Page 1 of 9 123456789 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 242

Thread: Africa and Colonialism

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Africa and Colonialism

    I have heard some interesting views on colonialism and its supposed benefits. We apparently brought technology and democracy, the reason it did not work is often placed at the African peoples feet and their inability to govern themselves.

    Well I'm setting myself up on a pedestal here and am setting out to prove the opposite.

    We created borders where previously non existed, imflamed and exasperate any tensions that were there and created problems through racial cataloging.

    When we left it was because of insurgencies and revolutionaries ie. unstable countries or when we left under normal circumstances we did so without leaving an entrenched stable government.

    The arguement that Africans cannot govern themselves is wrong. Democracy cannot be forced upon people, but now that they are free from interference Africa is growing in stability. There are thirteen relatively stable democracies with functioning economies and infrastructure. The African Union is not yet effective in its infancy but as the AUO proved these organisations do work and this one will achieve its aims and grow into a true union that outshines its predecessor.

    All countries in their infancy have turbulent periods, Europe has had its share as have the Americas. Africa is doing remarkably well to make any progress considering the harsh landscape the recent political interference trade deals, droughts and AID epidemics.


    Colonialism had a destabilizing effect on what had been a number of ethnic groups that is still being felt in African politics. Prior to European influence, national borders were not much of a concern, with Africans generally following the practice of other areas of the world, such as the Arabian peninsula, where a group's territory was congruent with its military or trade influence. The European insistence of drawing borders around territories to isolate them from those of other colonial powers often had the effect of separating otherwise contiguous political groups, or forcing traditional enemies to live side by side with no buffer between them. For example, the Congo River, although it appears to be a natural geographic boundary, had groups that otherwise shared a language, culture or other similarity who resided on both sides. The division of the land between Belgium and France along the river isolated these groups from each other. Those who lived in Saharan or Sub-Saharan Africa and traded across the continent for centuries often found themselves crossing "borders" that existed only on European maps.

    In nations that had substantial European populations, for example Rhodesia and South Africa, systems of second-class citizenship were often set up in order to give Europeans political power far in excess of their numbers. However, the lines were not often drawn strictly across racial lines. In Liberia, the citizens who were descendants of American slaves managed to have a political system for over 100 years that gave ex-slaves and natives to the area roughly equal legislative power despite the fact the ex-slaves were outnumbered ten to one in the general population. The inspiration for this system was the United States Senate, which had balanced the power of free and slave states despite the much larger population of the former.

    Europeans often changed the balance of power, created ethnic divides where they did not previously exist, and introduced a cultural dichotomy detrimental to the native inhabitants in the areas they controlled. For example, in what is now Rwanda and Burundi, two ethnic groups Hutus and Tutsis had merged into one culture by the time Belgian colonists had taken control of the region in the 19th century. No longer divided by ethnicity as intermingling, inter-marriage, and merging of cultural practices over the centuries had long since erased visible signs of a culture divide, the Belgians instituted a policy of racial categorization, upon taking control of the region, as racial based categorization and philosophies was a fixture of the European culture of that time. The term Hutu originally referred to the agricultural-based Bantu speaking tribes that moved into present day Rwandan and Burundi from the West, and the term Tutsi referred to North Eastern cattle-based tribes that migrated into the region later. The terms to the indigenous peoples eventually came to describe a person's economic class. Those individuals who owned roughly 10 or more cattle were considered Tutsi, and those with fewer were considered Hutu, regardless of ancestral history. This was not a strict line but a general rule of thumb, and one could move from Hutu to Tutsi and vice versa.

    The Belgians introduced a racialised system. Those individuals who had characteristics the Europeans admired - fairer skin, ample height, narrow noses, etc. - were given power amongst the colonized peoples. The Belgians determined these features were more ideally Hamitic, Hamitic in turn being more ideally European and belonged to those people closest to Tutsi in ancestry. They instituted a policy of issuing identity cards based on this philosophy. Those closest to this ideal were proclaimed Tutsi and those not were proclaimed Hutu.

    [edit]
    Post-colonial Africa
    Since independence, African states have frequently been hampered by instability, corruption, violence, and authoritarianism. The vast majority of African nations are republics that operate under some form of the presidential system of rule. Few nations in Africa have been able to sustain democratic governments, instead cycling through a series of brutal coups and military dictatorships.

