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Thread: [GENERAL DISCUSSION] [SPOILERS] G.R.R.Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire

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  1. #1

    Default [GENERAL DISCUSSION] [SPOILERS] G.R.R.Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire

    **this post contains spoilers if you haven't read the books**

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    This is a question I'd like to throw out there. Far be it for me to critisize GRRM but, having read the entire series twice, it seems to me that our fav author is hellbent on punishing House Stark in every way imaginable. Ok, I get that this series is not like others, and that the good guys don't necessarily win, but, even given all this, I have to wonder if the Starks were not created simply to act as punching bags for "evil". At this point in the series, I really can't see how they could make a comeback without some Biblical-scale deus ex machinas.

    - The patriarch is dead. The matriarch is a zombie.
    - The eldest son is dead. The second son is a cripple on a mystic quest beyond the wall. The third son is both too young to be a dramatic character, and out of sight for now. The bastard son has carved his own niche away from the main branch of the family. Besides, he was never a legally a Stark.
    - The eldest daughter is essentially a hostage to an extremely devious man of unknown purpose beyond his own survival and quest for power. The younger daughter is in a foreign land, completely cut-off from Westeros, without friends, and learning assasin skills.
    - All the Stark retainers of any note are dead.
    - Winterfell is in ruins. The Northern lords have been defeated and are now led by a psycho who has the support of King's Landing.

    Going back to a point I made earlier, I do realize that GRRM's intent with ASoIaF was to portray realistic people in a fantasy environment, and that few of the characters are either completely good or evil. Having said that, it is clear from the way GoT opens and progresses that we are meant to sympathize with the Starks and it seems a tad callous to heap so much punishment on them without, so far, any kind of payoff. Sure, this can be remedied in future novels (I pray to the Seven every night that they let GRRM live long enough to finish the series) but, as I said, they are now so far removed from any form of power that their return would literally necessitate several miracles.

    Any thoughts ?

    Last edited by HannibalExMachina; June 15, 2011 at 04:38 AM.

  2. #2
    Captain Zoran's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: OT: Is Martin too hard on the Starks ?

    Quote Originally Posted by gapper4 View Post
    **this post contains spoilers if you haven't read the books**


    This is a question I'd like to throw out there. Far be it for me to critisize GRRM but, having read the entire series twice, it seems to me that our fav author is hellbent on punishing House Stark in every way imaginable. Ok, I get that this series is not like others, and that the good guys don't necessarily win, but, even given all this, I have to wonder if the Starks were not created simply to act as punching bags for "evil". At this point in the series, I really can't see how they could make a comeback without some Biblical-scale deus ex machinas.

    - The patriarch is dead. The matriarch is a zombie.
    - The eldest son is dead. The second son is a cripple on a mystic quest beyond the wall. The third son is both too young to be a dramatic character, and out of sight for now. The bastard son has carved his own niche away from the main branch of the family. Besides, he was never a legally a Stark.
    - The eldest daughter is essentially a hostage to an extremely devious man of unknown purpose beyond his own survival and quest for power. The younger daughter is in a foreign land, completely cut-off from Westeros, without friends, and learning assasin skills.
    - All the Stark retainers of any note are dead.
    - Winterfell is in ruins. The Northern lords have been defeated and are now led by a psycho who has the support of King's Landing.

    Going back to a point I made earlier, I do realize that GRRM's intent with ASoIaF was to portray realistic people in a fantasy environment, and that few of the characters are either completely good or evil. Having said that, it is clear from the way GoT opens and progresses that we are meant to sympathize with the Starks and it seems a tad callous to heap so much punishment on them without, so far, any kind of payoff. Sure, this can be remedied in future novels (I pray to the Seven every night that they let GRRM live long enough to finish the series) but, as I said, they are now so far removed from any form of power that their return would literally necessitate several miracles.

    Any thoughts ?
    I agree that he seems to be abit harsh on them, but still, its not as grim as it might seem if you think ahead. For instance:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    - Arya: Training to be an assassin... What does assassins do? Somehow I think we will get some really nice revenges on some bad characters from her.
    - Sansa: Hostage by possibly the most devious man in the Seven Kingdoms, but still... his pupil. Learning the true game of thrones that involve intrigues, diplomacy and cunning. I can imagine her becoming quite the advesary for the other players.
    - Bran: Training to learn magic or foresight. Do I need to say anything more? I think he will play a huge role to come.
    - Jon: Will ultimetly defeat the White Walkers (propably, one can never rule anything out with GRRM), and thus raise the prestiege nad in indirect ways help the remaining Starks and most importantly, Stannis. Im not sure, but Ive always had a feeling that Danearys and Jon will meet up and do something.


