The lost legion (in china)

[melnikovav]

I found this curious that Romans actually fought chinese. Check this article out. http://21cmarcopolo.wordpress.com/20...ancient-china/

[Rex Basiliscus]

I've read a novel about Roman soldiers that were captured along with the Roman Emperor Valerian at the Siege of Edessa in 280 AD. They were transported to work in some mines until they died, but they managed to escape... They went to China. It's a great read: http://www.amazon.com/Empire-Dragons...ef=pd_sim_b_20

[Pharoah]

Hmm this could make us rewrite history

[Neurosylum]

Very interesting!

[Lycaner]

They should make a movie about it......
And by the way 2 questions --- Can Roman testudo formation can withstand the massive wave of chinese crossbow?
--- If Romans fought Han Chinese ,Who will win?
(Just asking , Because they are the two superpower at that time , but never truelly fought each another)

[The excited one]

They should make a movie about it......
And by the way 2 questions --- Can Roman testudo formation can withstand the massive wave of chinese crossbow?
--- If Romans fought Han Chinese ,Who will win?
(Just asking , Because they are the two superpower at that time , but never truelly fought each another)

i m not sure about that who will win but i m sure they had some official contact between both empires and trade with each other somewhere in india or across the indian ocean but

for me the chinese might win since they had flexable cavalry as welll as heavy ones learning from their babaric neighbour of the Xiong-Nu on horse warfare and actually driven them to central asia by 100BC which some people say those Xiong-Nu people are actually huns migrating from outer skirts of china to the roman empire by the 4th century which is another atory

romans still relying on heavy infrantry until the 4th century after the masscare of Adrianople http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Adrianople which is the greatest defeat of the century since the whole of the eastern army of comprise of mostly infrantry while the goths were mostly cavalry which force the roman army to evolved from a heavy infrantry base soldiers to more of a flexable cavalry (which is why we got medieval knight on horses later on) and hire the babarians to do the job due to their experience of riding a horse than a roman which is also the causes of the decline of the western empire since they are over relying on those soldiers which lead to revolts, civil war and etc..........

[Spike]

come on, today, it's pretty common for Chinese in European contact areas to have blue eyes. .

[The excited one]

come on, today, it's pretty common for Chinese in European contact areas to have blue eyes. .

\

agreed

[donions]

romans still relying on heavy infrantry until the 4th century after the masscare of Adrianople http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Adrianople which is the greatest defeat of the century since the whole of the eastern army of comprise of mostly infrantry while the goths were mostly cavalry which force the roman army to evolved from a heavy infrantry base soldiers to more of a flexable cavalry (which is why we got medieval knight on horses later on) and hire the babarians to do the job due to their experience of riding a horse than a roman which is also the causes of the decline of the western empire since they are over relying on those soldiers which lead to revolts, civil war and etc..........

Those late empire armies were shadows of the Legions that conquered Europe, often led by fools. In this case(Adrianople) an especially foolish fool.

Its always fun playing the what if game, I often ponder what would have happened had Alexander survived his peaceful years and marched west.
The Romans and Hans in there prime would have been an epic clash, but never count out the Romans. They should have been wiped out so many times but somehow prevailed.

[vampiric_canniba]

Those late empire armies were shadows of the Legions that conquered Europe, often led by fools. In this case(Adrianople) an especially foolish fool.

I would not say that on the IB forums, donions. You might... not... survive... the sheer amount of historical research thrown at you.

[Grimbold]

No idea about the confrontation. The only notion that i have of ancient Chinese armies is that given by movies . That said, Roman legions would never withstand the might of the Qin Army!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4muBipy9-Q ... Just imagine for a bit that would actually be historicly correct.

[Sergeant Matt]

Roman heavy infantry was far superior to Chinese infantry, and it's heavy infantry that wins wars.

[ProvostGuard]

My areas of study are Greco-Roman and Chinese history, so I am conveniently able to comment on this subject.

Most scholars have rejected this theory. In short, the residents of Liqian may be descendants of Caucasians; that is, people from the Caucasus. Judging by the photos I've seen, these individuals could not possibly have descended from soldiers born near the Mediterranean.

Moreover, the presence of Roman soldiers in China would certainly have warranted some mention in the Chinese historical sources, given that the Chinese documented most of their attempted and actual interactions with the people of Daqin (Great Qin, otherwise Rome). If any of you are interested in studying this further, Silk Road Seattle hosts some of the relevant historical texts.

[donions]

I would not say that on the IB forums, donions. You might... not... survive... the sheer amount of historical research thrown at you.

no amount of historical research could convince me that Valens wasnt a fool when it came to leading men in battle.

That's just in reference to the Battle of Adrianople tho, im no history expert and considering a Roman army defeated the Huns in a pitched battle in the 4th century, maybe they were stronger then i give them credit for.