    A number of Africa's post-colonial political leaders were poorly educated and ignorant on matters of governance; great instability, however, was mainly the result of marginalization of other ethnic groups and graft under these leaders.

    As well, many used the positions of power to ignite ethnic conflicts that had been exacerbated, or even created, under colonial rule. In many countries, the military was perceived as being the only group that could effectively maintain order and ruled most nations in Africa during the 70s and early 80s.

    During the period from the early 1960s to the late 1980s Africa had over 70 coups and 13 presidential assassinations.

    Cold War conflicts between the United States and the Soviet Union also played a role in the instability. When a country became independent for the first time, it was often expected to align with one of the two superpowers. Many countries in Northern Africa received Soviet military aid, while many in Central and Southern Africa were supported by the United States and/or France. The 1970s saw an escalation as newly independent Angola and Mozambique aligned themselves with the Soviet Union and the West and South Africa sought to contain Soviet influence.

    Border and territorial disputes have also been common, with the European-imposed borders of many nations being widely contested through armed conflicts.

    Failed government policies and political corruption have also resulted in many widespread famines, and significant portions of Africa remain with distribution systems unable to disseminate enough food or water for the population to survive. The spread of disease is also rampant, especially the spread of the Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV) and the associated Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (AIDS), which has become a deadly epidemic on the continent.

    Despite numerous hardships, there have been some signs the continent has hope for the future. Democratic governments seem to be spreading, though are not yet the majority (National Geographic claims 13 African nations can be considered truly democratic). As well, many nations have at least nominally recognized basic human rights for all citizens, though in practice these are not always recognized, and have created reasonably independent judiciaries.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa#Colonial_Africa

    (note I will not debate with anyone who accuses me of liberal whining or apologism be objective or don't bother, feel free to bring india into the affair if you wish)

    Peter

  2. #2

    Default

    Colonies in Africa were set up at first for trade, then the slave trade and then back to trade again. I am not an expert on this but I believe the problem was the slave trade. We set Africans against each other for profit. The Africans captured each other to sell to European tarders who would then take them to the Carribean and Americas. Those who did not capture were captured themselves. This set neighbours against each other.

    Most problems with government are caused by corrupt dictators with all the power eg. Robert Mugabe. He forced white farmers out and gave all the land to his cronies, but they can not farm as well as the white farmers did (having hardly any experience in running a farm) and now the country is starving.
    South Africa is now a beacon in Africa. From been a racist nation it has risen out of the ashes and become a democracy, with whites and blacks living side by side.

    Colonialism was one of the problems in Africa, but can't really be blamed for all the problems now. What would Africa be with out colonialism, a lot worse than it is. As I have said before many former colonies are recieving the benefits now.

    I think that the only way Africa can be truly saved is by eradicating the corrupt dictators and politicians and 'helping them to help themselves'. Giving out hand-outs makes them become reliant on them, giving them the tecnology to grow their own crops and help themselves will prove better in the long run.
    Last edited by Perikles; March 08, 2006 at 01:03 PM.

  3. #3
    Yorkshireman's Avatar Praefectus
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Leeds, Yorkshire, England
    Posts
    6,232

    Default

    Britains retreat from Empire was pretty civilised we were'nt thrown out of anywhere by revolution or insurrection and unlike the French and Belgiums did'nt fight bitter wars to hang on at all costs.

    Britains legacy in most of the colonies was to leave a good government system, civil service and courts and justice, so much so that there still used to day, India being the prime example.

    The fact that some African countries returned to pre-colonial tribal strife reflects more on African mentality and tribal culture than it does on the British, who at least garunteed peace and security in the lands they ruled.

  4. #4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkshireman
    Britains retreat from Empire was pretty civilised we were'nt thrown out of anywhere by revolution or insurrection and unlike the French and Belgiums did'nt fight bitter wars to hang on at all costs.

    Britains legacy in most of the colonies was to leave a good government system, civil service and courts and justice, so much so that there still used to day, India being the prime example.