    Also, I know you say in your opening that its spoilers, but for the sake of it, when youre talking about spoilers, use the spoilers tag so noone who just glimpse by might catch something
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  3. #3
    bitterhowl's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: OT: Is Martin too hard on the Starks ?

    Their behaviour is too strait for world of Westeros. The consequences of their actions are natural. But they'll become a legend - like Florian, Baelor the Blessed - a family of martyres.

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  4. #4

    Default Re: OT: Is Martin too hard on the Starks ?

    I don`t think he`s too hard on them, the many things happening to them are direct results of their actions. For example; Ned could have avoided all this.




  5. #5
    martyran's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: OT: Is Martin too hard on the Starks ?

    And where did the imp go ....I got quite attached to him I wonder if he will turn up with on of the starks ???
    and Briene ..the maid of tarth will she agree to kill Jamie Lanister
    I realy need to get the next (last?) book

    and Please finish game ....partial update ..........please ...need to play .........

  6. #6

    Default Re: OT: Is Martin too hard on the Starks ?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Ive always liked to think that Littlefinger actually cares about Sansa, being Catelyn's daughter, and that he will not betray her and help her out.
    Also I firmly believe that Stannis is not Azor Azhai reborn(or however the hell you spell it) and that Danaerys is.
    -Maester Aemon said that Melisandre misinterpreted the prophecy and that it wasnt Stannis: Lightbringer has not hot, etc.
    -Danaerys was born amongst salt and smoke or whatever the prophecy says.
    -The whole thing about burning a king and raising stone dragons: Dany burnt her husband Khal Drogo, Khal means king in Dothraki, and turned her STONE dragon eggs into dragons and also in a sense tempered them with the life of her beloved with fits with the what Azor Azhai did by killing his wife with it to temper the blade.
    -We have heard from Sam when he did his research on the others that they can be killed by dragonglass, valyrian steel, and DRAGONS FIRE. I wonder who has dragons? Dany!!!
    -Theres some other things I had figured out at one point but I cant remember off the top of my head so ill update this post if I think of them
    Also I cant wait to see what happens with The Mage, the archmaester sam met, going to help Dany.
    Edit: realized I started to hijack this thread and talk about dany Someone mentioned Dany and Jon meeting so it made me remember this.
    Last edited by Jaime Goldenhand; June 07, 2011 at 10:16 AM.




  7. #7

    Default Re: OT: Is Martin too hard on the Starks ?

    I don't think that the Starks are being punished that hard. While they have certainly lost alot, they are put into a position unique to re-take everything and even more. If I would hazard a guess I would say that a classical "good guys turn everything around at last minute and takes it all" scenario is still their most likely future.

    And yes, I would dearly like to see them go down for good and real. Still I hope that it is done in a good way and I will have had plenty of time to feel joy for my favorites.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: OT: Is Martin too hard on the Starks ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurkhal View Post
    I don't think that the Starks are being punished that hard. While they have certainly lost alot, they are put into a position unique to re-take everything and even more. If I would hazard a guess I would say that a classical "good guys turn everything around at last minute and takes it all" scenario is still their most likely future.

    And yes, I would dearly like to see them go down for good and real. Still I hope that it is done in a good way and I will have had plenty of time to feel joy for my favorites.
    in some ways i feel that at the moment we're at "the empire strikes back" period for the starks now -
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    for the simple reason that if many more things go wrong there won't be a lot of starks left to worry about!

  9. #9
    Sandy's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: OT: Is Martin too hard on the Starks ?

    Definite ADWD spoilers

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Quote Originally Posted by gapper4 View Post
    **this post contains spoilers if you haven't read the books**

    - All the Stark retainers of any note are dead.
    - Winterfell is in ruins. The Northern lords have been defeated and are now led by a psycho who has the support of King's Landing.


    Any thoughts ?
    You might be wrong on that these two points see the below link for ADWD spoilers.
    http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php...lers-for-adwd/
    Last edited by Sandy; June 07, 2011 at 01:30 PM.

  10. #10
    Shadowlair's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: OT: Is Martin too hard on the Starks ?

