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  1. #1
    The Dude's Avatar Praeses
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    Default New distinctions of atheism

    More and more does the urgency of a new approach to atheism become clear to me. The old definitions, ie weak and strong atheism, agnostic atheism, you name it, simply will not do. Not only do they paint a blatantly false picture of what atheism is to believers, the old terms also make self proclaimed atheists confused about what they are. So I post this hoping to have some sort of an influence on how we treat the atheist phenomenon at least on this forum.

    Let me first begin by reiterating a stance that I have often taken but wil make expressly clear once more for the purpose of this thread. Atheism is a metaphysical stance when it is a rejection of the theist claim about the origin of existence. Atheism is a rejectionist stance by nature because it cannot exist without its counterpart. This is a simple matter of word definitions and us ascribing the appropriate meaning to them.

    Theism is also a metaphysical stance, namely in that it says something about the nature and/or origin of Being. This should be no controversial claim, unless someone wishes to raise the point that theism is in essence ethical or epistemological or what else. Sincerely doubting that there is anyone willing to engage in that debate, let us concede to this: as a metaphysical stance, theism often has ethical and epistemological implications when applied to a consistent philosophy.

    Now the problem that we often have is that we conflate the notions of atheism and [political] ideology, aswell as theism and religion. Religion stands to theism as the ethical offspring of a metaphysical stance, as I outlined above, and so does [political] ideology to atheism. I am bracketing the world political because more often than not, ideologies are practiced on a political level but it is likely that there exist such cases where ideologies have nothing to do with politics whatsoever.

    We are all familiar with the discussions in which these concepts are inappropriately applied. "Atheism is bad, because Hitler and Stalin and Kim Jong Il." Or: "people who believe in God are the likes of pedophile popes that start crusades and Osama Bin Laden who leads a terrorist organisation, look where belief gets you."

    We confuse these notions easily because we rarely meet a theist who is religiously neutral and we rarely meet a vocal atheist who is not politically driven. You could argue that the majority of atheism in the western world today exists precisely because of a growing sense of apathy for and disinterest in matters of faith and philosophy, but then we are not talking about vocal atheists at all, and we have actually stumbled by accident onto an example that will serve my case very well.

    When I say that the contemporary use of the word atheism is a misleading one, I point in particular to all those in the west today who claim to be atheist but in truth are indifferent about spiritual and/or metaphysical matters. They are not so much atheists as they are absentists, ie people who are absent of any real stance to take. When you ask them what their opinion is they will say "I'm not sure" or something similar, or will instead express some nondescript platitude which they hope will satisfy the requirements of the question. I expect that some will argue that if they do not believe in god, then they are still atheists and therefore my point has been refuted, but I disagree.

    Inherent in the definition of atheism is an implied activity. It is a stance contrary to something. X has been posited, and the atheist says: not-X. That denial alone rests on consideration, which is an activity. If one has not arrived at the position of not-X by considering X, then one really hasn't engaged in any activity at all and is simply being intellectually lazy.

    You may wonder how one can arrive at not-X by not first considering X, but keep in mind that X itself had to be first considered aswell, and so there is a state of mind pre-X, if you will, where a person has simply not given anything enough attention to be familiar with the notion at stake.

    Let's then discharge the intellectually lazy of their atheist title and simply accept them as being willing and ready to accept much of anything and challenge as little as they can. I suspect that the reason for the success of dogmatism in whatever shape (political or religious) is due to the overabudance of these people, and it's for good reason that Immanuel Kant hoped that the Enlightment would bring about the intellectual autonomy he held so dear. Unfortately it did not and Enlightment has now simply become another poorly considered dogma that gets repeated in schools and discussions, but that aside.

    The second most common form of atheism is what I refer to as ethical atheism. This is not so much a stance that runs contrary to the notion of theism, but it is a result of the conflation of terms that I mentioned earlier. Theism and religion are held to be synonyms by the ethical atheism, and the evils of religion are in this worldview spawned more or less directly from a belief in god. The mistake in this assumption is of course that all possible notions of god are represented by the religions in existence today, when as with anything to do with human imagination, there is really no end to how many incarnations of the divine we can conjure up. A non-religious theist is often acknowledged by the ethical atheist as being a possibility but since they seem relatively harmless they can be discounted and so the attention doesn't have to shift from religious theists at all.

    Atheism in this case, then, is also an active stance since it is once more a considered rejection. Not a well considered one perhaps, but considered nonetheless. It is in this case a rejection of all that religion stands for and the practices it engages in. Religion is held to be responsible for evil, and since all religious people are held to be theists, theists are held to be responsible for evil.

    Now earlier I outlined that religion is theism's ethically implicated offspring, and while I understand that this position will need a lot more clarification (which I assume I will use other posts in this thread for) I will simply hold to it for now and assume that even if you are somewhat suspicious of that claim, you will come around to accepting it when I clarify it further.

    Now if metaphysical theism spawns ethical religion, why does metaphysical atheism not spawn ethical atheism? The reason for this is simple: atheism, as a counter-stance, is spawned from the notion it rejects. Metaphysical atheism may imply a certain set of ethics (as SigniferOne so often argues) but that is not what is meant by the term Ethical Atheism. When I say Ethical Atheism, what I mean is a form of atheism that is spawned from a disapproval of religious ethics that are held to be a synonym with theist ethics.

    What I have hoped to achieve with this thread is to dispell the notions of strong and weak atheism, especially the casual application of the latter term to a tremendous group of absentists (or apatheists) and replace them instead with terms that better represent the source of a particular atheist's considered rejection. It should be clear that I hold metaphysical atheism to be the superior stance of the two, since metaphysical atheism is spawned from the very root of the debate whereas ethical atheism conflates notions and cares little for untangling them.

    Nevertheless, both have their place in society as ethical atheism is often the starting point for many atheists, but also the main source of religious conversion (out of the two) for those followers of religion with a strong enough argument to dispell the ethical atheist's objections. With this new dichotomy and the particularities it entails, another possibility also becomes distinctly clear: people often say that it is impossible for religion and belief in god to stop becoming a factor in society, and that theism is simply inherent in man. In essence, all that would be required for atheism to become humanity's new philosophical direction is for metaphysical atheism to convince the religious first and theists second of its the superiority of its arguments.
    Last edited by The Dude; June 08, 2011 at 03:37 AM.
    I have approximate answers and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything, and many things I don’t know anything about. But I don’t have to know an answer. I don’t feel frightened by not knowing.
    - Richard Feynman's words. My atheism.

  2. #2
    cfmonkey45's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: New distinctions of atheism

    Quite frankly, I enjoy reading your posts because you underscore, concede, and then discard the very fallacies that makes atheism so anathematizing to the religious.

    If I understand this correctly, you're arguing against defining atheism in terms of degrees of assurance and instead, arguing that it should be dividing into the principle or primary causes for the rejection of theism, metaphysical objects, as well as ethical. I think the only adequate response is to question the superiority of several arguments of atheism.

    Apart from that, nice article. +Rep.

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    The Dude's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: New distinctions of atheism

    Quote Originally Posted by cfmonkey45 View Post
    Quite frankly, I enjoy reading your posts because you underscore, concede, and then discard the very fallacies that makes atheism so anathematizing to the religious.

    If I understand this correctly, you're arguing against defining atheism in terms of degrees of assurance and instead, arguing that it should be dividing into the principle or primary causes for the rejection of theism, metaphysical objects, as well as ethical. I think the only adequate response is to question the superiority of several arguments of atheism.

    Apart from that, nice article. +Rep.
    This is pretty much what I'm saying, yeah. Basically, if there's anything to be gained at all from having a majority of mankind adopt an atheist stance, then that "battle" must be fought at the metaphysical level first and foremost. And that's not simply a discussion of "does God exist", because that sort of discussion of quickly and radically devolves into mudslinging by people still struggling with the problem of evil (which admittedly is a fairly big obstacle to overcome, but reading Spinoza will help ).

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    Yeah pretty damn good. Your post quality seems to be on a meteoric rise and has been for a while - brain steroids?
    Thanks mate, I appreciate the compliment. I think it's mostly due to the fact that I've always been good at converting abstract notions and feelings into language, but now that I've been studying philosophy for the last year I find myself suddenly equipped with the tools I need to really shape my ideas and thoughts. So I guess that helped.

