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    Hey! I like the Comedy Channel and... STOP JUDGING ME!
    Better to stand under the Crown than to kneel under a Flag

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    .Socrates's Avatar I Love You
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    Hey! I like the Comedy Channel and... STOP JUDGING ME!
    alrighty then, just cool down there...
    Originally under the patronage of RZZZA. Under the patronage of the Black Prince, in the Royal House of the Black Prince.

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  6. #6

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    If the Quran is anything like the Bible or the Gita, it is a work of a bunch of people over time that put it together. Really stupid things could slip in somehow from someone, it does happen.
    God Damn a potato: Washakie

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    big_feef's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbs
    If the Quran is anything like the Bible or the Gita, it is a work of a bunch of people over time that put it together. Really stupid things could slip in somehow from someone, it does happen.
    The thing is, the Qu'ran isn't like that; or shouldn't be. It is supposed to be the unedited word of the angel Jirbil (Gabriel) to the prophet Muhammad. I say supposed to be because it is an issue that has divided Islam in the past... along with the succession that has caused the major division of Sunni and Shia.

    The fact that Muhammad could not read or write and had to recite what was revealed to him is usually the first thing pointed out by those who claim that the Qu'ran has been edited. To be honest, I don't know; it is a matter of faith I guess. But that is something that is at least easier to swallow than the things many Christians do from the Bible.

    Not trying to start any kind of religious flame war; so I'll state for the record: I grew up Roman Catholic, came to disdain it; and later researched many other religions in my earlier searches spiritual happiness. Now, I still believe in a God; I just don't think I have to subject myself to an organized religion to keep that belief. I have as much respect for Islam and Judaism as I have for Christianity; they all encompass the same things that form the basis of my beliefs. The only thing that would brand me as a Christian is my belief that Jesus was the messiah; something Islam and Judaism doesn't have.
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  8. #8
    AngryTitusPullo's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_feef
    Not trying to start any kind of religious flame war; so I'll state for the record: I grew up Roman Catholic, came to disdain it; and later researched many other religions in my earlier searches spiritual happiness. Now, I still believe in a God; I just don't think I have to subject myself to an organized religion to keep that belief. I have as much respect for Islam and Judaism as I have for Christianity; they all encompass the same things that form the basis of my beliefs. The only thing that would brand me as a Christian is my belief that Jesus was the messiah; something Islam and Judaism doesn't have.
    A litle bit of correction for the muslim part. Muslims believe that Jesus is the messiah. Even in the Quran Jesus is called Isa al Masih. The difference is all prophets are consider the messiah. The confusion is between Jesus the Messiah and Jesus The Messiah.

    Muslims generally believe that Jesus were send to be the messiah for the Jews, because at those time the Jews are going far and far from God's teaching, by putting the Talmud (man's creation) above the Torah (God's words).

    The same thing is also happening with muslims now where they are putting Hadith (sayings of the Prophet-which is not guaranteed correctness) from the Quran (as Muslims believe have never been altered).

    Jews didn't accept Jesus because they were expecting a different kind of messiah, a king of sort who will free them from Roman yoke. Not Jesus who's preaching are to get back the Jews towards God's law.

    They also didn't accept Muhammad, simply because because he's not a Jew and not among their brethen which can be an Arab which they were expecting.

    Cheers.


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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngryTitusPullo
    A litle bit of correction for the muslim part. Muslims believe that Jesus is the messiah. Even in the Quran Jesus is called Isa al Masih. The difference is all prophets are consider the messiah. The confusion is between Jesus the Messiah and Jesus The Messiah.

    Muslims generally believe that Jesus were send to be the messiah for the Jews, because at those time the Jews are going far and far from God's teaching, by putting the Talmud (man's creation) above the Torah (God's words).

    The same thing is also happening with muslims now where they are putting Hadith (sayings of the Prophet-which is not guaranteed correctness) from the Quran (as Muslims believe have never been altered).