    Or jon magically controlls the others and buttwipes all of the seven kingdoms into a fine dust, or paste even. and then rules as the cold people king ^^

    All hail dragonborn total war!!

  11. #11
    Sanguinary Guardian's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: OT: Is Martin too hard on the Starks ?

    People, stop whining. Every time you do, GRRM will kill even more Starks...




    H ΕΛΛΑΔΑ κι ο ΕΛΛΗΝΙΣΜΟΣ είναι αξίες ιερότερες από οποιαδήποτε ειρήνη!

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  12. #12

    Default Re: OT: Is Martin too hard on the Starks ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguinary Guardian View Post
    People, stop whining. Every time you do, GRRM will kill even more Starks...
    Lol it would be funny if he did it like that.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    "Im tired of people complaining about Ned dying. Maybe I'll kill Rob to shut them up?"
    Last edited by Jaime Goldenhand; June 08, 2011 at 02:57 PM.




  13. #13
    Sanguinary Guardian's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: OT: Is Martin too hard on the Starks ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaime Goldenhand View Post
    Lol it would be funny if he did it like that.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    "Im tired of people complaining about Ned dying. Maybe I'll kill Rob to shut them up?"
    Certainly, it explains a lot...




    H ΕΛΛΑΔΑ κι ο ΕΛΛΗΝΙΣΜΟΣ είναι αξίες ιερότερες από οποιαδήποτε ειρήνη!

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  14. #14

    Default Re: OT: Is Martin too hard on the Starks ?

    I don't think there will be the big comeback for the Starks. Martin will probably give them back what they've lost, but i don't think he's going to make the fatal mistake to write a typical "the good come back and take everything" story. Like making them kings of the seven kingdoms. I think they'll get back the north and have some pretty nice revenge, but nothing more. That would be perfect for me. Falling into stereotypes now would ruin the whole thing.


  15. #15

    Default Re: OT: Is Martin too hard on the Starks ?

    The last book of the series was originally going to be called "A time to wolves" buy was changed, probably because it was to spolierish. It looks like Martin is planning a Stark comeback at the end of the series. My guess is it will be Jon defeating the others and maybe R+L=J. I also Arya and Bran will come back and one of them will control the giant wolf pack lead by Nymeria.

  16. #16

    Default Re: OT: Is Martin too hard on the Starks ?

    Quote Originally Posted by .Doge. View Post
    I don't think there will be the big comeback for the Starks. Martin will probably give them back what they've lost, but i don't think he's going to make the fatal mistake to write a typical "the good come back and take everything" story. Like making them kings of the seven kingdoms. I think they'll get back the north and have some pretty nice revenge, but nothing more. That would be perfect for me. Falling into stereotypes now would ruin the whole thing.
    Ya, I agree, that would suit the series very well and I'd be very happy with that kind of ending. Just want the poor bastards to catch a break and see some of the worse villains get their dues.

  17. #17

    Default Re: OT: Is Martin too hard on the Starks ?

    Yeah A Time for Wolves would have been a huge giveaway. But as Jojen said the wolves will return. At the least Rikkon will return as Lord of Winterfell. I hope all the other kids live as well. I think Jon is most likely to die in a blaze of glory against the Others (but I hope he lives).

    Sansa as long as she causes the downfall of Littlefinger thats good with me. Keep her in the South if she comes North I'll pull my hair out.

    Arya will be a sneaky assasin, helping to mop up all the evil people as the series closes.

    So the Starks will recover. It is known.

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  18. #18

    Default Re: OT: Is Martin too hard on the Starks ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowKiller2000 View Post
    Yeah A Time for Wolves would have been a huge giveaway. But as Jojen said the wolves will return. At the least Rikkon will return as Lord of Winterfell. I hope all the other kids live as well. I think Jon is most likely to die in a blaze of glory against the Others (but I hope he lives).

    Sansa as long as she causes the downfall of Littlefinger thats good with me. Keep her in the South if she comes North I'll pull my hair out.

    Arya will be a sneaky assasin, helping to mop up all the evil people as the series closes.

    So the Starks will recover. It is known.
    I think Martins original plan may have been for Rickon to return to some form of power, but with him doing away with the five year break, he may have altered that plan. I think It will actually be the Lannisters (Jamies and Tyrion) who end up helping the Starks at the end.

