Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 151

Thread: The Kalam Cosmological Argument for the Existence of God

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    XIII's Avatar Centenarius
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Philippines
    Posts
    817

    Default The Kalam Cosmological Argument for the Existence of God

    I. The Kalam Cosmological Argument
    as formulated by William Lane Craig

    1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
    2. The universe began to exist.
    3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

    --
    In Defense of the Kalam

    “Why does the universe exist?”

    Have you ever asked yourselves this question? This is a question that has hounded the thoughts of man since time immemorial. Well, the typical atheistic answer has always been we just do and that the universe just exists, eternally and uncaused, in other words, a brute fact. But recent advances in the fields of mathematics and cosmology does much to cast doubt on this claim.


    --
    I.I. The universe began to exist

    I.I.I. Philosophical Confirmation of Premise 2.


    Actual Infinites and Reality

    The very first of these problems are problems to do with actual infinites existing in physical reality. Most mathematicians recognize that actual infinites are mere ideas in your mind that have no place in reality. Why? Well, when dealing with actual infinites, mathematically, you get self-contradictory answers. For example, what is infinity minus infinity? And an infinite series of temporal events just is such an actual infinite.

    In order to unpack this point, we must first distinguish between actual infinites and potential infinites. An actual infinite, indicated by the symbol aleph ℵ0, is an infinite that is complete. It is a number that is greater than the set of all natural numbers, {1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9...}. That is to say, all the elements of the infinite set is already there. A potential infinite is a number that always approaches the infinite but never actually gets there, represented by the symbol of a lying-down 8, the lemniscate, ∞. Say, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9... Such an infinite is really indefinite instead of infinite.

    A. Impossibility of an Actual Infinite

    1. An actually infinite number of things cannot exist.
    2. A beginning-less series of events in time entails an actually infinite number of things.
    3. Therefore, a beginning-less series of events in time cannot exist.

    Premise 1:

    Premise 1 draws it's strength from the logical contradictions that we would expect to see were actual infinites be possible in reality. Hilbert's Hotel, Craig's favorite illustration of the concept, will serve to illustrate this contradictions. And I quote:

    “As a warm-up, let’s first imagine a hotel with a finite number of rooms. Suppose, furthermore, that all the rooms are occupied. When a new guest arrives asking for a room, the proprietor apologizes, “Sorry, all the rooms are full,” and that’s the end of the story. But now let us imagine a hotel with an infinite number of rooms and suppose once more that all the rooms are occupied. There is not a single vacant room throughout the entire infinite hotel. Now suppose a new guest shows up, asking for a room. “But of course!” says the proprietor, and he immediately shifts the person in room #1 into room #2, the person in room #2 into room #3, the person in room #3 into room #4, and so on, out to infinity. As a result of these room changes, room #1 now becomes vacant and the new guest gratefully checks in. But remember, before he arrived, all the rooms were already occupied!”
    - William Lane Craig, Reasonable Faith, p118

    Now, does anyone really think that such a Hotel could exist in reality? Obviously not. Our rationality then behooves to reject such a possibility but in doing so, we reject the possibility of an eternal universe.

    Premise 2:

    Premise 2 is obvious in it's implications. If the universe has existed for infinite time it would be an example of just such an actual infinite which we know to be absurd. Craig's choice of words here is interesting. By choosing to define time as events rather than as moments, he preempts a possible objection to the argument, that is that moments are relative.

    Conlusion:

    The conclusion we then draw from the argument is that the universe is not eternal and thus had a beginning to it's existence.


    B. Impossibility of an Actual Infinite through Successive Addition

    1. The series of events in time is a collection formed by successive addition.
    2. A collection formed by successive addition cannot be actually infinite.
    3. Therefore, the series of events in time cannot be actually infinite.

    Premise (1) is fairly obvious. It states that a series of events in time, our temporal reality, is formed by successive addition of events. Say 1 second + 1 second + 1 second...

    It is premise (2) that forms the core of the argument. It states that such a collection so formed is really a potential infinite, that is indefinite, and would never actually form an actual infinite. For think about it: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10... will always be approaching infinity but would never actually get there since an actual infinite is a number that is greater than the set of all natural numbers.

    But since the series of events in time is a collection formed by successive addition, and a series so formed cannot be actually infinite, it follows logically that the series of events in time is not actually infinite.


    --
    I.I.II. Scientific Confirmation

    A. The Expansion of the Universe


    This purely philosophical conclusions are supported by recent advances in the field of cosmology. The discovery of the cosmological red shift and cosmic background radiation served to confirm the hypothesis formulated by Friedman and Lemaitre. Both scientists formulated independently of one another a theory that eliminates the need for what Einstein called a 'fudge factor' in his General Theory of Relativity. They did this by predicting the expansion of the universe.