    Jews didn't accept Jesus because they were expecting a different kind of messiah, a king of sort who will free them from Roman yoke. Not Jesus who's preaching are to get back the Jews towards God's law.

    They also didn't accept Muhammad, simply because because he's not a Jew and not among their brethen which can be an Arab which they were expecting.

    Cheers.
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    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngryTitusPullo
    A litle bit of correction for the muslim part. Muslims believe that Jesus is the messiah. Even in the Quran Jesus is called Isa al Masih. The difference is all prophets are consider the messiah. The confusion is between Jesus the Messiah and Jesus The Messiah.
    Which by the way, is wrong in terms of knowledge of the Torah. There is supposed to be only one Messiah. So if the Torah is the word of God (which according to the Qu'ran is true) Jesus is either "The Messiah" or nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by AngryTitusPullo
    Muslims generally believe that Jesus were send to be the messiah for the Jews, because at those time the Jews are going far and far from God's teaching, by putting the Talmud (man's creation) above the Torah (God's words).
    An interesting aspect for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by AngryTitusPullo
    The same thing is also happening with muslims now where they are putting Hadith (sayings of the Prophet-which is not guaranteed correctness) from the Quran (as Muslims believe have never been altered).
    Another interesting aspect. How do we tell the word of God from that which is not? Based on Mohammed's authority, I am sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by AngryTitusPullo
    Jews didn't accept Jesus because they were expecting a different kind of messiah, a king of sort who will free them from Roman yoke. Not Jesus who's preaching are to get back the Jews towards God's law.

    They also didn't accept Muhammad, simply because because he's not a Jew and not among their brethen which can be an Arab which they were expecting.

    Cheers.
    Mohammad is not annouced anywhere in the Torah/New Testament, though. This discussion having been held several times, I furthermore would add that I don't know why I should trust Mohammed more than any other human being, in his assertion to speak the word of God. Having read the Qu'ran, it didn't resound to me as particularly wise or anything like that. It's indeed also full of myths and inconsistencies, like the tale of Chidr.

  11. #11
    AngryTitusPullo's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon
    Which by the way, is wrong in terms of knowledge of the Torah. There is supposed to be only one Messiah. So if the Torah is the word of God (which according to the Qu'ran is true) Jesus is either "The Messiah" or nothing.
    Wrong or right is a subjective matter isn't it. Unless I'm mistaken my earlier statement were base on a Muslim point of view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon
    An interesting aspect for sure.
    It is what I have been teached and what I believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon
    Another interesting aspect. How do we tell the word of God from that which is not? Based on Mohammed's authority, I am sure.
    It's either if you believe of not. As I read somewhere that you wrote (another thread maybe) about you believe God will judge you, then I say let the judgement be God's judgement. Like in my sig, for me my religion (belief), for you your religion (belief).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon
    Mohammad is not annouced anywhere in the Torah/New Testament, though. This discussion having been held several times, I furthermore would add that I don't know why I should trust Mohammed more than any other human being, in his assertion to speak the word of God. Having read the Qu'ran, it didn't resound to me as particularly wise or anything like that. It's indeed also full of myths and inconsistencies, like the tale of Chidr.
    Again same as my reply above. Anyway since the original language (or Injeel) is no longer avialable (Hebrew or Aramaic ?) then how can you be sure that there's no 'announcement' regarding Muhammad in the OT and NT , which might be lost during various translation ?

    Anyway besides the 4 gospels which is used by Christians, there are other Gospels which are not used such as Barbabas, Mary Magdalene etc. Why is those gospels not used ?

    Maybe if you're an open minded kind of guy (or gal - sorry I do not know your gender) you can find a book title Muhammad in the Bible , written by a South African author name Ahmad Deedad.

    Or you can jst google for it. I tried and found many entries.

    Peace.


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    If i were to tell the story i heard from a site that says how that got in i would be considered a sacrelgious to muslims
    ON the matter of the dead some luaghed but other said we will see thee on this matter again.
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  13. #13

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    There still a thearory on how it got in there witch id indulting
    ON the matter of the dead some luaghed but other said we will see thee on this matter again.
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    Lord Tomyris's Avatar Cheshire Cat
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    Quote Originally Posted by Musha
    There still a thearory on how it got in there witch id indulting
    Ah, care to share?


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  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tomyris
    Ah, care to share?
    I dont thing its true but this is what a site says.

    In a famous battle in islam the muhmand (or whatever)
    Tryed to find a way for them to fight and not be afraid oof death so he heard from the angel that tell the if they fight and die with honour then they will
    go to heven with 72 virgins and 20 boy servants.
    He told them it worked thats how we got that at least this ite say that
    But it sound interesting
    ON the matter of the dead some luaghed but other said we will see thee on this matter again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahiga
    I dont know why this crossed my mind. Regardless, this brought to mind a question given the traditionally 'clean' atmosphere of a religion.

    Where and how did the tale that those who sacrificed themselves to Islam (Whether that sacrifice was suicide bombing, dying in war for it, or simply sacrificing your time and purpose towards Islam) would recieve such a hedonistic pleasure upon their arrival in paradise? Is it the orthodox view of Muslims, or was it an addition to the prospect of going to paradise if you were a faithful Muslim, granted later on by a cult or subdivision of Islam?
    As a side note. I believe that in Arabic the number 72 is used in the slang format that 72 means " a lot "

    Like in English we say I told you 100 times!

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    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Barnabas is very clearly a fake. Mary Magdalene was a woman, and thus according to one Surah of the Qu'ran, her witness bears 1/2 of that of a man. :wink:

    In any case, I will check it out.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon
    Barnabas is very clearly a fake. Mary Magdalene was a woman, and thus according to one Surah of the Qu'ran, her witness bears 1/2 of that of a man. :wink:

    In any case, I will check it out.
    What exactly classifies it as "fake"?

  19. #19
    AngryTitusPullo's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon
    Barnabas is very clearly a fake. Mary Magdalene was a woman, and thus according to one Surah of the Qu'ran, her witness bears 1/2 of that of a man. :wink:

    In any case, I will check it out.
    Even 1/2 means that Islam accepts women's point of view, not totally discard them.

    Barnabas is fake because because it told the event of 7th cnetury ? Eeerr.. isn't that prophecy suppose to mean ?


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    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    The fact that it refers to events which happened in the 7th century A.D. for one, between many others about which we discussed in the past.

    This are the surviving parts of The Gospel of Mary Magdalen:

    Chapter 4
    (Pages 1 to 6 of the manuscript, containing chapters 1 - 3, are lost. The extant text starts on page 7...)

    . . . Will matter then be destroyed or not?

    22) The Savior said, All nature, all formations, all creatures exist in and with one another, and they will be resolved again into their own roots.

    23) For the nature of matter is resolved into the roots of its own nature alone.

    24) He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

    25) Peter said to him, Since you have explained everything to us, tell us this also: What is the sin of the world?

    26) The Savior said There is no sin, but it is you who make sin when you do the things that are like the nature of adultery, which is called sin.

    27) That is why the Good came into your midst, to the essence of every nature in order to restore it to its root.

    28) Then He continued and said, That is why you become sick and die, for you are deprived of the one who can heal you.

    29) He who has a mind to understand, let him understand.

    30) Matter gave birth to a passion that has no equal, which proceeded from something contrary to nature. Then there arises a disturbance in its whole body.

    31) That is why I said to you, Be of good courage, and if you are discouraged be encouraged in the presence of the different forms of nature.

    32) He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

    33) When the Blessed One had said this, He greeted them all,saying, Peace be with you. Receive my peace unto yourselves.

    34) Beware that no one lead you astray saying Lo here or lo there! For the Son of Man is within you.

    35) Follow after Him!

    36) Those who seek Him will find Him.

    37) Go then and preach the gospel of the Kingdom.

    38) Do not lay down any rules beyond what I appointed you, and do not give a law like the lawgiver lest you be constrained by it.

