let's be done with SS 6.x and bring the 7.x instead

[napoleonic]

alright, I know there's that long suggestion thread, but I think this post deserve it's own thread; SS is a wonderful mod, but I'm honestly quite surprised that there are many things that can still be improved even after it's 6.4th version... (well I know there were no version 1.9 or 3.8 or 5.75 of this mod, but the point is, this mod has gone quite a long way since the first release; and I think by now this mod can be considered mature)

the thing is that these possible improvements are not really just small tweaks here and there, and frankly this is not a good sign of progression , but this by no means that what has been done is bad, no, but I think SS is quite underdeveloped on some areas...

now, recently we've seen all these amazing submod available for various things that add depth and liked by many of us albeit some will only suit some people while others suit the other people; however there are things that I think it's safe to say that fans can generally agree with :

1. map change... looking at submod forum I'm aware that there are several map submod there, whether it's encompass global area or regional specific, however for the base SS I think there's one map that can be the best candidate that suit most of us : RollingWave's map from HURB

even if that map is not going to be used, I think we can all agree to these changes :
a. basically reduce Ireland to 1 region yeah this is going to cause Irishmen here went mad, but sorry... the truth is that it's not worth sacrificing the whole europe + middle east for Ireland
b. reduce england and scotland to 5-6 regions, I quite agree with RW reasoning for this, basically england was not that crowded and ... let's face it, the AI can't handle islands, so it's better to improve other areas of the map that do not requires ship access; therefore
c. remove rhodes, it's a tiny island that serve no strategic value whatsoever, and it's proven over and over that the AI like to camp a full stack there while their regions elsewhere under threats
d. personally I think one or two more islands need to go, I'm thinking Iraklion or Visby or the others... sure it maybe unrealistic or ahistorical, but surely there are other continental provinces that have equal or even bigger importance that can be added?

generally I'm satisfied enough with RW's map, it mainly overhaul western europe, northren italy, balkan, and russia, and also I like the resources lots of trades hehe...

2. speaking about RW's submod, here's what I think that it like what I said in the beginning of this thread, there's a thing that need major overhaul in SS, which is buildings!
simply said, the old vanilla style building just feel so outdated by now, we need more sensible, realistic and fun buildings system here, RW's changes are so far still rather basic... the point is, building system need to be overhauled, including recruitment system (I don't really like RW's recruitment because it makes elite units too easily available again compared to PB's system), and guilds system need to be tweaked too, perhaps add more guilds too?

so as we can see, 2 major points I stated above still can be vastly improved in many ways and I believe this need to be done now, no point on delaying that anymore, I mean make it integrated into SS than submods; then we can go to the 3rd point

3. more factions, and units overhaul; simply put, add RW's Broken Crescent style islamic factions overhaul and some western units overhaul, scotland overhaul from CHIP, Frenchy units overhaul, Magyar mods, BfB, etc; then PB's new RC, mercenaries overhaul, Serbian Hussar's improved textures, etc; perhaps units from other mods that hasn't been tried too, blah blah blah... there's so many things to improve in this area that sometimes amazes me that this hasn't been done after all these years! as for factions we know there's some disagreement among fans, but I think people won't object with another islamic faction and eastern europe faction to balance the map, but of course in the end it's up to the developers.

I know adding 3 points above is not a simple work, but the important thing is that SS must immediately evolve into that (again, because it's already on 6.x version), hence my suggestion to be done with 6.x and make it 7 with all these new features we all like.

what do you all think about this?

[The Source]

so pretty much what your saying is for SS.7 we should have RW's and about 5 other submods to a whole new stainless steel...?

and now way in hell are we removing iraklon, and maybe we should take away exter from england

[bɑne]

but I think SS is quite underdeveloped on some areas...

Personally I think SS is quite understaffed in some areas. Maybe you should get RW to join the dev team. Or skill up and join. Then you can make all those development steps you dream off happen...