    The fact that some African countries returned to pre-colonial tribal strife reflects more on African mentality and tribal culture than it does on the British, who at least garunteed peace and security in the lands they ruled.
    Yes I agree. To say that colonialism (especially the British) only brought bad news and did not improve Africa in any way is nonsense. Many empires brought with them education, healthcare, law and order, technology and democracy.
    We gave countries their independance, unlike others who fought to the bitter end creating more problems for their former colonies.

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Perikles
    Yes I agree. To say that colonialism (especially the British) only brought bad news and did not improve Africa in any way is nonsense. Many empires brought with them education, healthcare, law and order, technology and democracy.
    We gave countries their independance, unlike others who fought to the bitter end creating more problems for their former colonies.
    In any situation, it is possible to find one aspect that can be seen as positive. However, one must still look at the overarching situation to determine whether it was primarily positive or negative. The European colonization of Africa was, at least as I see it, an overwhelmingly negative situation. The colonizing act was incredibly brutal in itself. The subjugation of tribes, theft of land, and pillaging of natural resources were all done at the point of a gun. The Belgian colonies were so brutally run that even the British were scandalized (see "Heart of Darkness").

    The social upheaval that European colonization caused has also had far-reaching consequences. Malaria, for instance kills millions of African children every year, but this disease was much less of a problem before European colonization. The reason is that most tribes, through oral history, understood that malaria was a problem around standing water, and was compounded if people lived in large groups. Thus, the tribes were composed of smaller groups, who tended to avoid large lakes or other bodies of standing water. During colonization, though, this small tribal system was destroyed, and people were concentrated in cities that were near water (this is especially true in places with heavy mining activity, like the Kimberly diamond mines). The result was a huge malaria epidemic that continues to cripple African economies and halt development.

    Thus, European colonists did bring some beneficial technologies and ideas with them, but the colonialist endeavor was not altruistic: it was primarily opportunistic. Thus, any benefits that did result were mainly incidental; overall the colonial experience was one of misery and long-lasting instability for Africa.
    Last edited by Perikles; April 21, 2007 at 04:50 AM.

  6. #6
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkshireman
    Britains retreat from Empire was pretty civilised we were'nt thrown out of anywhere by revolution or insurrection and unlike the French and Belgiums did'nt fight bitter wars to hang on at all costs.

    Britains legacy in most of the colonies was to leave a good government system, civil service and courts and justice, so much so that there still used to day, India being the prime example.

    The fact that some African countries returned to pre-colonial tribal strife reflects more on African mentality and tribal culture than it does on the British, who at least garunteed peace and security in the lands they ruled.
    Yes but african tribal mentality and culture was exagerated by the colonial powers by drawing borders and racial cataloging with no idea what kind of tensions these actions created. These countries are essentially artificial incarnations unlike most European countries that evolved that way.

    So when we left we left it vastly changed hence all the disruption. Or was the unrest in Germany down to German tribal mentality? Or France two hundred years before that? America's civil war? Those pesky texan tribes.

    As to security and peace where we ruled, we allowed private companies to raise armies to protect their interests for example the EITC who took up drug dealing which triggered the two opium wars. Not a glowing reference for us.

    When we left India we were the catalyst for the creation of pakistan something which cost hundreds of thousands of lives.

    We only need to look at apartheid in South Africa to know that we were not generous rulers.

    Peter

  7. #7

    Default

    I'm quite sick of people saying that Britain gave independence. You say Britain, you mean the government. Ever heard of William Wilberforce? Soon, people will begin saying that the Americans gave the Afro-Americans and Martin Luther King and Malcolm X will be forgotten.

  8. #8

    Default

    Our divisional lines were problematic. But if you look at dark age Britain after the Western Roman Empire left, the fact is that tribal tensions sent us into division as well. The British Empire actally tried to stop Apartheid. Afrikans were the main culprit. When the empire granted freedom to African slaves, the Afrikans went and started the Boer war.
    "The Moving Finger Writes and having writ moves on nor all thy piety nor wit can lure it back to cancel even half a line nor all thy tears wash out a single word" (Omar Khayyam).

    I think that probably my greatest achievement was introducing Ozymandias to these boards.