    One good example of that is this thread. I've always felt that there was something inherently different from how I experienced my atheism and how my "fellow" atheists did. I've finally managed to really bring across the point that I want, I think. A good cleanup and reorganising of the atheist camp will do us all a lot of good, I think.
    Last edited by The Dude; June 07, 2011 at 05:04 PM.
    I have approximate answers and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything, and many things I don’t know anything about. But I don’t have to know an answer. I don’t feel frightened by not knowing.
    - Richard Feynman's words. My atheism.

  4. #4
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: New distinctions of atheism

    Yeah pretty damn good. Your post quality seems to be on a meteoric rise and has been for a while - brain steroids?

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    CamilleBonparte's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: New distinctions of atheism

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    Yeah pretty damn good. Your post quality seems to be on a meteoric rise and has been for a while - brain steroids?
    If that's the case you really need to take some yourself DC. All you seem to produce are straw man arguments, generalizations, and revisionist historical statements not based in fact. As a matter of fact, a lot of The Dude's criticisms in this post can easily be directed at yourself.
    "If History is deprived of the truth, we are left with nothing but an idle, unprofitable tale." - Polybius
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  6. #6

    Default Re: New distinctions of atheism

    My view of atheism has always been that it is a stance that rejects irrational beliefs, be they the tooth fairy or Christianity. Debating with theists gives them undeserving credibility, the only proper response to people who espouses belief in gods is advise them to seek psychiatric assistance.

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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: New distinctions of atheism

    " My view of atheism has always been that it is a stance that rejects irrational beliefs, be they the tooth fairy or Christianity. Debating with theists gives them undeserving credibility, the only proper response to people who espouses belief in gods is advise them to seek psychiatric assistance. "

    Khassaki,

    Now why would that be? The athiest disbelieves that there is a God only because God has primarily done nothing for him. Bringing psychiatric assistance into the equation ain't going to help as the pursuer of that profession may well be just as blind to God as the athiest is.

    No my friends, what you have to look into is the root cause of all unbelief. God, yes this God, who doesn't exist, has already told you why you can't believe and strangely enough there are no categories involved as to whether it is strong or weak. If it is only a fairy story then fairies must exist because I know my God and Saviour exists.

    And, the strange thing is this exceptional Fairy is drawing people to Him all across the divides even as I write to such an extent that many disbelievers can see the results but still demand the attention of a psychiatrist to make them able to have some explanation for what has happened to their relative or friend.

  8. #8

    Default Re: New distinctions of atheism

    Atheism isn't a rejectionist stance by nature.
    That would be like assuming that God (or gods) exists, since it exists, not believing in it is a rejection.

    Atheism, linguistically is a negation, the negation in the belief in god(s), but it's because it was used in opposition to people believing in god(s).

    Theism isn't considered to be a rejectionist stance toward Atheism, even though it is in a way... (Or rather it isn't anymore than atheism is toward theism).

    How can you reject something that doesn't exist ?

    Atheism reject religion... But Atheism doesn't need religion, or god, to exist. Without religion or god, people would be atheists... So it'snt "by nature" that it is rejectionist.

    I don't know if i am clear in what i try to advance (or even if i really understood what was meant).
    Last edited by Keyser; June 07, 2011 at 05:23 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: New distinctions of atheism

    @ The Dude:
    What about Far Eastern inbetweem-ims that are metaphysical-atheistic ethical religions (as classical buddhism) or that are metaphysical-atheistic "moral" semi-religious ideologies (as chan buddhism or on turiya focused advaita vedanta schools)?
    How would you classify them? As hybrids of metaphysical atheistism and by theism inspired religious ideology? As an indepentend class? Or maybe more as inferior collage of reason and belief? Or... ?

    Edit: btw... I consider myself to be a metaphysical atheist (by your definition) and ethical non-theist. But I'm not sure if your definition of metaphysical atheist can or can not include ethical non-theism.