    39) When He said this He departed.


    Chapter 5
    1) But they were grieved. They wept greatly, saying, How shall we go to the Gentiles and preach the gospel of the Kingdom of the Son of Man? If they did not spare Him, how will they spare us?

    2) Then Mary stood up, greeted them all, and said to her brethren, Do not weep and do not grieve nor be irresolute, for His grace will be entirely with you and will protect you.

    3) But rather, let us praise His greatness, for He has prepared us and made us into Men.

    4) When Mary said this, she turned their hearts to the Good, and they began to discuss the words of the Savior.

    5) Peter said to Mary, Sister we know that the Savior loved you more than the rest of woman.

    6) Tell us the words of the Savior which you remember which you know, but we do not, nor have we heard them.

    7) Mary answered and said, What is hidden from you I will proclaim to you.

    8) And she began to speak to them these words: I, she said, I saw the Lord in a vision and I said to Him, Lord I saw you today in a vision. He answered and said to me,

    9) Blessed are you that you did not waver at the sight of Me. For where the mind is there is the treasure.

    10) I said to Him, Lord, how does he who sees the vision see it, through the soul or through the spirit?

    11) The Savior answered and said, He does not see through the soul nor through the spirit, but the mind that is between the two that is what sees the vision and it is [...]

    (pages 11 - 14 are missing from the manuscript)


    Chapter 8:
    . . . it.

    10) And desire said, I did not see you descending, but now I see you ascending. Why do you lie since you belong to me?

    11) The soul answered and said, I saw you. You did not see me nor recognize me. I served you as a garment and you did not know me.

    12) When it said this, it (the soul) went away rejoicing greatly.

    13) Again it came to the third power, which is called ignorance.

    14) The power questioned the soul, saying, Where are you going? In wickedness are you bound. But you are bound; do not judge!

    15) And the soul said, Why do you judge me, although I have not judged?

    16) I was bound, though I have not bound.

    17) I was not recognized. But I have recognized that the All is being dissolved, both the earthly things and the heavenly.

    18) When the soul had overcome the third power, it went upwards and saw the fourth power, which took seven forms.

    19) The first form is darkness, the second desire, the third ignorance, the fourth is the excitement of death, the fifth is the kingdom of the flesh, the sixth is the foolish wisdom of flesh, the seventh is the wrathful wisdom. These are the seven powers of wrath.

    20) They asked the soul, Whence do you come slayer of men, or where are you going, conqueror of space?

    21) The soul answered and said, What binds me has been slain, and what turns me about has been overcome,

    22) and my desire has been ended, and ignorance has died.

    23) In a aeon I was released from a world, and in a Type from a type, and from the fetter of oblivion which is transient.

    24) From this time on will I attain to the rest of the time, of the season, of the aeon, in silence.


    Chapter 9
    1) When Mary had said this, she fell silent, since it was to this point that the Savior had spoken with her.

    2) But Andrew answered and said to the brethren, Say what you wish to say about what she has said. I at least do not believe that the Savior said this. For certainly these teachings are strange ideas.

    3) Peter answered and spoke concerning these same things.

    4) He questioned them about the Savior: Did He really speak privately with a woman and not openly to us? Are we to turn about and all listen to her? Did He prefer her to us?

    5) Then Mary wept and said to Peter, My brother Peter, what do you think? Do you think that I have thought this up myself in my heart, or that I am lying about the Savior?

    6) Levi answered and said to Peter, Peter you have always been hot tempered.

    7) Now I see you contending against the woman like the adversaries.

    8) But if the Savior made her worthy, who are you indeed to reject her? Surely the Savior knows her very well.

    9) That is why He loved her more than us. Rather let us be ashamed and put on the perfect Man, and separate as He commanded us and preach the gospel, not laying down any other rule or other law beyond what the Savior said.

    10) And when they heard this they began to go forth to proclaim and to preach.
    A fragment, as you see. Gnostic, and fundamentally near to Taoist/Buddhist/Alchemical conceptions I would say.

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