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus-Popat
    I'm quite sick of people saying that Britain gave independence. You say Britain, you mean the government.
    What was the point in that comment? I would get tired of writing 'The Government of Great Britain did this and the Government of Great Britain did that.' When I say 'Britain' I do mean the government, the government that represents Brtiain.


    Ever heard of William Wilberforce? Soon, people will begin saying that the Americans gave the Afro-Americans and Martin Luther King and Malcolm X will be forgotten.
    William Wilberforce, helped abolish the slave trade, by helping make it illegal for British traders to carry them on ships and making it illegal to own slaves.
    I'm not sure if the last sentance makes sense, correct me if I am wrong.

  10. #10
    Yorkshireman's Avatar Praefectus
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Leeds, Yorkshire, England
    Posts
    6,232

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus-Popat
    I'm quite sick of people saying that Britain gave independence. You say Britain, you mean the government. Ever heard of William Wilberforce? Soon, people will begin saying that the Americans gave the Afro-Americans and Martin Luther King and Malcolm X will be forgotten.
    Garbled and confusing ?

    Sorry double post

  11. #11
    Yorkshireman's Avatar Praefectus
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Leeds, Yorkshire, England
    Posts
    6,232

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cowen70
    We only need to look at apartheid in South Africa to know that we were not generous rulers.Peter
    Apartheid was'nt created by the British, but by the Afrikaner/Boer led government of independant South Africa.

  12. #12
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkshireman
    Apartheid was'nt created by the British, but by the Afrikaner/Boer led government of independant South Africa.
    Colonial descendants were they not? Dutch and English settlers from the seventeenth and eighteenth century?

    EDIT I see no need to focus exclusively on the British by the way.

    Peter

  13. #13
    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Amsterdam
    Posts
    15,653

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Perikles
    Colonies in Africa were set up at first for trade, then the slave trade and then back to trade again. I am not an expert on this but I believe the problem was the slave trade. We set Africans against each other for profit. The Africans captured each other to sell to European tarders who would then take them to the Carribean and Americas. Those who did not capture were captured themselves. This set neighbours against each other.
    In my experience the history of slavery isn't an issue between West-African tribes at all.
    The Ashani for example were notorious for selling their neighbours as slaves to the Dutch and British but this plays no role in current tribal relationships (my fathers wife is actually from one of their neighbouring tribes).

    But we shouldn't treat the entire African continent as one entiry.
    There are huge differences between different parts of the continent.

    In any case it seems clear to me that trade was good for Africa, but colonialism wasn't.
    Slave trade was horrible for the people involved, but not so much for the people left behind.

    The worst case of colonialism was Belgian congo, and this is also the least stable region today.
    The Congo is very rich in natural resources, but the scars of colonialism still run very deep amongst the different tribes and this prevents them from profiting from those resources.
    I'm convinced that the Congo would have been a very prosperous region today, if they were never colonized.
    Last edited by Perikles; April 21, 2007 at 04:49 AM.



  14. #14
    Vicarius
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Trondheim, Norway
    Posts
    2,752

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cowen70
    (note I will not debate with anyone who accuses me of liberal whining or apologism be objective or don't bother, feel free to bring india into the affair if you wish)

    Peter
    Dont worry, Im agree with you, well mostly atleast. Colonization did bring tecknology and democracy, but tecnology could have been brought to africa by trade and friendy relations. Then Africa would learn about western civilisations and copy their government style, seeing how good it was.
    Well maybe it was wrong to say that it brought Democracy, but atleast it brought the idea of democracy and the tecnology was only used to benefit the Colonial powers, so you might say that they brought it and left with it.
    But I do agree that the Colonization ultimately did overall nothing good and screwed up the coutries which was colonized(some exceptions though), which is the essential part of your post, right?
    Last edited by Mathias; March 08, 2006 at 01:55 PM.
    Member of S.I.N.

  15. #15
    Carach's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    England
    Posts
    18,054

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cowen70
    We created borders where previously non existed, imflamed and exasperate any tensions that were there and created problems through racial cataloging.

    When we left it was because of insurgencies and revolutionaries ie. unstable countries or when we left under normal circumstances we did so without leaving an entrenched stable government.
    No.