[Lycaner]

From a chinese source i readed , it seem during at the Late Han Dynasty and early three kingdoms era , a chinese General named Ma Chao (176 – 222) lead an army who petty similar with Roman Legions , because according to some Chinese historical books, Ma Chao's troops used big and heavy shields rarely used by Chinese soldiers and stood in close formation while fighting; moreover, unlike Chinese troops who shot arrows, they cast javelins before charging. That mean Ma Chao is somehow learning or copying from the Roman descendant which they's father or grandfather (Roman legionnaries) that have survived battle of carrhae and settled on the steppes of western China (Now Chinese Xing Jiang province); later in 36 B.C .
Also in ancient Chinese historical books, in which it is not infrequently mentioned that some troops from western China are equipped with Roman-styled armors and used Roman-styled fighting formation, namely, the fish-scale formation which is believed to be the "tortoise" phalanx formation perfected by legionnaries.

[ProvostGuard]

From a chinese source i readed , it seem during at the Late Han Dynasty and early three kingdoms era , a chinese General named Ma Chao (176 – 222) lead an army who petty similar with Roman Legions , because according to some Chinese historical books, Ma Chao's troops used big and heavy shields rarely used by Chinese soldiers and stood in close formation while fighting; moreover, unlike Chinese troops who shot arrows, they cast javelins before charging. That mean Ma Chao is somehow learning or copying from the Roman descendant which they's father or grandfather (Roman legionnaries) that have survived battle of carrhae and settled on the steppes of western China (Now Chinese Xing Jiang province); later in 36 B.C .
Also in ancient Chinese historical books, in which it is not infrequently mentioned that some troops from western China are equipped with Roman-styled armors and used Roman-styled fighting formation, namely, the fish-scale formation which is believed to be the "tortoise" phalanx formation perfected by legionnaries.

Care to offer any sources?

In any case, it's a little demeaning to insist that the Chinese were incapable of developing new battle tactics on their own and that they had to borrow from the Romans. I suggest you search up Dubs' article (I think it's titled "A Roman City in China") and find some of the academic rebuttals.

[Spartan198]

Care to offer any sources?

In any case, it's a little demeaning to insist that the Chinese were incapable of developing new battle tactics on their own and that they had to borrow from the Romans. I suggest you search up Dubs' article (I think it's titled "A Roman City in China") and find some of the academic rebuttals.

Where did he suggest the Chinese were incapable of developing new tactics on their own? I didn't see it. Moreover, how is borrowing a successful tactic from another source demeaning? If it works, why not use it? The Romans themselves would certainly agree with that.

[ProvostGuard]

Where did he suggest the Chinese were incapable of developing new tactics on their own? I didn't see it. Moreover, how is borrowing a successful tactic from another source demeaning? If it works, why not use it? The Romans themselves would certainly agree with that.

First off, I don't even know what sources he's referring to. The man that originally came up with the theory, Homer Dubs, made his argument based on a single source that mentioned a "fish-scale formation" (which he equated to the testudo) used in the defense of a Central Asian town. Dubs also believed that the palisade surrounding the town revealed Roman handiwork. As it turns out, the original meaning of 'yu-lin-chen," which Dubs renders as the "fish-scale formation," is far more ambiguous. Moreover, defenses similar to those described in the original Chinese source were, in fact, a common (and native) feature of that region. Dubs and other scholars mistakenly believed that the peoples of Central Asia were unable to develop fortifications on their own. (source)

That said, the post insinuated that similarities with the Romans in terms of equipment and tactics must mean that the Chinese adopted it from the Romans. This doesn't leave room for the possibility that anyone other than the Romans could have also locked their shields together to defend against missiles (again, 'fish-scale formation = testudo' is very much in doubt). Would it be fair for me to insist that the Greeks adopted the gastraphetes from the Chinese crossbow?

[dvk901]

From a chinese source i readed , it seem during at the Late Han Dynasty and early three kingdoms era , a chinese General named Ma Chao (176 – 222) lead an army who petty similar with Roman Legions , because according to some Chinese historical books, Ma Chao's troops used big and heavy shields rarely used by Chinese soldiers and stood in close formation while fighting; moreover, unlike Chinese troops who shot arrows, they cast javelins before charging. That mean Ma Chao is somehow learning or copying from the Roman descendant which they's father or grandfather (Roman legionnaries) that have survived battle of carrhae and settled on the steppes of western China (Now Chinese Xing Jiang province); later in 36 B.C .
Also in ancient Chinese historical books, in which it is not infrequently mentioned that some troops from western China are equipped with Roman-styled armors and used Roman-styled fighting formation, namely, the fish-scale formation which is believed to be the "tortoise" phalanx formation perfected by legionnaries.

This was, in fact, what we came across in our research about the Legions during RS2's developement....which is why I was always joking about having a map to China to make them pay! After Carrae, the captured Roman soldiers were sold into slavery, and ultimately ended up somewhere in China. I had read somewhere that there was archaeological evidence to back this up, but I forgot where it is, so cannot say for sure.

[Lycaner]

This was, in fact, what we came across in our research about the Legions during RS2's developement....which is why I was always joking about having a map to China to make them pay! After Carrae, the captured Roman soldiers were sold into slavery, and ultimately ended up somewhere in China. I had read somewhere that there was archaeological evidence to back this up, but I forgot where it is, so cannot say for sure.

Well , you can surely map to china if only the some part of game is not HARDCODED....
(P.S ahhh~i hate the word "HARDCODED")