  19. #19
    cormagus77's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: OT: Is Martin too hard on the Starks ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowKiller2000 View Post
    So the Starks will recover. It is known.
    It is known

    The way it goes with Bran, Jon and Arya, George R.R. Martin definitely has got some comeback for them in mind. Letting Bran and Arya walk "a thousand miles" for nothing would be really daft...

    But still I think on the way GRRM is too cruel with the Stark family. Especially Robbs, Catelyns and Eddards fate really annoyed me. It nearly made me set the book aside too, where it not for Bran, Jon and Arya!


  20. #20

    Default Re: OT: Is Martin too hard on the Starks ?

    Quote Originally Posted by cormagus77 View Post
    It is known
    Thank god you did that. It is known can not go unanswered for long, my braid-bells were already tingling
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    As for the topic, it did felt a bit ridiculous at times how the Starks got punched in the face at every possible occasion. It's not just the "big" impacts, but all the small sticks and stones on the way.

    Wheras everyone else seems to be able to produce several tenthousands of fighting men out of thin air (Lannisters raising what, 3 fresh hosts in the process of the war?) , the North & Riverlands combined were hard pressed to summon some 15.000 people, most of which slowly trailed off during the course of the war.
    Now i'm aware that the north is scarcely populated
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    (which raises the question how it could remain an independent realm for so long, posessing no fleet to speak of and obviously having 1/5 of the population of other "kingdoms". My guess would be that no one with any wits would want that cold steppe to begin with, and those who are stupid enough to do, are stupid enough to go for the Neck...but i'm joking. Still, it just feels strange)
    but the Riverlands are the central and most fertile part of the Seven Kingdoms, literally crowded with castles, holdfasts and towns.
    Even with all the factors taken into account (Being taken unaware by Lannister raiding parties, Edmure being as green a commander as it gets, most of his Bannerman being just as inapt), i kept wondering were they hid all their men.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Generally, during the course of the first books i couldn't stop wondering about the numbers. If the Reach can easily pop out some 60000 foot, why on earth haven't they took over the bloody country yet? But thats a different topic

    Additionaly, i've yet to come across some Lannister Deserters (The Mountain fighting & plundering in the Riverlands for the better part of a year without ever so much as resting), when it felt like the Northmen and Riverlords had to be dragged into every fight, kicking

    Then you've got some epic treachery going on, Bolton & Frey respectively. Now that seems to be something regular, and the only reason the Lannisters aren't plagued by it is Tywins "special" way to deal with disloyal subjects, but it makes you wonder why Ned Stark failed to anticipate Boltons Nature and keep him in check (or at least tell his son of that lovely "wear Stark hides for cloaks" history of House Bolton). When Robb makes him commander of his Foot, you get the impression he knows nothing about Bolton, apart from a first a glance impression.

    Granted, this whole point is rather weak, as treachery grows were people sense weakness (and that's something the Stark alliance had in abundance), but you can't shake the feeling that people are rather eager to gang up on the Starks there.
    Same with the Greyjoys. You'd think Lannisport & an alliance with Winterfell and Riverrun would be a jucier treat than some wooden hovels at the stony shore, but no, let's go hit the Starks. Now i know there's some deep rooted spite & pride in Balon after they ended his Rebellion, but i reckon the rivalry with House Lannister runs just as deep.

    In the end, i am not so much worried about the Stark children (which are all doing good, in weird ways, as being mentioned before), but about the North as a whole.
    Judging from it's military capacity, it seemed to be a no-mans land to begin with. During the course of the war, it has lost pretty much all its fighting men, those who aren't dead being unable to return due to both Neck and Twins being closed to them. Along with Robb, most of his Bannermen got killed at the Red Wedding as well, so all that remains for Bran to inherit is a burned, unpopulated castle and a huge land where the majority of fighting men answers to the Dreadfort or the Iron Islands, respectively.
    To that, add another upcoming Winter, probably the longest and fiercest in recorded history...

    Unless the Free Folk decides to forsake all it is and become loving & loyal smallfolk overnight, i see no way the North can recover within the lifespan of the remaining Starks. Another possibility would be Daenaerys landing at White Harbour and offering Bran her army for being such a poor, sweet Boy. Suffice to say, that's just as unlikely

    While i do hope that the Starks recover in some way, the realistic ways that it could happen grow ever more slim
    Last edited by Fulgrim88; June 16, 2011 at 03:54 PM.

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