    1: Giving independance and creating countries never goes through without problems, people need to stop thinking everything should go exactly as according to plan and leaving no 'margin'. Many of the countries Britain gave independance to have sorted their racial and religious problems out (some faster than others), Again, you cant presume they will all do this without a hitch.
    2: We didnt leave just because of insurgencies in some areas, we left because the age of empires was overbasically, Britain was exhausted from 2 huge and cripplingwars that had occured within 20 years of each other, america also pressured us to get rid of our empire (infact pretty much forcing us, and as a result leaving the massive power vacuum that created the cold war - thats american 'shoot first ask questions later' attitude for you)
    3: Most of these people wanted independance, we gave them that, if they decided to kill each other over it thats not our problem really. America again also presurised us to get rid of the empire ASAP.

    there was no social advancment or technological advancment of an kind in africa until europeans arrived - a lot of the issues that have madeafrica worse over the years has been due to natural occurances aswell, europeans souldnt be blamed for everything bad going on in the world.

  16. #16
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Carach
    No.

    1: Giving independance and creating countries never goes through without problems, people need to stop thinking everything should go exactly as according to plan and leaving no 'margin'. Many of the countries Britain gave independance to have sorted their racial and religious problems out (some faster than others), Again, you cant presume they will all do this without a hitch.
    Not just problems genocide on a mass scale, holocausts. We should never have created them, they didn't have the racial and religous problems before we came along did you not read my source?

    Glad to see you can shrug of hundreds of thousands of dead as just a hitch.

    2: We didnt leave just because of insurgencies in some areas, we left because the age of empires was overbasically, Britain was exhausted from 2 huge and cripplingwars that had occured within 20 years of each other, america also pressured us to get rid of our empire (infact pretty much forcing us, and as a result leaving the massive power vacuum that created the cold war - thats american 'shoot first ask questions later' attitude for you)
    Disassembling the empire caused the cold war? That is interesting.

    3: Most of these people wanted independance, we gave them that, if they decided to kill each other over it thats not our problem really. America again also presurised us to get rid of the empire ASAP.
    Again the reasons for the increased tensions and their causes are listed in the sources. The wars would not have happened IMO if colonisation had not happened.

    there was no social advancment or technological advancment of an kind in africa until europeans arrived - a lot of the issues that have madeafrica worse over the years has been due to natural occurances aswell, europeans souldnt be blamed for everything bad going on in the world.
    Social advancement? You mean they hadn't already instituted apartheid? Those barbarians!

    Peter

  17. #17
    Ahlerich's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Germany, Freiburg
    Posts
    8,270

    Default

    the borders drawn by europeans without considering ethnic and tribal groups causes a lot of problems..still. sure europes fault
    but what can you do about it now?
    giving money instead of infrastructure is also a fault of e.g. europe and other parts of the world who do itthis can, should and to a certain degree is changed.
    Last edited by Ahlerich; March 08, 2006 at 01:56 PM.

  18. #18

    Default

    Conditions in South Africa, then, have improved as vestiges of colonialism have been removed. The fact is, colonialism set up Africans as second class citizens on their ancestral land. It didn't matter if it was the Belgians, French, Boers, or British. This situation existed everywhere. And that is inherently unjust and wrong. Thus, colonialism is wrong.

  19. #19
    Carach's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    England
    Posts
    18,054

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fish
    Conditions in South Africa, then, have improved as vestiges of colonialism have been removed. The fact is, colonialism set up Africans as second class citizens on their ancestral land. It didn't matter if it was the Belgians, French, Boers, or British. This situation existed everywhere. And that is inherently unjust and wrong. Thus, colonialism is wrong.
    result would of been the same if the situatio nwas reversed.

  20. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Carach
    result would of been the same if the situatio nwas reversed.
    I'm not sure what you envision as the reverse of this situation. If you mean that, in a HIGHLY hypothetical situation, African tribes somehow colonized Europe, then they would have treated the Europeans as second class citizens, then I suppose you may be right. However, that situation is so far fetched that it's impossible to say what could happen (I suppose it would have necessitated an intervention by space aliens). But if that situation somehow came to pass, then that would be wrong too. Colonialism is wrong, it doesn't matter who's doing it.

Page 1 of 9 123456789 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •