Ottoman Empire (1900) vs Qing China (1900)

[6644kp]

What would happen if these two dying empires went to war went to war with eachother. The Chinese were beaten and humilitated in the Boxer Rebellion in which the Eight Nation Alliance only commited 2500 troops. After their victory the alliance nations were seriously considering carving China up between them.

The Ottomans on the otherhand still showed they had some steam left in the Greco-Turkish War of 1897 which resulted on Ottoman victory. And during the First World War they put up quite a fight as well and made gains in the Caucases and won in Gallipoli though in the end they lost the war.

I'm leaning towards the Ottomans. Now I know that the two states are far from eachother and would have major troop transporting issues but in a purely hypothetical scenario where troop transport is not an issue who do you think would win?

[Jlop985]

The Ottomans would have the edge militarily, but both countries would collapse.

[Heavy Weapons Guy]

The Ottoman Empire without doubt would win, Chinese wouldn't have a chance.

[Erwin Rommel]

How many of you guys are even aware of Qing Chinese capabilities in 1900s? Aside from a cursory glance of troop rosters from the Boxer Rebellion.

[Tiberios]

I'm leaning towards the Ottomans. Now I know that the two states are far from eachother and would have major troop transporting issues but in a purely hypothetical scenario where troop transport is not an issue who do you think would win?

But you can't just say that troops transport isn't a factor. There are loads and loads of factors playing into a war. Who attacks who? Does the attacking army advance over land or by sea? If the latter is the case, then we have to factor in the Chinese and Ottoman Navy as well. I think you need to narrow down your scenario and establish who attacks who and so on. Otherwise it'll just be wild speculation.

Anyway a simple try, it will depend on who is the attacker and who is defending. The Ottomans would probably not be able to defeat China in an offensive war. Supply lines would be long and the Chinese would be fighting on their home soil. Furthermore the Ottoman Armies wiould be numerically inferior to the Chinese and the Chinese army had been modernizing since their defeat in the war with Japan in 1894-1895. If this modernization had been completed before the 1900 and this proposed war with Japan, then I think the Ottomans would have a hard time defeating the Chinese Army. Furthermore, IMO, China would be better able to handle the economic demands of a war than the Ottomans. So bascily I'd say China woulod win if they fought a defensive war and the Ottomans if they fought a defensive war.

[RO Citizen]

Although a sickman, the Ottoman Empire had much more modern weapons and techniques than the Qing China, which would collapse into chaos 11 years later.

[hellheaven1987]

Probably Qing, but be honest it depends where the operational ground was.

By the way Qing and Ottoman actually used same type of German equipments.

[Erebus Pasha]

As alternative scenario's go this has to be one of the more far fetched ones.

[6644kp]

Its a pretty interesting one, of course in reality neither powers would wage such a war but I agree with most posters that the Ottomans would win. The Chinese forces were a joke at the time, the 2500 alliance troops meant the end for the Chinese.

[irontaino]

If the Qing sent Kansu Braves over, then it wouldn't be any contest

[Erebus Pasha]

Its a pretty interesting one, of course in reality neither powers would wage such a war but I agree with most posters that the Ottomans would win. The Chinese forces were a joke at the time, the 2500 alliance troops meant the end for the Chinese.

It was due just for the fact that the Ottomans had no colonial interests in the Pacific, although the Germans did request the Sultan Caliph to stop the Muslim Kansu Braves from fighting in the Boxer Rebellion. I think what would stand against the Chinese at the time is that the Imperial Army, if you could call in that, was not exactly what you would call a unified entity. China suffered from warlordism, and the military forces were in effect private property of these warlords and they had a varying degree of quality. The Chinese naval forces were rebuilding after being destroyed by the Japanese.

The Ottomans were in no great shape themselves, but the reforms under the direction of German advisors (under the leadership of Colmar Von Der Goltz) were beginning to take shape. The staff system proved to be very competent and the army was being armed with German weaponry. The Ottoman did lack good and experienced NCO's and there was a difference between the Nizamiye (the regulars) and the Redif (the reserves) but it's fair to say there would've been more than a match on the battlefield for the Chinese under good leadership. The navy comprised mostly of ageing ironclads and cruisers and would prove incapable of matching the Italian and Greek navies during the Ottoman-Italian War of 1911-12 and the First Balkan War respectively.

This though is just a generalization of the two sides military strengths and doesn't take into account the factors that posters like Kralle has already mentioned.

[neoptolemos]

The fact that Ottomans were in decline as a state and as an army, despite the glorious past and the military tradition, is a con for them. Nevertheless the Europeanization of the army, which was in progress in that period of time, would somehow counterbalanced the situation. I ll favor Ottomans.

[saglam2000]

The duel of the cripples

[Erebus Pasha]

The fact that Ottomans were in decline as a state and as an army, despite the glorious past and the military tradition, is a con for them. Nevertheless the Europeanization of the army, which was in progress in that period of time, would somehow counterbalanced the situation. I ll favor Ottomans.

The process of Europeanization of the army had begun at the end of the 18th century but only began to make real progess after the destruction of the Janissary Corps by Mahmud II. By the late 19th century the Ottoman Army was trained and advised by German officers and being supplied with German military equipment. It had performed bravely against the Russians and had swept aside the Greeks in 1897.

[neoptolemos]

The process of Europeanization of the army had begun at the end of the 18th century but only began to make real progess after the destruction of the Janissary Corps by Mahmud II. By the late 19th century the Ottoman Army was trained and advised by German officers and being supplied with German military equipment. It had performed bravely against the Russians and had swept aside the Greeks in 1897.

Although i agree with you, the ill-prepared Greek army of a default country as an opponent is not a good example of military prowess.The 19897 war was suicidal on behalf of Greece.
But i am referring to the German officers and their tactics who you correctly mention!!!

[hellheaven1987]

The process of Europeanization of the army had begun at the end of the 18th century but only began to make real progess after the destruction of the Janissary Corps by Mahmud II. By the late 19th century the Ottoman Army was trained and advised by German officers and being supplied with German military equipment. It had performed bravely against the Russians and had swept aside the Greeks in 1897.

Which was same for Qing China, at least the regular (Manchuarian Banners) were equipped with most advanced German equipments at that time. The puzzle of Boxer Rebellion was that many Chinese commanders fully realized that Imperial government was not serious about the war and acted disobey when military orders came down (for example, the Banners were purposely not following the order of seizing foreign embassies in Beiking, prefer to missfire every shot of their Krupp artillery so the embassies would not be destroyed in first minute of war).

[Borislav]

With a *wubing* leader like Cixi behind the throne? I'd wish the Turk to win if I'm a Chinese! No seriously China will not stand a chance of winning against Turkey because China is messed-up politically- just way too corrupt compare to Turkey. China's military funds intended for the modernisation of the navy were diverted by Cixi to build her palaces and celebrate her birthday! China ended up firing shells stuffed with rocks and mud in the 1st Sino-Japanese War.

[Paleface Killer]

I think people are underestimsting chinese here. Before the eight nation alliance an european expedition was actually defeated by the boxers. Even during the 8-nation alliance, China did not even fight the invaders with full force.

[KnightsTemplar]

RISE, THE FALLEN THREAD!

Well, is there really an 'European expedition'?
Haven't heard of it really.
IIRC The Boxers killed one or two Japan/Germany embassy staff.

[Lasiin]

What would happen if these two dying empires went to war went to war with eachother. The Chinese were beaten and humilitated in the Boxer Rebellion in which the Eight Nation Alliance only commited 2500 troops. After their victory the alliance nations were seriously considering carving China up between them.

The Ottomans on the otherhand still showed they had some steam left in the Greco-Turkish War of 1897 which resulted on Ottoman victory. And during the First World War they put up quite a fight as well and made gains in the Caucases and won in Gallipoli though in the end they lost the war.

I'm leaning towards the Ottomans. Now I know that the two states are far from eachother and would have major troop transporting issues but in a purely hypothetical scenario where troop transport is not an issue who do you think would win?

Wrong.#1 The Qing dynasty and the Ottoman empire clashed indirectly during the Dungan Revolt when the Ottomans supported the muslim rebel Yaqub Beg, and the Qing forces trounced the Ottoman led rebels, capturing and torturing ottoman military officers. Yaqub Beg's children were all castrated by the chinese, which was a total humiliation for the Ottoman backed rebels. The ottomans gave tons of guns and weapons to Yaqub Beg, and ottoman officers had trained his army"Ya'qub probably had been in touch with the Ottoman sultanate in the late 1860s, but it was not until 1873 that the Sublime Porte's recognition of his kingdom was made public. He was made an emir and in the same year the sultan-caliph sent him a gift of three thousand rifles, thirty cannon, and three Turkish military instructors. "from " Late Ch'ing, 1800-1911" by John King Fairbank, Kwang-Ching Liu, Denis Crispin Twitchetton pages 175 and 176, of"Holy war in China: the Muslim rebellion and state in Chinese Central Asia, 1864-1877" by Ho-dong Kim, a graphic account of Chinese officers torturing Ottoman turkish officers by stripping them naked and shoving skewers into their fingernails is recorded, after the Chinese victory by General Zuo Zongtang.General Zuo's Chu army was armed with western guns and totally beat Yaqub Beg. #1 China did not just face 2,500 troops during the Boxer Rebellion. It faced over 100,000 russian troops who invaded Manchuria at the same time as the 2,500 eight nation alliance force made it to Beijing. that means the chinese outnumbered by tens of thousands of men.#2 the Chinese forces in fact humiliated and defeated the first Eight Nation alliance attempt to make it to Beijing, in the Seymour expedition. chinese forces led by Nie Shicheng, along with Boxers, expelled them back to Tianjin. At the battle of Tianjin itself, Chinese snipers killed hundreds of eight nation alliance forces before retreating.#3 The chinese could have leveled the Europeans trapped in the legations in Beijing during the Boxer rebellion. They had dozens of krupp artillery guns at their disposal. Ronglu, the supreme commander of the chinese forces, deliberately ordered the Chinese forces NOT to destroy the legations and deliberately aim the guns high to miss. Many western historians wrote about this, like Peter Fleming in his book on the boxer rebellion. krupp guns were found all over beijing after the war was over, and thousands of unused shells.#4, Only four groups of armies responded to Beijing's declaration of war against the eight nation alliance. One group was the Manchu banner corps in Beijing itself, around 30,000. Anothe was the Muslim Gansu Army, 10,000 men strong. Two other armies led by Nie Shicheng and another by Ma Yukun and Songqing were stationed at Tianjin.All the other chinese modernized armies, which had modern guns and equipment, led by Generals Zhang Zhidong, Li Hongzhang, and Yuan Shikai, ignored the Imperial declaration of war, and assured the eight nation alliance that they would stay neutral. In fact, Yuan Shikai viciously massacred boxers in Shandong, preventing them from attacking the europeans.Li hongzhang lied to the europeans, telling them through telegrams that the chinese had massacred all the foreigners in the legations, when in fact, the command ronglu ordered the chinese troops to spare the foreigners. Li hoped that the eight nation alliance would wipe out his rivals in Beijing.Of the Chinese armies which fought, the Gansu muslims were well armed with modern guns, and they were succesful in battle. the manchus banners had some modern guns, as did Nie's army at Tianjin, which inflicted heavy losses on the eight nation alliance.