California firefighters watch man drown because of "budget cuts"

[Count of Montesano]

This is truly a horrifying story out of California. A suicidal man wanders into San Francisco bay. Police and firefighters are called, but then wait around for an hour watching the guy struggle near the shore. Finally, he drowns and a passerby swims out to get the corpse.

Why on earth would emergency responders watch somebody slowly die? Supposedly budget cuts and fear of a lawsuit.

Here's the news article:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...onders_st.html

Police and firefighters stood on a California beach and watched as a suicidal man waded into the San Francisco Bay and drowned in the surf.

The body of Raymond Zack was finally pulled from the 54-degree water by a passerby as local fire officials blamed budget cuts for their inability to save the man.

"We are absolutely going to do an investigation," Alameda, Calif., Mayor Marie Gilmore promised after the Memorial Day tragedy.

"And we are planning to do it in as transparent a way as possible."

Police and firefighters were brought to Robert Crown Memorial State Beach by a 911 call, authorities said.

Fire officials said the department's water rescue program disappeared with its funding in 2009. And an overtime cutback prevented firefighters from logging sufficient training hours for water rescues.

"The incident was deeply regrettable," said Alameda Fire Chief Mike D'Orazi.

"But I can also see it from our firefighters' perspective. They're standing there wanting to do something, but they are handcuffed by policy."

The policy kept the untrained firefighters from entering the water even as Zack, 52, spent an hour in the bay before he wound up floating face down.

[(s)AINT]

What I am getting is:
1) Budget Cuts. No water rescue program
2) Overtime cutback prevented sufficient training
3) Policy kept untrained firefighters from entering the water.

Sad. Unacceptable.

He was suicidal so I dont see the problem, let him drown, if that what he wants. Though I wonder how they got that info from him.

I disagree. Rescue should attempt to save anyone and everyone. Just because he is suicidal does not mean we should let him kill himself. Hopefully he could of received some mental help.

[charles the hammer]

What I am getting is:



I disagree. Rescue should attempt to save anyone and everyone. Just because he is suicidal does not mean we should let him kill himself. Hopefully he could of received some mental help.

What about this argument their bodies their rights? Or does that only go for women?

[charles the hammer]

He was suicidal so I dont see the problem, let him drown, if that what he wants. Though I wonder how they got that info from him.

[Sir Winston Churchill]

You know in America it wouldn't be a big surprise if the guy sued the responders for saving his life when he didn't want it saved.

He may even have won.

It's a thing, but in the end it's not as if the emergency responders were heartless dicks as they're made out to be.

[Ancient Aliens]

You know in America it wouldn't be a big surprise if the guy sued the responders for saving his life when he didn't want it saved.

This is particularly prevalent in California. Frivolous lawsuits are the foundation of the laws that govern most taxpayer funded agencies here, sadly.

[(s)AINT]

What about this argument their bodies their rights? Or does that only go for women?

Yeah but they can't just let someone die in front of them. It is not like they did not know he was suicidal.

[charles the hammer]

Yeah but they can't just let someone die in front of them. It is not like they did not know he was suicidal.

Well we dont know that, I to wonder how they figured it out, unless he told someone, but this is off topic I shouldnt have started it.

[Hotspur]

Just to clarify, he was 150 yards offshore, the Coast Guard couldn't get a boat in and the chopper was on another rescue. The firefighters didn't have the gear or training to perform a land-to-sea rescue.

[Sir Winston Churchill]

And without proper training might I add, they could easily go out there only to be put into danger themselves. Better the one, apparently suicidal, man die than both him and a firefighter.

[mrmouth]

Just to clarify, he was 150 yards offshore, the Coast Guard couldn't get a boat in and the chopper was on another rescue. The firefighters didn't have the gear or training to perform a land-to-sea rescue.

That is far too logical.

And without proper training might I add, they could easily go out there only to be put into danger themselves. Better the one, apparently suicidal, man die than both him and a firefighter.

What is it with you people and your sound logic?

So... 75 people stood on shore and watched this guy kill himself over an hour.

You would have a lot of dead people had they plunged into 52F water attempting to swim 150 yards, rescue a grown man, and swim 150 yards back. Most wouldn't have even made it to him. Similar to taking a swim in cold tap water, except there are waves and currents. Especially in that bay.

And there are big ass sharks in those waters, so that.

[Sir Winston Churchill]

What is it with you people?

I'm a Libertarian and a Utilitarian. I believe people have the right to decide when to end their lives however they please, and I believe I'd rather have one man die than two, especially when the original one is suicidal. What's to say you wouldn't save him only to have him try again at some point?

[lordoftheT]

You would have a lot of dead people had they plunged into 52F water attempting to swim 150 yards, rescue a grown man, and swim 150 yards back. Most wouldn't have even made it to him. Similar to taking a swim in cold tap water, except there are waves and currents. Especially in that bay.

And there are big ass sharks in those waters, so that.

Nonsense! The aura of their heroism and their completely unrelated training would have protected them.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

A mental disorder is not a mental illness. In physical terms, it's like an injury while a illness is like a disease. Low self esteem is just being mentally unfit, anologous to being physically unfit.

[Count of Montesano]

A mental disorder is not a mental illness. In physical terms, it's like an injury while a illness is like a disease. Low self esteem is just being mentally unfit, anologous to being physically unfit.

Ireland, may I ask what your psychological expertise is to make that assertion?

At this point we don't know why this guy was suicidal. He may have been bi-polar or schizophrenic, in which case mental illness definitely played a role. Maybe he just robbed a bank and figured it was better to drown than go to prison. I just wanted to challenge the idea that suicide is a sane and rational choice.

This is getting off-topic btw. The real topic is why it's ok to severely jeopardize public safety to save a few dollars.

[Hotspur]

As a guess, because with the available Coast Guard assets it was deemed unnecessarily redundant.

[Sidmen]

So... 75 people stood on shore and watched this guy kill himself over an hour.

The Fire department was called.. for some reason; WAIT. Why the hell was the fire department even involved with this?

It may just be me, but I don't think the fire department should spend the money to train people to rescue people in the water, when their job is ... protecting people from fires.

The city was right for cutting the water saving program from the Fire Department's budget, it should have never been there in the first place.

[the_mango55]

While this is sad, the most important words in the story are:

untrained firefighters

The biggest problem is with the departments (police and fire) that can't even pay for some lifeguard training for this type of situation.

The city was right for cutting the water saving program from the Fire Department's budget, it should have never been there in the first place.

If they had a dedicated city lifeguard squad I'd agree with you.

But firefighters are in the business of saving people, and there should be people trained to deal with any situation. Obviously not every firefighter would have to qualify, but a few would be enough.

[(s)AINT]

The problem is the cities (especially in California) have such bad budget problems that public safety doesn't get its necessary funding. As a california resident I can say from experience that this is a big issue. This whole state has been in the whole for about 10 years.

[MathiasOfAthens]

It doesnt take an hour to drown though.

He was suicidal so I dont see the problem, let him drown, if that what he wants. Though I wonder how they got that info from him.

You seriously think that. Depression caused him to go suicidal and you dont treat depression by letting the depressed person kill himself/herself.