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Thread: SSHIP - Original Thread (archived)

  1. #101

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Next Part: East-Central Europe!

    I like Gdansk but not sure if Poland should have both Thorn and Gdansk. I think Lublin could fill in a blank spot on map for 1100 start. Halych should probably start rebel rather than under Poland in 1100 however or even be dropped when Rus principalities are re-organized.

    Probably Halych should be in the discussion of Rus more than for Poland but removing it from Polish control at game start is good. Changing Thorn to Gdansk is ok- addition of Lublin seems ok to me as well and it works if Hungary loses a region to Serbia but gain a region from Cumans. Cumans should definitely have at least 1 region under control in 1100 but also should have more power concentrated in the steppes and north of Caucuses.

    I really have little idea about Hungary though so Mbrabant suggestions seems reasonable I guess unless someone objects. I just would be careful about adding too many regions when there isn't a Serbian faction in the game. However gains control of Balkans (Byzantines or Hungary) will become a superpower. In reality that might have been true actually but with Venice, Hungary, Serbia, Bulgaria, Byzantines, other Italians, Cumans, etc competing in the region it was much more difficult for one power to gain control than it would be in the game with only 2 factions competing much.
    Last edited by Ichon; July 10, 2011 at 01:25 PM.

  2. #102

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Next Part: East-Central Europe!

    Kronstat=dt instead of Brasov. Same city, saxon name, like their founders. Bistrita, Brasov and Sibiu was cities builded out of former dacians-roman cities. To make Hungary interesting like faction, my proposal is to add teutonic order like religious order to them. Is historical, they defend the Transylvania against walachians, pechenegs and cumans, they settled in Barsa county, a romanian autonomus part of Transylvania to the late 1450.
    About Wallachia and Moldavia, Baia was the capital of northen Moldavia, a military mark maded by Hungary in late 1200. That puppet state lived somewere like 50 years and was ruled by a romanian principe from northen Transylvania. That why I look at Baia in 1250 and suggested to Gracul to add it on map, istead of very late city of Iasi.
    In 1100 we cant be certain about Kronstadt, we we can say about urban Moldavia. Was a rural coutry, with romanian population mixed with pechenegs, slavs and having a military elite and aristrocracy of cumans, the black ones.If in 1200 I am sure about Kronstad, Baia was not there. If we keep the province, because in 1300 was not significant, but strong enough to help Poland, under their vassality being, to beat teutons, my suggestion about the capilal, like biggest city, will be Vicina. That will be at Danube, in very south extreme of province.
    The Wallachia is other story here. Targoviste is maybe the capital of XIII century, of the wallachian princes who halt Hungary. For capital I think Severin is a good choice. What is a must, extend the province in SS, map. At now is only a half. Add to that, in 1220 campaign is no tatar/mongolian presence there near, that is a must.


    I add suggestions, green controled by Hungary Transylvania, blue Wallachia, red Moldavia.

    I hope it helps.

    Kill Them All, Let God Sort Them Out!


  3. #103
    Tiro
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    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Next Part: East-Central Europe!

    Halych was a capital of Galitsko-Volinskoe Duchy till ~ 1340. Formally as a part of Kievan Rus, but really independent of it.
    Wiki only on russian, translate with google if needed.

    Last edited by ITC; July 10, 2011 at 05:09 PM.

  4. #104

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Next Part: East-Central Europe!

    Some initial thoughts: Poland looks good as it is, though I'd like to have Gdansk instead of Thorn in the Pomerelia region. As for my little country Hungary, I reckon the current region borders are quite acceptable there as well - only Brasov needs to be replaced by Gyulafehérvár as the latter was the historical capital of Transylvania. Mbrabant has listed some possible inclusions, out of these only Székesfehérvár or Pécs would make sense but only if Esztergom won't be touched as apparently it was the most important Hungarian city back then. Várad is actually in its right place, only its called Nagyvárad now in Hungarian (and Oradea in Romanian), therefore it shouldn't be touched either.
    Halych seems to be right to me, but I'm still not sure about which settlements should represent Moldavia and Wallachia as both Baia and Targoviste looks a bit suspect to me - for this reason I'd welcome more ideas on that.

    Also, please ignore the regions of the Balkans for now, they are to be discussed in the next Part.

  5. #105

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Next Part: East-Central Europe!

    Halych is not bad in itself but Poland-Lithuania did not gain full control there until 1300s. As a principality it makes more sense at start and also should have higher Orthodox religion.

    No comment on Hungary.

  6. #106

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Next Part: East-Central Europe!

    Baia was the capital of hungarian mark maded in Moldavia in late 1300, maybe 1359. Before that we have like I said, Vicina, byzantine city, also ruled by genovese. You can try also Milcov in 1241, the date when cumans get the roman-catholic archbishop there.

    About Wallachia, first capital was Campulung, after that come Targoviste. But Severin was there from some time before. In fact that small state locate in eastern Wallachia was in war with hungarians at their first expansion in Transylvania.

    About the changing Transylvania first city, not capital, Kronstadt is more likely to be there. In fact the medieval cities in Transylvania, Wallachia and Moldavia was saxon enterprises. In Transylvania lived more because the mongols not cross the Carpathians mountains, in Wallachia and Moldavia they face full blow in urban area. After that we have a big reinaincence in urban area, this will work to 16 century when the control of Danube and Black Sea ports was lost to ottomans.

    Kill Them All, Let God Sort Them Out!


  7. #107
    Giorgios's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Next Part: East-Central Europe!

    I'd link the Wallachia region with the open steppe of modern Ukraine, if I were you- until the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries, it had much more in common with this sort of area than it did with the other parts of modern day Romania.

  8. #108

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Next Part: East-Central Europe!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichon View Post
    Halych is not bad in itself but Poland-Lithuania did not gain full control there until 1300s. As a principality it makes more sense at start and also should have higher Orthodox religion.

    No comment on Hungary.
    Actually, I meant the region borders were all right and even though I didn't intend to discuss ownerships now (they are gonna be different in 1100 and 1132 anyway), I think Halych should indeed start as independent in the early era, regardless of the start date. As for religion, we will see about that later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gogolometro View Post
    Baia was the capital of hungarian mark maded in Moldavia in late 1300, maybe 1359. Before that we have like I said, Vicina, byzantine city, also ruled by genovese. You can try also Milcov in 1241, the date when cumans get the roman-catholic archbishop there.

    About Wallachia, first capital was Campulung, after that come Targoviste. But Severin was there from some time before. In fact that small state locate in eastern Wallachia was in war with hungarians at their first expansion in Transylvania.

    About the changing Transylvania first city, not capital, Kronstadt is more likely to be there. In fact the medieval cities in Transylvania, Wallachia and Moldavia was saxon enterprises. In Transylvania lived more because the mongols not cross the Carpathians mountains, in Wallachia and Moldavia they face full blow in urban area. After that we have a big reinaincence in urban area, this will work to 16 century when the control of Danube and Black Sea ports was lost to ottomans.
    Thanks, I guess I get your point now. Severin looks good as a replacement for Targoviste and I'm also pondering the possibility of extending the Wallachia region towards West, like I once proposed in Roz's previous thread (let me know if you agree with that).
    Vicina also seems to be a reasonable choice, but unfortunately I couldn't find any info on this settlement - could you perhaps give me some links, please?
    As for Kronstadt, well, I'm at a loss to understand this suggestion: the city I found with this name is not located in Transylvania but in Northwest Russia... I think (or at least, hope) you wasn't referring to that, so I'd appreciate if you could give me some more detailed info about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giorgios View Post
    I'd link the Wallachia region with the open steppe of modern Ukraine, if I were you- until the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries, it had much more in common with this sort of area than it did with the other parts of modern day Romania.
    Thanks, but I don't really see the point in this idea - it could indeed have had more in common with the steppes but linking the two areas would hardly be a popular decision I'm afraid (I don't fancy it either). Moreover, even if we put more focus on the early campaign now, we also need to keep half an eye on the late one as well.

    I'm gonna post my detailed proposals later today, folks!

  9. #109

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Next Part: East-Central Europe!