    @ Keyer:
    For your personal use just replace the term atheism with non-theism, if someone asks. That makes things much easier, is maybe more correct in your case anyway (only guessing though) and may take an edge out of the standard theists arguments vs. people that don't believe in their god/s - now your not an a-theist that is in opposition to their imaginary god/s but simply a non-theist.
    Last edited by hardrive; June 07, 2011 at 07:35 PM.

  10. #10
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: New distinctions of atheism

    Much Buddhist theory is definitely not inferior, especially ethically or more importantly reasons to have ethics.

  11. #11

    Default Re: New distinctions of atheism

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    Much Buddhist theory is definitely not inferior, especially ethically or more importantly reasons to have ethics.
    I personally respect buddhist philosophy (at least it's core without the religious aspects). It's metaphysics - or the lack of it as you will - has an unusual but reasonable simplicity.

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    Tuor's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: New distinctions of atheism

    I think I would agree in part with your new terms, but I do not agree at all with throwing out the old. It's my opinion that we shouldn't try to fix what isn't broken. Add some new terms to the table, sure, but nothing is inherently wrong with what I've listed below.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    "A diagram showing the relationship between the definitions of weak/strong and implicit/explicit atheism. Explicit strong/positive/hard atheists (in purple on the right) assert that "at least one deity exists" is a false statement. Explicit weak/negative/soft atheists (in blue on the right) reject or eschew belief that any deities exist without actually asserting that "at least one deity exists" is a false statement. Implicit weak/negative atheists (in blue on the left) would include people (such as young children and some agnostics) who do not believe in a deity, but have not explicitly rejected such belief. (Sizes in the diagram are not meant to indicate relative sizes within a population.)" -- from Wikipedia's atheism article

    The above, in my opinion, is as simple as it gets.

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    Default Re: New distinctions of atheism

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    Inherent in the definition of atheism is an implied activity. It is a stance contrary to something. X has been posited, and the atheist says: not-X. That denial alone rests on consideration, which is an activity. If one has not arrived at the position of not-X by considering X, then one really hasn't engaged in any activity at all and is simply being intellectually lazy.

    You may wonder how one can arrive at not-X by not first considering X, but keep in mind that X itself had to be first considered aswell, and so there is a state of mind pre-X, if you will, where a person has simply not given anything enough attention to be familiar with the notion at stake.
    [ . . . ]
    The mistake in this assumption is of course that all possible notions of god are represented by the religions in existence today, when as with anything to do with human imagination, there is really no end to how many incarnations of the divine we can conjure up.
    It appears to me [at this late hour] that everyone could simultaneously hold many "not-X" positions with, likely, even more "pre-X" in addition to, at least temporary, "lazyness" to others, even if they additionally held positions "X".

    i.e.
    Person knows of position "Amish";
    Person takes position "Amish"
    Person is "pre-Hutterites".
    Person learns of position "Hutterites" existence
    Person is temporarily intellectually lazy to position "Hutterites"
    Person learns about position "Hutterites"
    Person takes position "not-Hutterites"
    Person is "pre-Mar Thoma Church"
    Person is "pre-Ayyavazhi"
    Person is "pre-Slavic polytheism"
    ect.
    If the soul is impartial in receiving information, it devotes to that information the share of critical investigation the information deserves, and its truth or untruth thus becomes clear. However, if the soul is infected with partisanship for a particulat opinion or sect, it accepts without a moment’s hesitation the information that is agreeable to it.—Ibn Khaldun.

  14. #14

    Default Re: New distinctions of atheism

    Quote Originally Posted by Boer View Post
    It appears to me [at this late hour] that everyone could simultaneously hold many "not-X" positions with, likely, even more "pre-X" in addition to, at least temporary, "lazyness" to others, even if they additionally held positions "X".

    i.e.
    Person knows of position "Amish";
    Person takes position "Amish"
    Person is "pre-Hutterites".
    Person learns of position "Hutterites" existence
    Person is temporarily intellectually lazy to position "Hutterites"
    Person learns about position "Hutterites"
    Person takes position "not-Hutterites"
    Person is "pre-Mar Thoma Church"
    Person is "pre-Ayyavazhi"
    Person is "pre-Slavic polytheism"
    ect.
    The utility I see in the weak/strong atheism perspective, is that it classifies those who are '(atheos), meaning "without god",' immediately into their proper category. For every philosophical question, I think it is a bit laborious to create an infinite number of "ignoro/apatheist" groups, rather than just calling people what they are - implicitly not believers in God or some philosophical idea. This is still in opposition to the affirmative theism in the sense that it is the rejection of belief in means other than through the purely intellectual. That is, weak atheists are essentially that - not strong enough to make a philosophical move, or too lazy/unmotivated to do so.

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    The Dude's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: New distinctions of atheism

    Quote Originally Posted by Boer View Post
    It appears to me [at this late hour] that everyone could simultaneously hold many "not-X" positions with, likely, even more "pre-X" in addition to, at least temporary, "lazyness" to others, even if they additionally held positions "X".

    i.e.
    Person knows of position "Amish";
    Person takes position "Amish"
    Person is "pre-Hutterites".
    Person learns of position "Hutterites" existence
    Person is temporarily intellectually lazy to position "Hutterites"
    Person learns about position "Hutterites"
    Person takes position "not-Hutterites"
    Person is "pre-Mar Thoma Church"
    Person is "pre-Ayyavazhi"
    Person is "pre-Slavic polytheism"
    ect.
    Exactly. Many of us are pre-All-of-that simply because none of those things have ever come up to us as being worthy of negation. Only at the moment that we consider a theory enough to find a motivation to reject it should we be called "A-whatever". Atheist, in this particular case.
    I have approximate answers and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything, and many things I don’t know anything about. But I don’t have to know an answer. I don’t feel frightened by not knowing.
    - Richard Feynman's words. My atheism.

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    Default Re: New distinctions of atheism

    Brilliant !!!

    Well this kind of approach towards Atheism deserves a genuine praise, and I say this without reading any answers(thus possibly being disturbed from your original meaning ). From a “theist” and somewhat “religious” point of view, I can only wander, how is possible that such wisdom is not ready to yield it’s inspiration to a “divine wisdom”... Not being sarcastic whatsoever: Just honestly putting on paper my fist reaction to your message.

    Don’t worry (and I fear you have no reason to...): I’ll come with something to counteract your idea(s), and if not successful (for sure) at least I’ll try , while dressing my wounded pride, to enjoy the richness of what will be uncovered.

    My first try (ahem)
    You:
    Religion is held to be responsible for evil, and since all religious people are held to be theists, theists are held to be responsible for evil.
    ( statement? implication? accusation?)

    me:
    Religion is held to be responsible for evil, but IS really responsible for evil? Is not perhaps a response, to “slow” down humanity’s predisposition to engage to easily in “evil” ? And hence the religion (did)does not succeed (in Your opinion, if I understood correctly), didn’t at least diminished the potential of “evil” ?
    Isn’t in human nature to do evil? Not us today in particular, but as a general notion/definition of what humanity actually is, when it stands naked of its’ self-declared perfections before the Natures‘ (God?) judgement?.

    quoting myself:
    “To accuse, undermine, the need of the divine, is to utterly ignore different individual situations that ultimately triggered faith. And ignoring is not a recipes for “proving” , it is just a human defence to hold on to your own values because you know that what you believe is the truth ! No other witness, explanation or proof will change your mind. The “I know better” is valid for me as for you. Those among us that are indulging foreign ideas are either just intelligent enough to do it, or not that intelligent....”

    Well, after this I’ll read further the debate....
    D I V I D E - ET - I M P E R A

    & A PROPER EMPIRE: TERRA INCOGNITA .... A P E - T I
    __________________________________________________________________________________________________
    "Perhaps, as some wit remarked, the best proof that there is Intelligent Life in Outer Space is the fact it hasn't come here. Well, it can't hide forever - one day we will overhear it."

  17. #17

    Default Re: New distinctions of atheism

    @ Krixux

    Religion is held to be responsible for evil, and since all religious people are held to be theists, theists are held to be responsible for evil.
    I'm not sure if I get The Dude right here, but he may be meaning the concept of evil and not evil as a real object or any kind of entity. And btw, he is saying "held to be" and not "are".
    And as far as I know, the idea or concept of evil as we in the "West" know it, has it's orignins in Near Eastern monotheisms and their derivations. Ancient Romans and Germanic or Celtic peoples for instance didn't have the concept of evil - or to be more precise, the dualism of (pure) goodness and badness as known for example in Christianity (with it's purely "good" god and "evil" satan).
    Last edited by hardrive; June 08, 2011 at 04:09 AM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: New distinctions of atheism

    Quote Originally Posted by hardrive View Post
    I'm not sure if I get The Dude right here, but he may be meaning the concept of evil and not evil as a real object or any kind of entity. And btw, he is saying "held to be" and not "are".
    And as far as I know, the idea or concept of evil as we in the "West" know it, has it's orignins in Near Eastern monotheisms and their derivations. Ancient Romans and Germanic or Celtic peoples for instance didn't have the concept of evil - or to be more precise, the dualism of (pure) goodness and badness as known for example in Christianity (with it's purely "good" god and "evil" satan).
    That distinction appears with Ahura Mazda as far as i recall.

    Again religion is being given too much credibility. Human nature seeks answers and rules to mitigate fear, be it of the unknown or of interactions between people. In the absence of better answers religions provided these and so is blamed for the consequences. Religion could not answer questions about the unknown except by rectificating the the laws and unknowns of the universe into gods. As far as defining good and evil, it had better success though things like the Sumerian/Jewish/Christian 10 commandments.

    Religion was just a symptom of an ignorant age. It was initially just used for answers to unanswerable questions of the time, but it became a tool of those able to use it, to feed their greed and thirst for power. The flaws of religion were human flaws and not those of some imaginary deity.

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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: New distinctions of atheism

    " Human nature seeks answers and rules to mitigate fear,...."

    Khassaki,

    Exactly, because it is written that all men fear death most of all and they need an answer. God gave them that answer way back in the garden and has continued to give them the same answer through the coming of Jesus Christ. Men may try to block that out but the nearer the leaving comes the more he begins to seek, to tidy up his life, even in the off-chance that there is a God.

    Where that goes all wrong is that men consider old age a certainty, yet God has declared that today may be the most important day in his life because there might not be a tomorrow. We don't have to look beyond our TV's or radios to see how poiniant that is as disaster is never far away in whatever context that may be. If one doesn't want to die then look to Jesus.

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    The Dude's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: New distinctions of atheism

    Quote Originally Posted by hardrive View Post
    @ Krixux

    I'm not sure if I get The Dude right here, but he may be meaning the concept of evil and not evil as a real object or any kind of entity. And btw, he is saying "held to be" and not "are".
    And as far as I know, the idea or concept of evil as we in the "West" know it, has it's orignins in Near Eastern monotheisms and their derivations. Ancient Romans and Germanic or Celtic peoples for instance didn't have the concept of evil - or to be more precise, the dualism of (pure) goodness and badness as known for example in Christianity (with it's purely "good" god and "evil" satan).
    I mean practical wrongdoings, as in the examples I mentioned of distorted debate. Pedophiliac priests, extremists, etc. These are evil insofar as we regard these things as undesirable, but they are not directly spawned from theism as a metaphysical notion. What ethical atheists do however is conflate the notions of theism and religion and ascribe the fault to belief in god and not to the particular ethical instance of that metaphysical belief that is represented by whatever religion is held to be faulty.

    I could name a great many things that are wrong with religion, but none of those points would necessarily say anything about belief in god itself. We need to keep these things distinct to have any idea of what we're talking about.

    Khassaki in this thread insists on referring to theism as a mental illness that should be treated by doctors. This is prime evidence of a person who has no idea what the phenomenon that he opposes is and I am convinced that a lot of his bitterness comes not from engaging in metaphysical debate and finding himself unequipped with the means to win it, but from engaging in discussion with dogmatic followers of religion who tend to display more disturbing properties.
    I have approximate answers and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything, and many things I don’t know anything about. But I don’t have to know an answer. I don’t feel frightened by not knowing.
    - Richard Feynman's words. My atheism.

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