iran vs UN (america?)

[Carach]

so the shouting across the street has begun...i give it 2 months at the most before tomahawks start springing up and speeding over iran.

heres an amusing cartoon:


Discuss

[imb39]

It's a worrying development and the sabre rattling is reaching a desperate crescendo.

[Dirty Harry]

I cant wait for some great video clips when the B2 squadrons come in and waste that shabby excuse for a country.

[Nationalist_Cause]

I cant wait for some great video clips when the B2 squadrons come in and waste that shabby excuse for a country.

There was a time when American foreign policy was above moronic beliefs of invincibility. There was a time when American foreign policy was prudent, restrained, cautious, and benign. Those days are long over. The Republic is gone, replaced by the American Empire. Your words reflect the rashness, the folly, the absurdities of our current foreign policy.

[mike^_^]

There was a time when American foreign policy was above moronic beliefs of invincibility. There was a time when American foreign policy was prudent, restrained, cautious, and benign. Those days are long over. The Republic is gone, replaced by the American Empire. Your words reflect the rashness, the folly, the absurdities of our current foreign policy.

quoted for truth.

[internationalist]

I cant wait for some great video clips when the B2 squadrons come in and waste that shabby excuse for a country.

Aren't you Canadian? Sarcasm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sher Khan]

Wiping out a country and then building a new nation in its place worked well with Germany and Japan. The difference between those two nations and Iran is simple. To wipe out Nazis, it was easy, defeat the Nazi party. To wipe out imperialistic Japanese generals, you had to dismantle their military command. Wipe out Iran, and Wahabbist/Salafiist fundamentalism will seep back in from elsewhere in the Middle East and you'll be back to square one soon enough. You'll have to be insanely careful with bringing in indoctrination and education to free radicalism and warhawkish attitudes from Iran - and U.S. foreign policy is far, FAR, from delicate. If we can't keep a good relationship with the Turks, we can hardly hope to handle the fight against extremism ideologues.

Of course, this only applies to the easy, warhawkish path. The better way that leaves less bad taste in everyone's mouths is helping free speech, (secular) education, religious freedom and discussions, and free discourse spread in the nation through the people themselves. Everyone in Iran hated the Shah, and he was helped to his station by outside forces. Few people were worried about the Ayatollah's Islamic Revolution since they themselves helped bring it about.

[Carach]

Wiping out a country and then building a new nation in its place worked well with Germany and Japan. The difference between those two nations and Iran is simple. To wipe out Nazis, it was easy, defeat the Nazi party. To wipe out imperialistic Japanese generals, you had to dismantle their military command. Wipe out Iran, and Wahabbist/Salafiist fundamentalism will seep back in from elsewhere in the Middle East and you'll be back to square one soon enough. You'll have to be insanely careful with bringing in indoctrination and education to free radicalism and warhawkish attitudes from Iran - and U.S. foreign policy is far, FAR, from delicate. If we can't keep a good relationship with the Turks, we can hardly hope to handle the fight against extremism ideologues.

Of course, this only applies to the easy, warhawkish path. The better way that leaves less bad taste in everyone's mouths is helping free speech, (secular) education, religious freedom and discussions, and free discourse spread in the nation through the people themselves. Everyone in Iran hated the Shah, and he was helped to his station by outside forces. Few people were worried about the Ayatollah's Islamic Revolution since they themselves helped bring it about.

uhh...to defeat the germans we had to re-take europe, go right into berlin and completely crush the german army.
To defeat the japanese we even had to go so far to drop 2 atomic bombs on them.

wasnt so easy are your saying, problem is, germany and japan realised defea was defeat and allowed america and co. to rebuild their countries..turned out good in the end, But the middle east dont allow this because they see the west as evil christian infidels carrying out a 21st century crusade.

america have tried internal coup's, they have tried being nice about things, but at the end of the day, you cant do anything diplomatic with a nation/person who is se on aquiring something bad for the world. (The same was true of hitler, appeasement allowed him to take chunks out of everything, then it was too late to stop him..and spred across the world as a result)
blowing the **** out of iran's facilities is the best option now, and is the option america happen to do best.