[napoleonic]

I will not say let's just put them together in 1 package and say it's the 7th version, no, need more adjustment, balancing and such... but you know, these are still rather basic features (map changes and building overhaul) yet will bring major and fundamental changes to the whole mod

as for island, yes I think more islands than just rhodes need to go... only human can get benefit from these islands, so please help the AI by allocating the region slots to more conventional continental regions.

Personally I think SS is quite understaffed in some areas. Maybe you should get RW to join the dev team. Or skill up and join. Then you can make all those development steps you dream off happen...

I've never done public modding btw who actually developed this mod after KK left? Gracul took the lead but... what did he actually do? who did what for the last 2-3 version?

[bɑne]

I've never done public modding btw who actually developed this mod after KK left? Gracul took the lead but... what did he actually do? who did what for the last 2-3 version?

Let's just say that in my eyes gracul and point blank are both one-man-armies when it comes to SS development. Leadership in terms of modding most often means to bear the brunt of the work.

[napoleonic]

Let's just say that in my eyes gracul and point blank are both one-man-armies when it comes to SS development. Leadership in terms of modding most often means to bear the brunt of the work.

but they just use the works from sub modders (or other major mods) right? and that's what it is, all the stuffs are already there, they just need some unity and work together, although ATM most of them are busy though

[bɑne]

but they just use the works from sub modders (or other major mods) right?

Leaving aside that both gracul and Point Blank did their own developments (who do you think made RR/RC for example, the DLV team?), so no idea where your "just" comes from...

and that's what it is, all the stuffs are already there, they just need some unity and work together, although ATM most of them are busy though

... this isn't an easy mix and match like a bowl of breakfast cereal you know ...

[Germanicu5]

I've never done public modding btw who actually developed this mod after KK left? Gracul took the lead but... what did he actually do? who did what for the last 2-3 version?

This is what I was talking to gracul about a while ago - this mod lacks good PR and some decent feature list (this is being worked on though).

Gracul's done amazing amount of work on map, making it more AI-friendly and bug-free, plus he also made coasts smoother, prepared setup file and submod insertion system (or to be exact: he programmed it in C++, same as modeldb sweeper and launcher),

There are dozens of smaller and bigger tweaks, that includes EDB, region modifications, extensive and innovative scripting changes (some never seen before), some changes deeply influencing gameplay - like economy script that we argued about about zillion times to great benefit of its quality.

There are many new features that just can't be named - in terms of gameplay depth this mod is closing to perfection (particularly with BGR and optional scripts), we don't care about adding new shiny helmets or stuff that is easily spotted (btw - anyone noticed new UIs?), but work on things that make people stick around for longer.

There are lots of exciting features planned for future, but we're only human and some of us still have exams to pass or just life to live.

Regards

[el Cid]

While I agree with some of your points, I truly disagree with your suggested map changes. I don't know what RW's map looks like, so I can not give my opinion about that, but your suggested changes are not to my liking.

I agree with the buildings, that should be overhauled in a way.
Regarding that factions I agree aswell, though I have not looked into all of those overhauled rosters.

One major thing that is bugging me is that lack of uniformity in the unit cards and unit info cards. Many unit cards are new, while some are left from vanilla, this looks weird and (IMO) should be improved. Next are the unit info cards, these are shared by multiple factions, so that if you look into the Templar Zweihander card you see Kings Men, as well as some other units (Halberd for example) which are shared by factions. So that if you look at them they could have Denmark colours if you are Norway. This is lacking in uniformity and while being a massive load of work, should be improved in my opinion.

[The Source]

While I agree with some of your points, I truly disagree with your suggested map changes. I don't know what RW's map looks like, so I can not give my opinion about that, but your suggested changes are not to my liking.

One major thing that is bugging me is that lack of uniformity in the unit cards and unit info cards. Many unit cards are new, while some are left from vanilla, this looks weird and (IMO) should be improved. Next are the unit info cards, these are shared by multiple factions, so that if you look into the Templar Zweihander card you see Kings Men, as well as some other units (Halberd for example) which are shared by factions. So that if you look at them they could have Denmark colours if you are Norway. This is lacking in uniformity and while being a massive load of work, should be improved in my opinion.

if you didnt know, RW's map is pretty much based on population, eg. france and england both roughly have the same area on the strat map, but france is more populated, therefore it would have more settlements.

totally agree that unit cards should be done in 6.5

[el Cid]

if you didnt know, RW's map is pretty much based on population, eg. france and england both roughly have the same area on the strat map, but france is more populated, therefore it would have more settlements.

totally agree that unit cards should be done in 6.5

Was France more populated in the ME? As currently they are equal in population (60 million each AFAIK).

