Pikemen

[.:Zack Fair:.]

Why are the pikemen so nerfed and have such a high cost in this mod?

[Larsel]

pikemen are godly?

[ShockBlast]

Why are the pikemen so nerfed and have such a high cost in this mod?

Just use them in battle and then i dare you to come back and back up that statement.

[Gigan]

Pikemen come so late in the game. By then most players are done with their campaigns. This is why we need a late 1300's or a campaign set in the 1400's!

[k/t]

Damn it! This one of the thread titles I missed in my poll! http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=442495

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=372568

[Erunion Telcontar]

Pikemen are insanely effective. Use them. They will not disappoint.

In Vanilla, pikemen dropped their pikes and used their swords when the enemy got close. This does not happen in Stainless Steel.
Pikemen are waaay better with pikes than with swords, as several pikemen are able to fight the same enemy soldier, without being touched (yay for long weapons!).

[misterbull]

Pikemen are insanely effective. Use them. They will not disappoint.

In Vanilla, pikemen dropped their pikes and used their swords when the enemy got close. This does not happen in Stainless Steel.
Pikemen are waaay better with pikes than with swords, as several pikemen are able to fight the same enemy soldier, without being touched (yay for long weapons!).

Maybe he's coming from other mods. But, in vanilla pikemen were completely useless. They jsut stood there in formation like robots until a unit hit them where they would switch immediately to swords rendering them useless.

[Gallus]

They are the only units that can beat heavy cavalry. Cavalry charge is insanely awesome in SS.

[Ichon]

They are the only units that can beat heavy cavalry. Cavalry charge is insanely awesome in SS.

They are the only infantry that can reliably counter heavy cavalry but halberds as long as aren't charged from the rear or while moving also do well against cavalry. Probably still lose but kill lots of cavalry. The pikes because of mostly larger numbers can usually nearly totally stop a frontal cavalry charge for a little while even from Lancers. If you don't have some halberds or good AP though the Lancers will eventually pull back and charge again eventually breaking the pikemen whose morale is lower.

Other heavy cavalry, firearms, AP units, and some missiles can counter heavy cavalry too. HA and javelins are very effective against early heavy cavalry but by late game only gunpowder does much against Lancers other than AP units with large attack.

[k/t]

Pikes are the best for receiving the charge; halberds are the best for killing the cavalry.

[ITC]

What about crazy pavise spearmen? My Ritterbruders have fallen as quickly as their charge on those guy's was.

[Lugiahua]

What about crazy pavise spearmen? My Ritterbruders have fallen as quickly as their charge on those guy's was.

Are you serious? those spearmen dropped like flies against my men at arms...

[.:Zack Fair:.]

Guys, I know how the effective use of pikemen..I just would have liked to know why they come so late and cost so much

[Anesthetize]

Because they are historically late units from the high medieval era, and need to be properly trained to handle the pike that is twice their own size. Pikemen militia are still cheaper, but given the fact that most pikemen are well armoured, as well as well equipped (pardon the pun) makes it logical that they should be somewhat costly as well.

[k/t]

There are slight differences in armour between Ritterbruders and Gendarmes.

[parallax7d]

When do you enable guard mode with pikes? Also, if they are fighting infantry to you typically disable spear wall?

[Ichon]

When do you enable guard mode with pikes? Also, if they are fighting infantry to you typically disable spear wall?

No, I leave spear wall active because the pikemen don't break the enemy infantry- they hold them off and crossbow, handgunds, or halberds finish the enemy infantry from protection of the pikes which holds the enemy infantry back.

The one thing I do agree with OP about is that pikemen could appear earlier in the game. It seems great numbers aren't available until after gunpowder weapons are which doesn't quite make sense historically it was the other way around.

Swiss pikemen/halberds and others were winning victories in early 1300s but in the game I don't think they are widely available until 1400s which seems a bit late. I think some Swiss and others should be available in N Italy by 1290s and spreading availability from there. Also Swiss didn't just use pikemen- they had halberds, crossbow, and some early handguns preceding their pike columns and then falling back under protection of the column as the column advanced.

[k/t]

Pike Militia are available pretty early on.

[Ichon]

Pike Militia are available pretty early on.

Yeah but those are actually usually a later development once the Swiss and others demonstrated the power of pike columns militia began drilling as pikemen more often than as spear/shieldmen.

If all you see are pike militia than some of the complains of the OP are almost justified as those guys can stop most cavalry except the super heavy cavalries where with halberd militia in the ranks they will usually win but it can be a very close battle.

Truthfully I am not quite sure if pike militia deserve a place in the game like they have... the Swiss were basically pike militia. Just very well drilled and obligated to serve. I'd prefer there were more Swiss companies around as mercenaries- they fought in almost every major campaign for a 200 year period and were often the dominant force or the later Landsnechts and other well trained pikemen. The pikemen militias were later development based on the domination of the more professional pikemen that were rather quickly made obsolete by massed missile fire.

If you read the accounts of the battles the Swiss were often known for their very rapid advance while maintaining formation. How they are portrayed in the game is as a slow phalanx type advance. Other than that though I think PB's most recent efforts got the balance nearly perfect. Just need to tweak availability and speed a bit.

[Lord Oakenthrone]

" I'd prefer there were more Swiss companies around as mercenaries"

ABSOLUTELY! would love to be able to hire some Swiss to bolster the ranks Imagine a Byz army with Pikes like that at front, with all those Roman javelins behind them