Persian hoplites

[Quinn Inuit]

I know Persian hoplites are a popular unit in mods, but I can't find any evidence of them in our time period, and I don't believe any non-Greek heavy infantry were recruited in Mesopotamia or the Iranian Plateau at all during our time period. Can anyone find any evidence of any non-Greek heavy infantry from that area at any point 280-100 B.C.?

[Ramiro]

Carians Maybe? I think i recall reading herodotus saying their trirremes during the persian expedition had contingents of heavy infantry, very much like hoplites, but they were NOT greeks.

[Wien1938]

I think it's a question of Kardakes and how those are interpreted. Regardless, it doesn't matter very much here because the Kardakes ceased to exist once the Achaemenids fell.
So the short answer is, no.

[Quinn Inuit]

Carians Maybe? I think i recall reading herodotus saying their trirremes during the persian expedition had contingents of heavy infantry, very much like hoplites, but they were NOT greeks.

Please don't mention Carians. I may need to make this forum a Carian-free zone.

(j/k--the Carians work, but are from Anatolia. Any of them that could still afford the hoplon are classed with the Ionians for our purposes.)

I think it's a question of Kardakes and how those are interpreted. Regardless, it doesn't matter very much here because the Kardakes ceased to exist once the Achaemenids fell.
So the short answer is, no.

True, the Kardakes are a tough question. We're treating them as if at least some were hoplites, and giving Pontus access to a few as household heavy infantry prior to the Hellenization of the kingdom. (They'll be inferior to mercenary hoplites and smaller in number per unit, but cheaper and easier to acquire.) We can't find good info on the Pontic military prior to the Mithridatic Wars, so we're treating them as a Cappadocian satrapal version of a Late Achaemenid army for lack of any better ideas.

Yeah, I can't find any evidence of any non-Greek heavy infantry between the kardakes of Darius (which are only tenuously identified as heavy) and the Deylamite heavy infantry of the Sassanids, and there wasn't much of that and it wasn't from Mesopotamia.

[Sardaukar One]

Yeah, I can't find any evidence of any non-Greek heavy infantry between the kardakes of Darius (which are only tenuously identified as heavy) and the Deylamite heavy infantry of the Sassanids, and there wasn't much of that and it wasn't from Mesopotamia.

The Persians that were being trained in the Macedonian fashion under Alexander the Great.
Some fought at Gabiene and Paraitakene.
The Pantodapoi I believe they were called. Wien pointed this out in our 'debate'.

There were Lykian and Pamphylian heavy infantry in the phalanx of Antigonus at Paraitakene. And presumably Gabiene. It would seem they were armed as hoplites.
500 were left with Demetrius in 313 BC (Diod. XIX 69,1)
1,000 fought at Gaza (Diod. XIX 82.4).

Otherwise that seems to be it as far as I can tell.

[Wien1938]

The tomb evidence for Lykian foot suggests a light foot armed with javelins and round shields. This isn't a problem for calling them heavy foot if we use the theory about mercenary Iphikratean-style hoplites, better able to tackle rough terrain but still able to beat other heavy and light foot.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sar...hikrates1.html
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sar...hikrates2.html
Bear in mind that a hoplite simply means an armed man, so the word has a wider use than just the citizen hoplite style foot of the 5th Century.

Otherwise, Sandaukar rightly points to these two groups uses in the phalanx which implies a melee foot role.

[Quinn Inuit]

O.K., I forgot the pantadapoi, but I'm ruling them as ineligible since they stopped existing by our time and were raised and controlled entirely by Greeks.

Interesting point about the tombs, Wien.

I agree that their use in the phalanx does imply a melee role, but I'm uncomfortable giving Pamphylia of all places true heavy infantry. I'll see what I can do about getting them a better unit than a mere skirmisher, though.

[Sardaukar One]

O.K., I forgot the pantadapoi, but I'm ruling them as ineligible since they stopped existing by our time and were raised and controlled entirely by Greeks.

When Antigonus and Eumenes fought, the Pantadapoi for both sides seem to have been enlisted in the east.
Antigonus got his from Peithon, the satrap of Media and Eumenes simply took over the Pantadapoi that were serving in the armies of the satraps of the east that had mobilized to fight Peithon.

They clearly were no match for the Macedonian phalanx and seeing as they were Persians, you probably wouldn't find them west of Iraq in any real numbers.

I think Alexander used more Persian troops as he headed further east. Perhaps because it was easier to recruit them in the east?

I like the Persian pike unit. I'll be sorry to see it go.

[Quinn Inuit]

Well, there will be a pike unit to represent the ones raised by Corduene (appears to be a mixture of Hellenes and extremely Hellenized locals, and was raised by a Hellenized state). Besides those pantadopoi, which were probably a remnant of Alexander's army and used up well before our time period, I haven't seen any evidence of native heavy infantry in that region.

[Wien1938]

There is evidence for Seleucid orientalised infantry of phalangites wearing trousers or long sleeves which suggests Persians or at least Easterners. This would likely from the army colonies in the East but there is not much more evidence to my knowledge. Sandaukar or Carados might know more.
The evidence comes from a pair of terracotta plates found in Campania showing a series of soldiers in Macedonian and Asiatic dress, suggesting an Eastern Hellenistic army, probably the Seleucids.
This as with the Lykians is sourced from Duncan Head, Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars.

[Quinn Inuit]

That's interesting. Could it possibly have been Pontus? We know they did deploy both Greeks and retrained locals.

[Wien1938]

My guess is that the Pontic Hellenised troops would appear as orientalised soldiers (trousers etc). Apart the bit of evidence above, the rest is speculation at present (at least for me!).

[Sardaukar One]

My point is that as you go further east in the Seleucid empire, you find a lot less Greek/Macedonian settlers from which to recruit for the phalanx. Certainly in comparison to the western part of the Seleucid empire.
We know little to nothing of the military exploits of the Seleucids out in the east. But it must surely have varied somewhat in the types of nationalities in regards the west.

Indeed, it may have been a big waste of time to have a lot phalanx type troops out in the east considering the opposition they faced out in the east. But if phalanx troops were used, a lot of them would have had to have been Persians. Or whoever was available.

[Sardaukar One]

"Macedonians" came to denote, in Egypt especially, nothing more than a type of infantry, and the figures quoted above certainly lend colour to the suggestion of K.Grote that the period of transition began very shortly after Alexander's death.

From Griffith's "The Mercenaries of the Hellenistic World", pg 41.

Don't know how you incorporate this into the game though.

[Carados]

I don't know anything
Which is kind of the reason this thread exists in the first place, hahah.

[Wien1938]

My guess is that we can have an oriental "macedonian" infantry. Also don't forget that the Seleucids adopted the Persian Empire's method of calling up lots of local levies (usually archers, slingers, javelin types all lumped together) which looked very impressive until charged by close-combat troops!

[Quinn Inuit]

LOL. That's one way to put it.

I see your point about the term denoting a style, but I'm not sure a separate unit for the Seleucids is in order. Unlike the Ptollies, who raised both Machimoi and outsider (Hebrew, Cyrenaican, etc.) phalanxes, the Seleucids don't seem to have raised different units of locals vs. ethnic Greeks.

[Visarion]

search coins

[Quinn Inuit]

All I get is Glenn Beck and friends trying to sell me gold. Could you elaborate?

[Visarion]

All I get is Glenn Beck and friends trying to sell me gold. Could you elaborate?

Guess I just wanted to sound intelligent... coins show Greek elements not Greco-Persian ones...