[The Source]

Was France more populated in the ME? As currently they are equal in population (60 million each AFAIK).

ME??, well im guessing thats the medieval/rennisance times, yeh france was about 2-3x the size of england in population

[Ichon]

ME??, well im guessing thats the medieval/rennisance times, yeh france was about 2-3x the size of england in population

More like 4-5x actually. England started to grow in 1200s but plague and famines reduced it more than many other places in Europe and then it didn't get major population growth until late 1500s and the population explosion wasn't until 1700s. The population never came close to France until 1900s, though it did have much more emigration then France.

[napoleonic]

Was France more populated in the ME? As currently they are equal in population (60 million each AFAIK).

well logically the continent was more populated than britain, and thus allowing more migration, urbanization etc....

but this is after all still a game, don't just too focused on reality, perfect example is the islands in this game themselves.... yes I think if it possible we would like to include all islands and regions.... but then there's that limitation, and the AI incapability with islands... seriously I'd rather have more continental regions than these islands... the balkan for example, or georgian, or scandinavian areas, they will also serve for addition of new factions.... just to be clear, I'm not saying remove all islands, but cut some of them, Rhodes already cut in RW's map and it's good... just 1 or 2 more to be relocated

as for buildings overhaul, see my idea about it here http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=450386

that's still basic no advanced/new buildings and no guilds, but I'm sure there's a lot of potential there in overhauling buildings.

[ihranator]

If there wasn't such a large number of people against RR and it's limitations, I'd suggest full integration of RR/RC and it's systems.

[Hallow]

If there wasn't such a large number of people against RR and it's limitations, I'd suggest full integration of RR/RC and it's systems.

No thank you.

Also, leave the islands alone!

[stevehoos]

Well why don't we just make a land bridge between France and England instead of ruining the campaign for people that play with England and Scotland by taking away settlements, or we could have recruitable ghosts that shoot death rays out thier north ends when traversing south!!!

I agree about other things.

[ITC]

Well why don't we just make a land bridge between France and England instead of ruining the campaign for people that play with England and Scotland by taking away settlements, or we could have recruitable ghosts that shoot death rays out thier north ends when traversing south!!!

I agree about other things.

+ 1 for the bridge!

[napoleonic]

Well why don't we just make a land bridge between France and England instead of ruining the campaign for people that play with England and Scotland by taking away settlements, or we could have recruitable ghosts that shoot death rays out thier north ends when traversing south!!!

I agree about other things.

sorry but how come reducing britain regions ruining gameplay for england and scotland? I mean, don't you want to unleash your power in the world? IMO it's actually on the contrary, giving too many regions there just make it too easy for human to just camp there, safe and stockpiling easy money...

and who actually playing england and scotland over and over and over again? don't you want to try being in other part of the world?

[stevehoos]

sorry but how come reducing britain regions ruining gameplay for england and scotland? I mean, don't you want to unleash your power in the world? IMO it's actually on the contrary, giving too many regions there just make it too easy for human to just camp there, safe and stockpiling easy money...

and who actually playing england and scotland over and over and over again? don't you want to try being in other part of the world?

Well one problem is, it would make it far too easy to occupy the Isles with fewer reigions for an invading force to overcome. You cannot reduce Scotland to less than 3 regions because England already has an advantage, and that would make it too easy for England. Removing regions will not quell the problem of camping and stockpilling money, you would see the exact same issue with removal of a few regions, just it would take 5 turns instead of 1 to "unleash your power in the world " via monetary gain. Really I don't see how this idea improves anything? Should we remove all islands from the map becasue of an inept AI? And what part of my post indicates that I play with England and Scotland exclusively?