    This prediction sparked what is called one, if not the single most, spectacular discovery in the history of science. As John Wheeler exclaims:

    “Of all the great predictions that science has made over the centuries was there ever one greater than this, to predict, and to predict correctly, and predict against all expectation a phenomenon so fantastic as the expansion of the universe?”
    - John A. Wheeler, “Beyond the Hole,” in Some Strangeness in the Proportion, 354.

    This prediction was confirmed by two scientific discoveries over the past century, the discovery of the cosmological red shift by Edwin Hubble and the discovery of the cosmic microwave background radiation.

    The expansion predicted by the Friedman-Lemaitre model thus predicts that as one goes back in time, the universe is compressed into a mathematical singularity prior to which nothing existed, not even time and space. The implication is that this singularity then forms a boundary in the finite past to space and time itself. PCW Davies comments:

    “If we extrapolate this prediction to its extreme, we reach a point when all distances in the universe have shrunk to zero. An initial cosmological singularity therefore forms a past temporal extremity to the universe. We cannot continue physical reasoning, or even the concept of spacetime, through such an extremity. For this reason most cosmologists think of the initial singularity as the beginning of the universe. On this view the big bang represents the creation event; the creation not only of all the matter and energy in the universe, but also of spacetime itself.”
    - P. C. W. Davies, “Spacetime Singularities in Cosmology,” in The Study of Time III, 78–79.

    This singularity then expanded to form the universe in the event known as the Big Bang. The standard Big Bang model then, as formulated by Friedman and Lemaitre, predicts a universe that is not eternal in the past but began to exist a finite time ago. Now, scientists have been trying for the past century or so, to craft a model that precludes the universe beginning to exist but none so far has had much success. The 20th century history of cosmology can perhaps be described as a series of failed attempts to craft a working alternative model to the standard Big Bang model.

    All these attempts however came to what could be called a watershed with the publication by Arvind Borde, Alan Guth and Alexander Vilenkin of the theorem that now bears their name. The Borde-Guth-Vilenkin (BGV) Theorem predicts that any universe that is on average expanding even at a very minimal rate is not past-eternal and had an absolute beginning. This applies even to cyclic models of the universe and even to eternal inflationary multiverses. Vilenkin, in his book, is blunt about the implications of this theory,

    “It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. With the proof now in place, cosmologists can no longer hide behind the possibility of a past-eternal universe. There is no escape, they have to face the problem of a cosmic beginning.”
    - Alexander Vilenkin, Many Worlds in One, 176.

    The BGV Theorem single-handedly sweeps aside all the most important attempts to find an alternate model of the universe that does not involve an absolute beginning.


    B. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics

    There is a second scientific confirmation however that involves a law that is so well understood especially in comparison the the relatively controversial standard model. According to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, elements within a closed system tend to, over time, result in a state of rest, ie thermodynamic equilibrium. For examples of this law at work, take water inside a bath and disturb it. You will observe the disturbance gradually cease until a state of rest reemerges in the absence of further stimuli.

    The argument then is elegant in it's simplicity. If the universe is such a closed system and has existed for infinite time, why is it not now in a state of thermodynamic equilibrium? The conclusion can only be that it has not, in fact, existed for infinite time, thus serving as further confirmation of premise (2).


    --
    I.II. The Causal Principle

    In light of this evidence, atheists are forced to conclude that the universe, if it began to exist, came from nothing. But surely, this makes no sense? Out of nothing, nothing comes. A metaphyisical principle that is both necessary to science and a principal principle for our understand of the world. This causal principle is everyday confirmed in our experience of the world. It is confirmed empirically by every observation by science since the dawn of mankind. Empiricists thus have the strongest of motivations to accept premise (1).


    --
    I.III. Nature of the Cause / Conclusion

    We have thus far deduced that the universe began to exist and it had a cause. What then can we deduce of the nature of this cause? It must be timeless since time began to exist. It must be spaceless since space began to exist. It must be immaterial and changeless prior to the creation of the universe. It must be enormously intelligent and enormously powerful to have caused the universe into being. And finally, it must be a 'personal mind'.

    The Cause being a Personal Mind

    1. An eternal cause precedes an eternal effect – a ball weighing down on a matress from eternity past will always have a matress being weighed down. If the cause is eternal, the effect must also be eternal bar 'agent causation'. The only possible exception is a personal mind that freely chooses to produce it's effect.
    2. Only two objects are immaterial, abstract objects and minds – we know of only two things that fit the criterion if being immateral. Abstract objects, like numbers and propositions, and unembodied minds. It cannot be abstract objects since abstract objects are causally effete, ie they don't cause anything. It follow then that the cause is an unemboidied mind.