    Fair Prince, Kronstadt is the german name of Brasov. Saxons come in Transylvania and founded 7 cities. In fact, Transylvania name in german is siebenburgen or something close, my german is worse than russian. Ideea in the area german influence was huge in urban enterprises. That why hungarian king settle them there. They come like the conquerors of a land who take it 200 years, and at last another 200 years of asimilation of a romanian, slavic, pecheneg elite there. They settled sekeli in the east of Transylvania for border control, used romanian comites and small nobles to defend the north eastern and souther border, added teutons for a strong mark against cumans and saxons to build cities and better agriculture. I am not very sure but before saxons was settled people from western german lands. What is important is saxons not only builded transylvanian cities but the wallachian and moldavian too. Campulung, Targoviste, Cetatea Neamtului (the german castle mean), Suceava was builded by saxons and the elite was outside transylvanian lands, saxon, hungarian and romanian(olahus, wallachus). In my opinion Kronstadt(Brasov) is a significant settlement in Transylvania. That if you not want to make hungarian faction player and add teutonic order, and replace the Kronstadt with Bran Castle the teutonic order headquarters.

    About Wallachia, Severin was mentioned from the first clashes with hungarians, from IX cetury tu XI. There was the capital of a small western wallachian state who keep hungarians at bay sometime. Also from same location probably come the Black Prince, Negru Voda, probably an cuman warlord who will made the Wallachia like statal entity.

    Vicina is other story. For me is the closest urban area in extreme south of Moldavia. In 1100 we have a last breathe pecheneg there and the rise of black cumans. Vicina is not related with them, but 7-8 century byzantine empire. It was a port to Danube and after genovese expansion, their colony. I dont know what to pin point other settlement in Moldavia before 1300, mainly because mongols kick very hard that area.
    Milcov, the capital of black cumans, the future archbishopy of Rome church was erased by mongols.

    About the integration of Moldavia to Kiev, let face it, at that time Kiev have no contact with modern souther Ucraine. There was only the cumans kipckacs. The black cumans.

    I have other proposal, even in 1100 is not very historical, but very likely in 1220, we can add almost all Moldavia to Wallachia province, set capital to Severin, modern Drobeta Turnu Severin, and northen part of Moldavia integrate in Transylvania with capital at Kronstadt(Brasov). In 1300 hungarians like I said controled northen Moldavia and set a military mark with capital at Baia. Baia from hungarian balvanosj mean mines, that why they build a city there. Is a puppet state who will became independent and expanded to all Moldavia pretty soon. But will change a bit SS map, and I am not nationalistic enough to claim to have some uber focus on my birth lands.

    By the way, Vicina never founded in modern times. Is a lost city probably situated near Braila and Galati modern day. The Danube changed shape in 1000 years.

    Kill Them All, Let God Sort Them Out!


  10. #110

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Next Part: East-Central Europe!

    Wallachia with cuman rulers was extended to southern Moldavia, that is known in academic studies. What is interesting is, one of the greatest dominus of Walachia, Mircea the Elder, also controled southern Moldavia in 14 century.

    The cumans in fact was not just a state located on medieval roamnian principalities, but with their romanian vassals, are the motivation of succesfull bulgarian uprising, the Assan and Peter revolt. Their leaders, a vlach and a cuman probably Assan, after they loss the battles versus byzantines, go in Wallachia and coming with cuman and vlach reinforcements claim the crown of bulgarian empire. In my opinion in Bulgaria, the province under Wallachia must have not hungarian polls for AoR, but cumanic and probably vlach/wallachian pools, without excluding the bulgarian brigands. Also no more hungarian Sofia please. Maybe there we will have Tarnovo, very important bulgarian settlement with a mix of cumanic/bulgarian garison.

    Back to actual SS map or future modification, is a must to add pecheneg recruitment pools there. Before cumans there was pecheneg warlords control in the area.

    Kill Them All, Let God Sort Them Out!


  11. #111

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Next Part: East-Central Europe!

    Fair Prince I saw your sugestions on other topic and all are very acurate. And yes Campulung was first capital of Wallachia like we know under Basarab I. Ideea is the capital moved a lot in next 3-4 centuries.
    About forrests, both Wallachia and Moldavia was heavy forested. Transylvania mean after forests. All 3 romanian provinces was heavy, very heavy forrested. Maybe more than 60%. And we talk about huge size forrests. If the slavic population settled on riverside areas, better lands and better crops, the romanians knowed in medieval times like wallachians/vlachs/olahus settled in forrests. The ideea was pretty smart, because after "nice" barbarians like goths and gepids, all the people who come in the area was nomadic. Last one the hungarians took a while to conquer Transylvania because that. To put a horse archer to conquer forrest sounds like madness. Imagine you must walk in the woods, tens of miles even hundreds to find the villages in the middle were vlachs get crops of cabbage, onion and cattle.
    Nomadic people find these villages because hawks who fly in circles above some points, revealing trash and human presence.

    That will be a very interesting thing to have a heavy forrest in the area.

    Kill Them All, Let God Sort Them Out!


  12. #112

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Next Part: East-Central Europe!

    Thanks for your massive input Gogolometro, I'll keep your ideas in mind, though I won't deal with units or recruitment pools as it's none of my business.
    Good to know that Kronstadt is the German name of Brasov!

  13. #113

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Next Part: East-Central Europe!

    All right, let's see what we got in this Part then!

    Part 7: East-Central Europe
    EDIT: see the first post for details!

  14. #114

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Ideas on East-Central Europe are up, next part: Balkans!

    I guess we can now move on to the next chapter, let's start the discussion on the Balkans - as usual, I'll give you a list of the related settlements in advance:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Zagreb
    Belgrade
    Ragusa
    Sofia
    Scopia
    Durazzo
    Adrianople
    Constantinople
    Thessalonica
    Arta
    Athens
    Corinth
    Iraklion
    As always, useful ideas will be rewarded with reps and credit!

  15. #115
    Giorgios's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Ideas on East-Central Europe are up, next part: Balkans!

    Okay- as I tend to advise most mods on the Balkans due to Rhomano-phile tendencies!

    First and foremost, the frontier of the Bulgaria province should lie along the river Danube, and not intrude into Wallachia. The Danube was always the frontier of the area, under both Rhomanians (Byzantines) and Ottomans.

    Durazzo should be renamed to its Greek title "Dyrrachion"- the Latinised version of this is "Dyrrachium". It certainly shouldn't be the Italian "Durazzo", anyway.

    Athens was really not a very important city in the medieval era, though Corinth was. If you want another Greek city to replace Athens, I'd suggest Larisa- otherwise, just take it out, and get a new slot to "spend" on the Middle East somewhere. Western Anatolia would be my suggestion...

    Scopia should be replaced by Ochrid, the capital of the first Bulgarian Empire and a major city in the region.

    Sofia should get its Greek name of "Sardica".

    And here are two possible ones- swapping Arta for Nikopolis (both were important, Nikopolis more so in the 11th and 12th centuries, Arta afterward) and Adrianople for Philippopolis (again, for the early campaign, Philippopolis was more significant, for the late one, Adrianople was).

    Constantinople should certainly be a huge city, and Thessalonica should be a large one- it's a little known fact, but Thessalonica was likely the second largest city in early medieval Europe, larger even than Milan or Paris.

  16. #116

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Ideas on East-Central Europe are up, next part: Balkans!

    Great sugestions Giorgios.

    Kill Them All, Let God Sort Them Out!


  17. #117

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Ideas on East-Central Europe are up, next part: Balkans!

    I've read alot of claims to "largest" city in Europe but archeological evidence doesn't show that for many places. I do believe that populations were generally higher than estimated though as in ancient times just as now shanty towns were often around on the edges of cities which were commercial centers. Building in stone and brick (which required higher investment) which survives for archeologist to examine doesn't show the full population and even when estimates account for suburbs and people living beyond the walls because archeologist have never ever done a complete survey of a medieval city since usually modern city is overtop, I think in many cases those estimates are low. That said- for Thessaloniki to have more population than Corduba or Venice seems a bit far fetched. More than Paris or Milan I can easily accept as those cities were probably less than 100,000 until 1300s and then plague hit some regions much harder than others reducing population in many areas did not recover until 1500s. Huge cities should be quite limited at start. Constantinople definitely, probably Corduba still in 1100 though its decline had started, Marrakesh, Baghdad, Palermo in Sicily had easily over 200,00 as well, Cairo despite upheavals should be considered huge city with Merv and Urgench as well in 1100.Huge cities 8 total in 1100.

    Many of the Italian cities should start as large cities as well(Milan, Venice, Florence, Genoa, Rome) most of the other large cities would be in the east with only a couple in Europe- Tibriz, Thessaloniki, Paris, Sevilla, Antioch, Damascus, Jerusalem, Kiev, Basra, Shiraz, Alexandria, Derbent, Sarai, maybe a few others but not many. Of course smaller regions grow faster and some places like HRE would be full of small regions but grow in power relatively faster than other regions which already started large especially if growth rates of 6.4 are kept.

    Giorgios seems to have good suggestions- especially about Danube as the frontier.

  18. #118

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Ideas on East-Central Europe are up, next part: Balkans!

    Quote Originally Posted by Giorgios View Post
    Okay- as I tend to advise most mods on the Balkans due to Rhomano-phile tendencies!

    First and foremost, the frontier of the Bulgaria province should lie along the river Danube, and not intrude into Wallachia. The Danube was always the frontier of the area, under both Rhomanians (Byzantines) and Ottomans.

    Durazzo should be renamed to its Greek title "Dyrrachion"- the Latinised version of this is "Dyrrachium". It certainly shouldn't be the Italian "Durazzo", anyway.

    Athens was really not a very important city in the medieval era, though Corinth was. If you want another Greek city to replace Athens, I'd suggest Larisa- otherwise, just take it out, and get a new slot to "spend" on the Middle East somewhere. Western Anatolia would be my suggestion...

    Scopia should be replaced by Ochrid, the capital of the first Bulgarian Empire and a major city in the region.

    Sofia should get its Greek name of "Sardica".

    And here are two possible ones- swapping Arta for Nikopolis (both were important, Nikopolis more so in the 11th and 12th centuries, Arta afterward) and Adrianople for Philippopolis (again, for the early campaign, Philippopolis was more significant, for the late one, Adrianople was).

    Constantinople should certainly be a huge city, and Thessalonica should be a large one- it's a little known fact, but Thessalonica was likely the second largest city in early medieval Europe, larger even than Milan or Paris.
    I second Gogolometro's and Ichon's words, these are very useful suggestions indeed! (+rep, of course!)
    I already indicated my plans on Wallachia in the previous Part, so I agree with your idea on this. Also, I already changed Durazzo's name to Dyrrachium in my downloadable text updates (see OP) and I intend to keep it this way.
    Dropping Athens seems reasonable, although I don't really think it needs a replacement. At the same time, I think it's better to keep both Arta and Adrianople.
    Bringing in Ohrid (Lychnidus) also sounds good to me, although it would be a bit close to Dyrrachium then. As for Sofia, I renamed it to Sredets in my updates, but it's not relevant anyway as I intend to replace it with the more important Tarnovo.

  19. #119

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Ideas on East-Central Europe are up, next part: Balkans!

    Quote Originally Posted by Giorgios View Post
    Okay- as I tend to advise most mods on the Balkans due to Rhomano-phile tendencies!

    First and foremost, the frontier of the Bulgaria province should lie along the river Danube, and not intrude into Wallachia. The Danube was always the frontier of the area, under both Rhomanians (Byzantines) and Ottomans.

    Durazzo should be renamed to its Greek title "Dyrrachion"- the Latinised version of this is "Dyrrachium". It certainly shouldn't be the Italian "Durazzo", anyway.

    Athens was really not a very important city in the medieval era, though Corinth was. If you want another Greek city to replace Athens, I'd suggest Larisa- otherwise, just take it out, and get a new slot to "spend" on the Middle East somewhere. Western Anatolia would be my suggestion...

    Scopia should be replaced by Ochrid, the capital of the first Bulgarian Empire and a major city in the region.

    Sofia should get its Greek name of "Sardica".

    And here are two possible ones- swapping Arta for Nikopolis (both were important, Nikopolis more so in the 11th and 12th centuries, Arta afterward) and Adrianople for Philippopolis (again, for the early campaign, Philippopolis was more significant, for the late one, Adrianople was).

    Constantinople should certainly be a huge city, and Thessalonica should be a large one- it's a little known fact, but Thessalonica was likely the second largest city in early medieval Europe, larger even than Milan or Paris.
    Bellum Crucis has a feature (script) that can automatically change cities names according to the owner... I think it's a great idea to be implemented on SS too so Durazzo would be Durazzo if owned by venice and Dyrrachion if owned by byz....

  20. #120

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Ideas on East-Central Europe are up, next part: Balkans!

    That is cool but I'm for it only if it does less than a couple seconds extra turn time an average computer.

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