[IamthePope]

blowing the **** out of iran's facilities is the best option now, and is the option america happen to do best.

HOORAH... but it might be more difficult than it seems seeing as how we dont really know where all of their facilities are and some of them are deep underground. I just hope we've perfected those mini-nuke bunker-busters by now... or we could just get isreal to do it. Iran hates them anyways.

[Sher Khan]

You're missing the point.

I'm talking about idealogue followers. Fighting ideology. It was easier dealing with Nazism and Japanese nationalism because it was so centralized and compact. Fervent Nazism and Imperialistic Japanese Nationalism were, more or less, limited to Germany and Japan respectively (at least, those that would present problems for stamping out the regimes and policies).

This is not the case with Iran, where the Sauds in Arabia will simply fund their crazy clerics to go out and bring back fanaticism after we bomb them to hell and back. Shi'a radicals from Iraq and elsewhere will start pouring in as well, along with other radicals from Pakistan and Syria who smell opportunity (and they're very good at that by now).

[Carach]

You're missing the point.

I'm talking about idealogue followers. Fighting ideology. It was easier dealing with Nazism and Japanese nationalism because it was so centralized and compact. Fervent Nazism and Imperialistic Japanese Nationalism were, more or less, limited to Germany and Japan respectively (at least, those that would present problems for stamping out the regimes and policies).

This is not the case with Iran, where the Sauds in Arabia will simply fund their crazy clerics to go out and bring back fanaticism after we bomb them to hell and back. Shi'a radicals from Iraq and elsewhere will start pouring in as well, along with other radicals from Pakistan and Syria who smell opportunity (and they're very good at that by now).

Problem is islam. It is an evil religion. Kudos to it though for holding a whole region together though, in its own warped little way..the governments there use it as they know most would die for the religion (not the case i neurope for christianity these days), propaganda combined with a devotion to the religion..what a combination.

to be totally honest, while I don't agree with there retoric I can understand the Iranian's point of view:

1. The only superpower in the world has publically and consistantly said they hate them and want to destory them
2. Their next door neighbour has been invaded and destroyed on a much flimsier pretex than nuclear weapons
3. They know/believe the real reason for US invasion of Iraq was to get the oil
4. They are sitting on the 2nd largest oil & gas deposits in the Middle East
5. They therefore fear the superpower is coming for them next and whatever they do a prestext will be found to justify an invasion
6. they look around the world and what do they see, their neighbours all went nuclear against strong opposition and it is now accepted
7. and the only truly rogue state in the world (North Korea) is untouchable, all because it has nuclear capability

believe me, if I was leading Iran, I'd be building nukes as fast as I possibly could

-The only superpower in the world has publically said iran is on dodgey ground because of irans links to terrorism and are suspected of tryng to develop nuclear weapons, they continue to have the annihilation of israel on their policy list. If they were a nice country there wouldnt be a problem.
-
-You dont know this, they dont know this, only the politicians i nthe white house and downing street know what the reasons were (OMG forbid that the politicians were actually telling the truth for their reasons?!!?! no..its all conspiracy theories .. )
-If they were a nice country there wouldnt be a problem.
-Iran have done so many bad things that we could have reasons to invade any time we wanted. They have supplied terrorists, they are quite obviously trying to gain nuclear weapons...etc etc
-Which neighbours went nuclear and is now accepted? Syria? No. Lebanon? No. Jordan? No. Iraq? No, they were stopped. Saudi Arabia? No. Israel? only got nuclear weapons (if its actually true) to stop the repeated attacks upon them by the whole middle east.
-North korea doesnt need to be hit, the regime is collapsing, time destroys them, not invasion. Also, 'Rogue' is important word there, they are a 'bad' country, as are iran...

If i was leading iran, id drop my connections to terrorism, and stop trying to produce nukes under cover of 'civilian power' when i am the second largest oil producer in the middle east.

[Tacticalwithdrawal]

to be totally honest, while I don't agree with there retoric I can understand the Iranian's point of view:

1. The only superpower in the world has publically and consistantly said they hate them and want to destory them
2. Their next door neighbour has been invaded and destroyed on a much flimsier pretex than nuclear weapons
3. They know/believe the real reason for US invasion of Iraq was to get the oil
4. They are sitting on the 2nd largest oil & gas deposits in the Middle East
5. They therefore fear the superpower is coming for them next and whatever they do a prestext will be found to justify an invasion
6. they look around the world and what do they see, their neighbours all went nuclear against strong opposition and it is now accepted
7. and the only truly rogue state in the world (North Korea) is untouchable, all because it has nuclear capability

believe me, if I was leading Iran, I'd be building nukes as fast as I possibly could

[KaerMorhen]

I don't think Islam itself is a problem to deal with, far more dangerous are oportunistic muslim hate preachers who constanly uses Islam as a platform for their lust of power and welth for themselfs. So I don't think wiping out Iran is the right way because it will causes more problems in future. Sometimes one simply dagger is far more effective than thousands of swords...and much cheaper and chance for hurting, killing innocent civilians in decreased to minimum.

[Carach]

they use islam as a platform because they can. islam is outdated, it needs updating or needs destroying, so many loop holes and easy methods of exploitation, and not enough is being done by the 'leaders' of the religion to stop it.
Islam is too aggresive and completely intolerant of others.

[Ahlerich]

they use islam as a platform because they can. islam is outdated, it needs updating or needs destroying, so many loop holes and easy methods of exploitation, and not enough is being done by the 'leaders' of the religion to stop it.
Islam is too aggresive and completely intolerant of others.

islam only has to be "updated" in some regions, not even updated more like tought, interpreted different.

anyways even if it would need an update this update can only come from within the muslim culture, not forced.

it was even a pain for the church to destroy small religious groups like hussites and katharer..i made the nams up from the german words (katharer,hussiten) i hope u understand which i mean. or even protestans or the katholic church or christianity in the beginning..there where allways attempts to whipe them out and it never worked...trying that would be foolish

[KaerMorhen]

outdated is good description and sometimes I think it is because the societies where Islam is dominating religion are outdated too and I don't think because they are mostly third world.

[Carach]

outdated is good description and sometimes I think it is because the societies where Islam is dominating religion are outdated too and I don't think because they are mostly third world.

indeed..but islam encourages them to be backward

[Freddie]

Question: Would you trust that crack pot Iranian leader with Nuclear capabilites?

[Nationalist_Cause]

Question: Would you trust that crack pot Iranian leader with Nuclear capabilites?

You know, fifty years ago we thought the Soviets might be insane enough to launch a nuclear weapon. We certainly thought the Chinese were unhinged and feared they might use them as well. Hell, I'm still hearing about how Kim Jong-Il is a maniac and will use his weapons.

None of them have. The point is that all of these leaders aren't crazy, bloodthirsty, maniacs who want to destroy the world, though some leaders have been particularly brutal. The Iranians aren't irrational about what they are doing. In fact, they are perfectly rational, as all people are in their own way. You should be careful not to simply call him a crackpot. Its dismissive and keeps you from really thinking about the real life situation we are in.

[Last Roman]

You know, fifty years ago we thought the Soviets might be insane enough to launch a nuclear weapon. We certainly thought the Chinese were unhinged and feared they might use them as well. Hell, I'm still hearing about how Kim Jong-Il is a maniac and will use his weapons.

None of them have. The point is that all of these leaders aren't crazy, bloodthirsty, maniacs who want to destroy the world, though some leaders have been particularly brutal. The Iranians aren't irrational about what they are doing. In fact, they are perfectly rational, as all people are in their own way. You should be careful not to simply call him a crackpot. Its dismissive and keeps you from really thinking about the real life situation we are in.

what he said.

Also, for all the tough talk the Iranian president has spewed out, even if they did get nukes, there is no way they could pressure the west. Both us and them know full well if they pointed a nuke at Israel's or in the west's direction, we would be on them like white on rice. They aren't stupid. And this time, I don't think that just the US involved but rather a true western coalition.