    Infinite Regress of Causes

    Occam's Razor will then shave off any further causes to just one necessary cause. We are thus left with a cause of the universe that is necessary in it's nature, is timeless, spaceless, immaterial and changeless, enormously powerful and enormously intelligent, and lastly personal. And that is what we minimally mean when we speak of God.


    PS. This is not a copy-paste of some internet article. I wrote it myself according to my understanding of William Lane Craig's writings including but not limited to his book, Reasonable Faith, his article on the Kalam Cosmological Argument in the Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology, his article "Theistic Critiques of Atheism" in the Cambridge Companion to Atheism and his various articles in his website, www.reasonablefaith.com.

    So, uh, discuss?
    Last edited by XIII; May 30, 2011 at 11:46 PM.
    “We humans do not understand compassion. In each moment of our lives, we betray it. Aye, we know of its worth, yet in knowing we then attach to it a value, we guard the giving of it, believing it must be earned, T’lan Imass. Compassion is priceless in the truest sense of the word. It must be given freely. In abundance.
    ― Steven Erikson, Memories of Ice

    “The heart of wisdom is tolerance.”
    ― Steven Erikson, Memories of Ice

  2. #2
    Tuor's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Arkansas, USA
    Posts
    1,261

    Default Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument for the Existence of God

    Your argument fell apart, in my opinion, when you started talking about minds being immaterial. That premise needs to be justified and proven before you can jump ship and say that the cause of the universe must be some sort of intelligence.

  3. #3

    Default Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument for the Existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by XIII View Post
    For example, what is infinity minus infinity?
    Well, any number minus itself is zero, isn't it?

    As for the rest of your post, I agree with you - of course the Universe had a beginning. Science has largely abandoned the idea that the Universe has always existed and will always exist, and I think that theory fell out of favor when the Big Bang became the most favored theory of the Universe's coming into being.

    Simply having a beginning does not definitely prove the existence of a God, though, because the acceptance of the existence of a God leads to the same questions as the existence the Universe. If nothing can be truly infinite then God can not have existed forever, and if God has not existed forever than God must have had a beginning. Nothing comes from nothing, so what caused God's beginning? Another beginning, another 'Cause'? In the end you go back over the same questions over and over because the final question in the series of inevitable questions has no answer: "at some point, nothing must have existed, and something must have come to be. How is this possible?"

    You mentioned Ockham's razor. Is it not simplest to suggest that something spontaneously came from nothing than that God caused something to come from nothing?

    Anyway the only possible explanation I can see is a cop out. Before space and time existed, the laws of spacetime did not apply -- that is, there is no reason to apply the laws of physics or any knowledge we have of the Universe to the events which lead to the creation of that Universe. Before 'something' existed, 'nothing' was ruled by lawlessness; and without those laws, there is no reason to think that nothing can't simply turn into something, at which point something is bound by the rules of its own existence (or else it would be nothing) and the Big Bang and the Universe's creation followed those rules.
    Last edited by Justinian; May 30, 2011 at 11:05 PM.

    Patron of Felixion, Ulyaoth, Reidy, Ran Taro and Darth Red
    Co-Founder of the House of Caesars


  4. #4
    XIII's Avatar Centenarius
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Philippines
    Posts
    817

    Default Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument for the Existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Justinian View Post
    Simply having a beginning does not definitely prove the existence of a God, though, because the acceptance of the existence of a God leads to the same questions as the existence the Universe. If nothing can be truly infinite then God can not have existed forever, and if God has not existed forever than God must have had a beginning. Nothing comes from nothing, so what caused God's beginning? Another beginning, another 'Cause'? In the end you go back over the same questions over and over because the final question in the series of inevitable questions has no answer: "at some point, nothing must have existed, and something must have come to be. How is this possible?"
    Because God is, by definition, the metaphysical ultimate. The objection, "what caused God?", is very common when dealing with the Kalam Cosmological Argument (KCA) and it arises because of a basic misunderstanding of Premise 1.

    The premise is: Everything that begins to exist has a cause.

    The formulation of the premise is such that it does not discount the possibility of things that are metaphysically necessary, in other words, things that exists by the necessity of it's own nature. Numbers, for example, has been argue to be an example of a thing that exists by the necessity of it's own nature.

    Secondly, going back to my first point, God is, by definition, the metaphysical ultimate, the root cause of all existence. So understood, the question is the same as asking, "What is the cause of the first uncaused cause?". By definition, a first, uncaused cause cannot have a cause. It's like asking what is "north of the north pole?" In a nutshell, the question posits a logical impossibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justinian View Post
    You mentioned Ockham's razor. Is it not simplest to suggest that something spontaneously came from nothing than that God caused something to come from nothing?
    Definitely simpler. The question is: is it plausible? Ex nihilo, nihil fit - out of nothing, nothing comes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justinian View Post
    Anyway the only possible explanation I can see is a cop out. Before space and time existed, the laws of spacetime did not apply -- that is, there is no reason to apply the laws of physics or any knowledge we have of the Universe to the events which lead to the creation of that Universe. Before 'something' existed, 'nothing' was ruled by lawlessness; and without those laws, nothing can turn into something, at which point something is bound by the rules of its own existence (or else it would be nothing) and the Big Bang and the Universe's creation followed those rules.
    First off, this is conjecture and we have absolutely no evidence for this. But more importantly, this arises from a misunderstanding of what 'nothing' means. It means the total absence of anything and everything, even a hypothetical law, "out of nothing, something comes". Because after all, not even laws exist. And besides, I think it's arbitrary. Such a principle is susceptible of being 'ad-hoc', an argument tailored to the circumstances of some event x.
    “We humans do not understand compassion. In each moment of our lives, we betray it. Aye, we know of its worth, yet in knowing we then attach to it a value, we guard the giving of it, believing it must be earned, T’lan Imass. Compassion is priceless in the truest sense of the word. It must be given freely. In abundance.
    ― Steven Erikson, Memories of Ice

    “The heart of wisdom is tolerance.”
    ― Steven Erikson, Memories of Ice

  5. #5
    Tuor's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Arkansas, USA
    Posts
    1,261

    Default Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument for the Existence of God

    Assuming something exists that created the Universe "before" there was time doesn't make any sense. You wouldn't have a "before" before time.

  6. #6

    Default Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument for the Existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuor View Post
    Assuming something exists that created the Universe "before" there was time doesn't make any sense. You wouldn't have a "before" before time.
    That God dwells in eternity does not mean God has "always" existed. Eternity must not be understood as an infinite temporal series, but simply as an atemporal condition.

    Realistically, it is said that time is a conditioning only for certain forms of physical and non-physical manifestation. God is excluded from this.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  7. #7
    XIII's Avatar Centenarius
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Philippines
    Posts
    817

    Default Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument for the Existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean de la Valette View Post
    That God dwells in eternity does not mean God has "always" existed. Eternity must not be understood as an infinite temporal series, but simply as an atemporal condition.

    Realistically, it is said that time is a conditioning only for certain forms of physical and non-physical manifestation. God is excluded from this.
    Yeah, this is typically what theists mean when they that God transcends time. It's not as though God exists within the spacetime universe, rather the theistic view is that God transcends space and time. (Or at least, that's what Craig argues anyway.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean de la Valette View Post
    Oh that's all nice. Just throwing in a couple of thoughts. Never mind.
    That's fine! Just keep throwing them please.

    PS. How do I subscribe to threads?
    Last edited by XIII; May 30, 2011 at 11:50 PM.
    “We humans do not understand compassion. In each moment of our lives, we betray it. Aye, we know of its worth, yet in knowing we then attach to it a value, we guard the giving of it, believing it must be earned, T’lan Imass. Compassion is priceless in the truest sense of the word. It must be given freely. In abundance.
    ― Steven Erikson, Memories of Ice

    “The heart of wisdom is tolerance.”
    ― Steven Erikson, Memories of Ice

  8. #8

    Default Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument for the Existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by XIII View Post
    Because God is, by definition, the metaphysical ultimate.
    That is the new definition of God by people who want to make an implausible figure seem more plausible. It is not the definition of God.

    The objection, "what caused God?", is very common when dealing with the Kalam Cosmological Argument (KCA) and it arises because of a basic misunderstanding of Premise 1.

    The premise is: Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
    If, unlike all other things, God did not have to begin to exist, but has simply always existed, then he is not the only thing that may have always existed. We know that the Universe, at least all the known pieces of it (space time, matter, dark matter, etc), has not always existed and had a finite beginning, but that does not mean that the imperative that the Universe should begin to exist did not exist before it. You could call this imperative 'God', but to assign an intellectual property to it, or a mind, was a huge leap in logic in the OP and is a little ridiculous.

    For such a thing to exist would make it beyond our comprehension and ability to reason with, which makes the idea of religion -- and, indeed, the idea that we should care about this imperative, this entity you wish to call God -- preposterous. It is impossible to understand, communicate with or impact in any way (or indeed be impacted by) something that operates outside the bounds of our Universe and its laws. Even if a God of this kind were to exist, any religion attempting to explain or relate to this God would be complete silliness.

    Furthermore once the Universe is created the imperative is satisfied and it no longer exists or matters.

    The formulation of the premise is such that it does not discount the possibility of things that are metaphysically necessary, in other words, things that exists by the necessity of it's own nature. Numbers, for example, has been argue to be an example of a thing that exists by the necessity of it's own nature.
    Then the Universe itself is metaphysically necessary, or at least like I said the necessity for the Universe to come into existence. I disagree that numbers exist by necessity, though; numbers are a human construct, obviously, and the Universe (probably) obeyed the same laws before we got smart enough to quantify them and put them into formulas. Numbers are perhaps a way to express something that is necessary, but are not necessary in and of themself. The same expression could be made with something else.

    Numbers are a necessity to humans, but to suggest that what is necessary to us is what is necessary to the Universe is a little presumptuous, no?

    Secondly, going back to my first point, God is, by definition, the metaphysical ultimate, the root cause of all existence.
    Why? You can only argue that there should be a root cause of all existence, not that that cause is God. I think you are misinterpreting the meaning of the word 'cause' in this case. A cause does not imply some intellectual intent. The collision of hydrogen atoms at the high velocity and high pressure of the Sun's core causes them to turn into a helium atom; that does not suggest it is the intent of hydrogen atoms to turn into helium, or that it is the intent of the Sun to turn them into helium, simply that it is possible, and in that precise situation, inevitable.

    If you want to define God as the inevitable imperative for something to exist, then I would accept that, but that is not 'God' in any typical sense.

    So understood, the question is the same as asking, "What is the cause of the first uncaused cause?". By definition, a first, uncaused cause cannot have a cause. It's like asking what is "north of the north pole?" In a nutshell, the question posits a logical impossibility.
    What's preventing the Big Bang from being the first uncaused cause?

    Definitely simpler. The question is: is it plausible? Ex nihilo, nihil fit - out of nothing, nothing comes.

    First off, this is conjecture and we have absolutely no evidence for this. But more importantly, this arises from a misunderstanding of what 'nothing' means. It means the total absence of anything and everything, even a hypothetical law, "out of nothing, something comes". Because after all, not even laws exist. And besides, I think it's arbitrary. Such a principle is susceptible of being 'ad-hoc', an argument tailored to the circumstances of some event x.
    It's not plausible under the rules that our Universe is governed by, no. But we are discussing pre-Universe (which is a term that really doesn't make sense, as 'pre' means chronologically before, taking place earlier in time, when time did not exist, so bare with my usage of it) which would have to be governed by its own set of rules -- that is, no set of rules whatsoever, because as you said not even laws exist. I am not positing that there is a hypothetical law "something comes out of nothing", but that the lack of a law preventing something coming out of nothing enables something to come out of nothing.

    It is impossible to predict how 'nothing' will behave because we have never been able to observe, and never will be able to observe, true nothing (I don't think I need to explain why). It is therefore perfectly logical to assume that nothing can behave in absolutely any way, including spontaneously turning into something.

    It certainly is simpler than saying a supernatural being exists outside of the bounds of space time and yet is somehow able to cause and then presumably affect space time. What mechanism does this being have to cause changes to happen? How does it create something?

    PS. How do I subscribe to threads?
    At the top of the screen, right below the "Add Reply" button, is a bar. On the right side of that bar is 'Thread Tools', click that and then 'Subscribe to thread'.
    Last edited by Justinian; May 31, 2011 at 12:01 AM.

    Patron of Felixion, Ulyaoth, Reidy, Ran Taro and Darth Red
    Co-Founder of the House of Caesars


  9. #9

    Default Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument for the Existence of God

    Actual Infinites and Reality

    The very first of these problems are problems to do with actual infinites existing in physical reality. Most mathematicians recognize that actual infinites are mere ideas in your mind that have no place in reality. Why? Well, when dealing with actual infinites, mathematically, you get self-contradictory answers. For example, what is infinity minus infinity? And an infinite series of temporal events just is such an actual infinite.

    In order to unpack this point, we must first distinguish between actual infinites and potential infinites. An actual infinite, indicated by the symbol aleph ℵ0, is an infinite that is complete. It is a number that is greater than the set of all natural numbers, {1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9...}. That is to say, all the elements of the infinite set is already there. A potential infinite is a number that always approaches the infinite but never actually gets there, represented by the symbol of a lying-down 8, the lemniscate, ∞. Say, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9... Such an infinite is really indefinite instead of infinite.
    This is a minor detail in the whole argument, but the set of natural numbers has cardinality aleph-0 and so do all sets that can be mapped one-to-one which every natural number. The set of real numbers has a cardinality of aleph-1 (being 2^aleph 0) because it is greater than the set of natural numbers since one cannot use bijection between the two sets completely.

    1. An actually infinite number of things cannot exist.
    I'm not saying I do think an infinite number of things, but I think you need take into account what you mean for all things that exist.
    Presumably by:
    2. A beginning-less series of events in time entails an actually infinite number of things.
    You include all time states. However, do you include all possible arrangements for the sum total of energy in all time states? The universe isn't completely deterministic and has more than one way of doing things (in fact it is these fluctuations that allow for galaxies to form otherwise everything would be boringly homogeneous).

    Also I don't really see how Hilbert's hotel shows that an infinity is impossible, it just shows how some infinite sets are of the same size and some are larger.

    One thing that I should add is that you have quite a linear idea of time, which is something that can be warped and stretched. A true oscillatory universe (not that I am advocating one) would take time with it upon contraction, meaning that you would go back to the beginning of time (at least I am fairly sure). Does time still remain infinite in this case?
    Although, even in an oscillatory system with potential infinite time, there is always at least one uncaused object in the universe which is the system itself. It is not uncaused in time but uncaused beyond time. However, even with this established, all that we know is that there is one uncaused entity. Why should this uncaused entity be a god?

  10. #10
    Krixux's Avatar Ordinarius
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    734

    Default Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument for the Existence of God

    XIII
    interesting logic!

    Justinian
    Well, any number minus itself is zero, isn't it?
    Wrong!

    "infinity minus infinity" situation.
    This is resolved by using x^2/2^x ->0 as x->oo.
    Here's the argument: x^2 - 2^x = 2^x(x^2/2^x - 1)
    The second factor goes to -1 and the first becomes infinite.
    So, the limit goes to -oo.
    "infinity minus infinity" is an indeterminate form.

    also:
    The extended real line contains two points "at infinity": +oo and -oo
    The extended real line also comes with a notion of subtraction that's defined for most, but not all arguments.
    (+oo)-(-oo)= +oo and (-oo)-(+oo)= -oo,
    but (+oo)-(+oo) and (-oo)-(-oo) are undefined.

    jack04
    Essentially, quantum mechanics seems to imply that events can occur without explicit cause, presuming they fulfil certain requirements (requirements a zero energy universe would entirely comply with) set out by Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.
    “quantum mechanics seems to imply that events can occur without explicit cause” that we know of m8, not yet, we just discovered that quantum rabbit hole...
    + 'It is impossible, absolutely impossible to explain it in any classical way'.

    a clue:
    “Photons have no rest mass for example, a very odd property! Light is also unique in that it always travels at the same speed. However you move, and however the light source moves, when you measure the speed of light you always come up with the same answer. By way of comparison, two cars approaching each other and each having a speed of 30 mph will be approaching each other at a speed of 60 mph. Two light beams, both travelling of course at the speed of light, will be approaching each other at the speed of light, not twice the speed of light.”

    The principle of Uncertainty fixed once for all the realisation that all knowledge is limited, that there is no such thing as absolute certainty

    “It may be possible that we need to develop a new form of logic to be able to describe what is happening at the quantum level. It may be that it is not enough to say that a statement is either true or false, we may have to introduce a three-valued quantum logic which allows the additional status of 'undecided'. This would mean that a statement that is not true need not be false”
     
     
     
    D I V I D E - ET - I M P E R A

    & A PROPER EMPIRE: TERRA INCOGNITA .... A P E - T I
    __________________________________________________________________________________________________
    "Perhaps, as some wit remarked, the best proof that there is Intelligent Life in Outer Space is the fact it hasn't come here. Well, it can't hide forever - one day we will overhear it."

  11. #11

    Default Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument for the Existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by XIII
    Nice arguments
    The problem with all these arguments, and generally with traditional Christian metaphysics since the Scholastics, is that while they are all nice, try to fetch themselves an apodictical stance and may be applied to many situations... Is that they are incomplete.

    I take issue with a lot of these "prime mover" arguments. To me it seems God is not a "prime mover"; similarly, it is wrong to speak of non-being as simply the absence of potentiality, or to postulate existence as being God's essence, and that there is nothing outside existence proper.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  12. #12
    XIII's Avatar Centenarius
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Philippines
    Posts
    817

    Default Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument for the Existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean de la Valette View Post
    The problem with all these arguments, and generally with traditional Christian metaphysics since the Scholastics, is that while they are all nice, try to fetch themselves an apodictical stance and may be applied to many situations... Is that they are incomplete.

    I take issue with a lot of these "prime mover" arguments. To me it seems God is not a "prime mover"; similarly, it is wrong to speak of non-being as simply the absence of potentiality, or to postulate existence as being God's essence, and that there is nothing outside existence proper.
    This is to miss the point, I think, of why I'm posting these arguments. It's not as though I'm expecting to convince anyone to abandon their world-views simply because of a couple of arguments, no matter how forceful. Rather, the point is to get people to think and to soften the ground, so to speak.

    I find that very often, people who are not religious tend to dismiss religious belief as irrational without giving it a second thought. Both sides are guilty of this and I think that this is very unfortunate. Both sides lose out with this sort of closed-minded thinking.

    That said, if there's anything you'd like to contribute to the discussion, I'd be happy to hear them. Have a nice day.
    Last edited by XIII; May 30, 2011 at 11:41 PM.
    “We humans do not understand compassion. In each moment of our lives, we betray it. Aye, we know of its worth, yet in knowing we then attach to it a value, we guard the giving of it, believing it must be earned, T’lan Imass. Compassion is priceless in the truest sense of the word. It must be given freely. In abundance.
    ― Steven Erikson, Memories of Ice

    “The heart of wisdom is tolerance.”
    ― Steven Erikson, Memories of Ice

  13. #13

    Default Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument for the Existence of God

    Oh that's all nice. Just throwing in a couple of thoughts. Never mind.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  14. #14

    Default Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument for the Existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by XIII View Post
    I. The Kalam Cosmological Argument
    as formulated by William Lane Craig

    1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
    2. The universe began to exist.
    3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.
    1. Really?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_fluctuation

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamb_shift

    ... or even the apparently random nature of quantum tunnelling success.

    Essentially, quantum mechanics seems to imply that events can occur without explicit cause, presuming they fulfil certain requirements (requirements a zero energy universe would entirely comply with) set out by Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.

    2. As discussed elsewhere, a universe which has passed through a singularity phase could equally well describe observations.
    Last edited by Jack04; May 31, 2011 at 02:58 AM.

  15. #15
    black-dragon's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,298

    Default Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument for the Existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by XIII View Post
    [B]B. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics

    There is a second scientific confirmation however that involves a law that is so well understood especially in comparison the the relatively controversial standard model. According to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, elements within a closed system tend to, over time, result in a state of rest, ie thermodynamic equilibrium. For examples of this law at work, take water inside a bath and disturb it. You will observe the disturbance gradually cease until a state of rest reemerges in the absence of further stimuli.

    The argument then is elegant in it's simplicity. If the universe is such a closed system and has existed for infinite time, why is it not now in a state of thermodynamic equilibrium? The conclusion can only be that it has not, in fact, existed for infinite time, thus serving as further confirmation of premise (2).
    This isn't strictly true. Given an infinite amount of time, it's been mathematically proven that a system will eventually return to any given state that it has been in. i.e. the entropy will eventually decrease.

    As for the argument in general, it falls apart when it asserts that minds can exist apart from brains and that the only abstract objects in existence are minds and numbers.
    'If there is an ultimate meaning to existence, as I believe is the case, the answer is to be found within nature, not beyond it. The universe might indeed be a fix, but if so, it has fixed itself.' - Paul Davies, the guy that religious apologists always take out of context.

    Attention new-agers: I have a quantum loofah that you might be interested in.

  16. #16

    Default Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument for the Existence of God

    Right, now I have a little more time on my hands I'll try and discuss some of the other aspects.

    Quote Originally Posted by XIII View Post
    I.I. The universe began to exist

    I.I.I. Philosophical Confirmation of Premise 2.


    Actual Infinites and Reality

    A. Impossibility of an Actual Infinite

    1. An actually infinite number of things cannot exist.
    2. A beginning-less series of events in time entails an actually infinite number of things.
    3. Therefore, a beginning-less series of events in time cannot exist.
    What about discontinuities? Time, remember, is not a constant. In fact, at a singularity, time looses all meaning. So the constituents of our universe may well have been a part of another universe, seperated by a temporal discontinuity. The lack of a linear temporal link makes the elimination of such hypotheses considerably more complex than you have implied with your fairly linear assumptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by XIII View Post
    Premise 2:

    Premise 2 is obvious in it's implications. If the universe has existed for infinite time it would be an example of just such an actual infinite which we know to be absurd. Craig's choice of words here is interesting. By choosing to define time as events rather than as moments, he preempts a possible objection to the argument, that is that moments are relative.
    He still presumes a linear progression of events. Whereas in reality, any progression would lose all meaning upon entering a singularity.

    Quote Originally Posted by XIII View Post
    I.II. The Causal Principle

    In light of this evidence, atheists are forced to conclude that the universe, if it began to exist, came from nothing. But surely, this makes no sense? Out of nothing, nothing comes. A metaphyisical principle that is both necessary to science and a principal principle for our understanding of the world. This causal principle is everyday confirmed in our experience of the world. It is confirmed empirically by every observation by science since the dawn of mankind. Empiricists thus have the strongest of motivations to accept premise (1).
    As I posted previously, there is considerable empirical evidence that causality does not hold universally, but only when net energy is involved (above and beyond that allowed by Heisenberg). It is also important to remember that we live in a universe in which energy is conserved and we have no method for its creation, or (importantly) the creation of spacetime. The universe also, appears to be almost perfectly flat, implying a universe in which there is zero net energy. We are incapable of creating such systems, so any appeal to experience is actually irrelevant. Especially when you remember that causality is merely an expression of the conservation of energy and momentum. In order to induce an energetic response in an object, some form of energy must be imparted upon it. So if a system is created with no net energy, there need be no net impartation of energy to that system.

    Quote Originally Posted by XIII View Post
    I.III. Nature of the Cause / Conclusion

    We have thus far deduced that the universe began to exist and it had a cause. What then can we deduce of the nature of this cause? It must be timeless since time began to exist. It must be spaceless since space began to exist. It must be immaterial and changeless prior to the creation of the universe. It must be enormously intelligent and enormously powerful to have caused the universe into being. And finally, it must be a 'personal mind'.
    Were such a being to exist, I would posit that it could be almost impossibly impotent, for reasons expressed previously.
    Last edited by Jack04; May 31, 2011 at 04:23 AM.

  17. #17
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Stockholm, Sverige
    Posts
    22,877

    Default Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument for the Existence of God

    B. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics

    There is a second scientific confirmation however that involves a law that is so well understood especially in comparison the the relatively controversial standard model. According to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, elements within a closed system tend to, over time, result in a state of rest, ie thermodynamic equilibrium. For examples of this law at work, take water inside a bath and disturb it. You will observe the disturbance gradually cease until a state of rest reemerges in the absence of further stimuli.

    The argument then is elegant in it's simplicity. If the universe is such a closed system and has existed for infinite time, why is it not now in a state of thermodynamic equilibrium? The conclusion can only be that it has not, in fact, existed for infinite time, thus serving as further confirmation of premise (2).
    Nobody knows for sure if the Universe is a closed system but that alone is false because the universe contains hundreds of millions of galaxies and those galaxies each contain millions of solar systems and worlds. Hence the Universe is not closed because galaxies and solar systems interact with each other.

  18. #18

    Default Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument for the Existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    Nobody knows for sure if the Universe is a closed system but that alone is false because the universe contains hundreds of millions of galaxies and those galaxies each contain millions of solar systems and worlds. Hence the Universe is not closed because galaxies and solar systems interact with each other.
    The interactions occur within the confines of the universe though. We have no reason to believe that the universe is not a closed system (as far as I'm aware). This does fail to take into account the potential impact of certain more exotic phenomena though, such as vacuum energy (a property of space itself).

    See: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/co...not-conserved/, for more discussion about the nature of vacuum energy.

  19. #19

    Default Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument for the Existence of God

    Somebody please explain why existence isn't just an eternal chain of events, whose current manifestation is this universe.

    Anybody who says entropy disproves an eternity of events should first explain why another thermodynamics thing i.e. the law of conservation doesn't apply to creation.

  20. #20
    Opifex
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    New York, USA
    Posts
    15,154

    Default Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument for the Existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Philp View Post
    Somebody please explain why existence isn't just an eternal chain of events, whose current manifestation is this universe.
    To posit this would be illogical: if the universe had existed for an infinite amount of time, then it would never actually arrive to the present, and you would not exist.


    Quote Originally Posted by black-dragon View Post
    This isn't strictly true. Given an infinite amount of time, it's been mathematically proven that a system will eventually return to any given state that it has been in. i.e. the entropy will eventually decrease.
    Where?

    Just as a general point, it has been shown time and time again that it is scientifically flawed to apply mathematical models to the real world. In fact there is no connection at all between mathematical models and the real world; sometimes they can overlap purely accidentally, but as a general process mathematics deals with its own internal world of self-consistent truisms and deductions, which have no basis in reality or the facts of the physical world. No physical system has ever been observed to "eventually return to any given state that it has been in". The stars just destroy themselves and collapse. Physical states all move towards self-decay. That's why the Law of Entropy exists (that entropy always increases) even exists in the science of physics, regardless of what the mathematical models 'proved'. It is a law of thermodynamics.
    Last edited by SigniferOne; May 31, 2011 at 10:58 AM.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •