Page 2 of 215 FirstFirst 1234567891011122752102 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 4288

Thread: SSHIP - Original Thread (archived)

  1. #21
    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    3,338

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    That's why I suggest using the vanilla map instead of the current SS map. That way, it will be possible to add more regions to several kingdoms and increasing the survivability of certain factions.

  2. #22
    Suspended by Request
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    12,117

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    Imo, the best thing for SS map editing would be to remove the Far East. Probably make the cut-off point at Mosul and Tbilisi, remove Khwarezm and probably at least 10 - 15 regions in the east to create more slots for Europe. The SS map is too encompassing and spread out, imo.

  3. #23

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    Quote Originally Posted by St. Polycarpe View Post
    That's why I suggest using the vanilla map instead of the current SS map. That way, it will be possible to add more regions to several kingdoms and increasing the survivability of certain factions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Future Filmmaker View Post
    Imo, the best thing for SS map editing would be to remove the Far East. Probably make the cut-off point at Mosul and Tbilisi, remove Khwarezm and probably at least 10 - 15 regions in the east to create more slots for Europe. The SS map is too encompassing and spread out, imo.
    No, I'm not thinking about such a radical change yet, only about some reasonable adjustments.
    Also, let's face it, removing any starting faction would hardly be a popular choice among the players.

  4. #24
    Suspended by Request
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    12,117

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fair Prince View Post
    No, I'm not thinking about such a radical change yet, only about some reasonable adjustments.
    Also, let's face it, removing any starting faction would hardly be a popular choice among the players.
    Sure it would, but it also create excitement for the addition of another faction. My own preference is just for the Middle East, but not Central Asia, to be portrayed. To me its like including America, just doesn't 'fit'. It's all just opinion though.

  5. #25

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    All right, from now on I'll start posting my proposals on specific areas of the map.
    I welcome opinions and musings about them, but I'd also like to politely ask everyone to please try expressing themselves in a civilized manner and avoid any unnecessary flame wars if possible.

    Part 1: British Isles
    EDIT: see the first post for details!

  6. #26

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fair Prince View Post
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    All right, from now on I'll start posting my proposals on specific areas of the map.
    I welcome opinions and musings about them, but I'd also like to politely ask everyone to please try expressing themselves in a civilized manner and avoid any unnecessary flame wars if possible.

    Part 1: British Isles
    I believe the British regions are fairly good as they are, except for Galway in Ireland which could be sacrificed for a more important region. With a view on both the early and late campaigns as well, I don't think any English or Scottish regions should be removed, lowering their population at the start instead should be enough to represent their relatively low number of inhabitants at the time.

    FP proposal:
    Remove Galway (thanks to RollingWave for the idea)

    Region count status:

    +1 region slot, all happy so far!
    I would prefer to add one more region to Ireland, but this is impossible, so, removing Galway is from far the best thing to do

    We should remove so Rhodes (merging into Athens), Damietta (merging into Alexandria), Tayma (merging into Medina), Melilla (merging into Fes) and Uppsalla (merging into Nykoeping).

    In addition we should put two regions on the christian spain, because the Moors are so strong they can war into France without trouble in late the game.

    And we surelly have to add Orleans in the french regions, maybe changing Clermont for it.

    This should put +4 region's slots to the map.
    Last edited by Mbrabant; June 07, 2011 at 03:08 PM.

  7. #27

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    Bringing in the vanilla map is a horrible idea! Unless of course we extend Scandinavia up North, then it can be a true Europe mod (and add Iceland)
    Democracy is beautiful in theory; in practice it is a fallacy.

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=514102

  8. #28

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fair Prince View Post
    Part 1: British Isles
    With a view on both the early and late campaigns as well, I don't think any English or Scottish regions should be removed, lowering their population at the start instead should be enough to represent their relatively low number of inhabitants at the time.
    Well... what do you consider the late campaign? Because England doesn't recover its pre-plague population until late 1500s.

    Populations in 1100-1300 (roughly)

    British Isles- 4 million
    Italy- 10 million
    Spain- 15 Million
    France- 20 million
    Germany- 12 million(not including other possessions of HRE)
    Russia(modern area west or Urals but divided between Poland, Lithuania, and various principalities at the time- 22 million
    Scandinavia- 2-4 million depending how you count(IE- Denmark, Finland, islands included)
    Balkans/Greece- 6 million
    Anatolia 5 million (including Armenia/Georgia which add another 1-2 million) with 3 million along coasts (1-2 million in central and eastern Turkic parts of the region but still some large Greek cities and trade routes bringing grain when hinterlands lost to Turks).

    The Anatolian population was reduced by about 1/3 or more from wars and earthquakes from earlier Byzantine rule where height of population was 12 million under Byzantine control in 1000s when Byzantines ruled most of Anatolia, all of Greece, 1/3 of the Balkans(minus that era Bulgaria and Serbia, Crete, Cyprus, and parts of S Italy).

    Syria- 3.5 million(including modern Jordan, Israel, Lebanon, etc)
    Egypt- 3-6 million (Egypt was one of the hardest hit regions by the Plague, perhaps losing 2/3 of the population due to the plague and civil wars. Probably Egypt had over 5 million population before 1200 then Mamelukes introduced large agrarian and land reforms that swelled the population up to just under 7 million until 1340s when plague and several wars combined reduced population down to 3-4 million.

    Black Death reduced populations hugely but did not affect all areas equally. Reconquista in Spain reduced population over time from height in 1100 of 14-16 million by 1/4 down to 11 million due to wars and Muslims fleeing. Then plague hit but wasn't as virulent as in other areas. 100 Years War ravaged France population and also reduced it by about 1/6 then plagues reduced further. Much areas in Russia was depopulated by Mongol invasions.

    In 1400s Poland and Germany had gained largely at the expense of the rest of Europe as their homelands were mostly free from war and not the most terribly ravaged by the Plague. England was hit hard by plagues and lost possessions in France losing everything gained in first parts of the 100 years war while Scotland and Wales revolted. By 1500 England had re-established control and was well organized politically and mostly at peace within its borders which led to rapidly growing population without further internal disturbances until Jacobite wars, meanwhile reformation was rattling HRE and eventually depopulated much of Germany and central Europe while France was more consumed in Italy and other southern regions.

    So in the game Britain starts with much less population than most other 'regions' and only by the very end of the campaign era (1500s) is the population expanding rapidly compared to the rest of Europe.

    England is historically about 1/5th population of France for most of the period. Right now in game its about 2/3. Given that England did have impact disproportionate compared to its population giving it about 1/4 to 1/3 of France (which would be between 5-6 regions still seems low, RW gave isles 7 regions compared to starting 11 in last version of SS. If you leave England with 10 regions that would mean France should have at minimum 30 to reflect it any where near accurately. Which is not going to happen I think you'll agree. England with 7 region leaves France with 21 regions to have about historically accurate ratios and using those as basis would give Scandinavia also about 7 regions, Italy 11 regions, Spain 15 regions, etc.

    Right now France has 14-18 depending how you count low countries and Metz etc. Spain has 15, Italy 11...

    France is worst off right now while England and Scandinavia(with 12) gain hugely in total unhistoric fashion. HRE is the other faction which losses the most with Scandinavia and England hogging the regions.

    It doesn't make sense to include every region that is famous if it actually wasn't that populated or important for a long period. IE- huge number of at times important Italian city states are left out but really only Flanders is screwed as the rest despite having times of influence did not have lasting influence.

    Its important to remember that in the 100 years war England was allied with Burgundy and often used Flemish and other mercenaries to add manpower it wasn't able to supply on its own. I think the mechanics of the game reflect that well enough with England being able to have much higher trade income and mass produce longbowmen which can devastate anything France makes except heavy cavalry.

  9. #29

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichon View Post
    Well... what do you consider the late campaign? Because England doesn't recover its pre-plague population until late 1500s.

    Populations in 1100-1300 (roughly)

    British Isles- 4 million
    Italy- 10 million
    Spain- 15 Million
    France- 20 million
    Germany- 12 million(not including other possessions of HRE)
    Russia(modern area west or Urals but divided between Poland, Lithuania, and various principalities at the time- 22 million
    Scandinavia- 2-4 million depending how you count(IE- Denmark, Finland, islands included)
    Balkans/Greece- 6 million
    Anatolia 5 million (including Armenia/Georgia which add another 1-2 million) with 3 million along coasts (1-2 million in central and eastern Turkic parts of the region but still some large Greek cities and trade routes bringing grain when hinterlands lost to Turks).

    The Anatolian population was reduced by about 1/3 or more from wars and earthquakes from earlier Byzantine rule where height of population was 12 million under Byzantine control in 1000s when Byzantines ruled most of Anatolia, all of Greece, 1/3 of the Balkans(minus that era Bulgaria and Serbia, Crete, Cyprus, and parts of S Italy).

    Syria- 3.5 million(including modern Jordan, Israel, Lebanon, etc)
    Egypt- 3-6 million (Egypt was one of the hardest hit regions by the Plague, perhaps losing 2/3 of the population due to the plague and civil wars. Probably Egypt had over 5 million population before 1200 then Mamelukes introduced large agrarian and land reforms that swelled the population up to just under 7 million until 1340s when plague and several wars combined reduced population down to 3-4 million.
    Thanks for this excellent list mate, that's exactly what I needed!
    I clearly see that the British Isles wasn't as densely populated as France for example, but I still believe their regions should not be touched. Instead, as I mentioned before, I'd lower the population of the British settlements and raise it in other countries, and would also insert some new regions where needed.
    Granted, factions like France would then start with a massive population advantage, but that's what historical accuracy is about after all!

  10. #30

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    All right, let's see the Scandinavian area this time!

    Part 2: Scandinavia

    EDIT: see the first post for details!

  11. #31
    Ottheinrich's Avatar Libertus
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Near the Rhine (Mainz currently)
    Posts
    69

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fair Prince View Post

    FP proposal:
    Ribe to replace Arhus (thanks to RollingWave for the idea)
    Sigtuna to replace Uppsala (thanks to preachercheeze)
    Remove Nyköping (thanks to RW)
    Remove Visby
    Personly, I would keep Visby, since it was an rather important tradeport and was the casus belli for some wars. Maybe remove Skara instead? Doesn't seem as important to me (yet, the little knowledge I do have about Skara is from the very short article on Wikipedia, so I could be mistaken about Skara and its importance in Medieval times ).

  12. #32

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    Well Norway with 3 regions seems way overrepresented to me. I would drop Eikundersund at least. Dropping Skara also seems good idea and I have no problem your other proposals as while I enjoy Visby as human player it is rarely important in my games and AI hardly ever does much with it.

  13. #33

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichon View Post
    Well Norway with 3 regions seems way overrepresented to me. I would drop Eikundersund at least. Dropping Skara also seems good idea and I have no problem your other proposals as while I enjoy Visby as human player it is rarely important in my games and AI hardly ever does much with it.
    After a second thought, I accept that Eikundarsund should be removed but I'd like to keep Skara as it serves as an important buffer region between Norway and Denmark, also giving them some chance to expand early in the game. Visby is not important enough to stay on the map in my opinion.

    I'm gonna update my previous post with my new proposals.

  14. #34

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fair Prince View Post
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    After a second thought, I accept that Eikundarsund should be removed but I'd like to keep Skara as it serves as an important buffer region between Norway and Denmark, also giving them some chance to expand early in the game. Visby is not important enough to stay on the map in my opinion.

    I'm gonna update my previous post with my new proposals.
    I would like to keep Visby, since it was a very important trade post. And by putting Visby in Rus' objectives, you ensure that they will search an baltic shore port, and also they will expand to there.

    Visby was also the main city of the Hanseatic League. This should make it one of the most important cities in Europe on the Medieval times. Visby just can't be excluded.

  15. #35

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    Lubeck, Bruges, Novgorod, and London were the main trading cities along with Visby but Visby was a trading center(ie- not much more than exchange place, never a large city grew there) and was eclipsed as the other trade cities of the league grew larger and new cities like Danzig became quite important. So I don't mind dropping Visby as more important cities are already not included and it was never more important than as the trade center while many of the other regions had important titles or populations in addition to their trade status.

  16. #36

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichon View Post
    So I don't mind dropping Visby as more important cities are already not included and it was never more important than as the trade center while many of the other regions had important titles or populations in addition to their trade status.
    That's the point mate, thanks for agreeing with me.
    The next part will be about Iberia, I welcome ideas on how to better it!

  17. #37

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    Santiago de Compostela surely has to be in SS.
    Just Léon having the pilgrimage bonus is odd.

    Also the adition of another Portuguese city, i would agree to Coimbra, as a central city and learning centre. But Coimbra was not founded until late 1200. But surely Coimbra is an strategic point to Portugal.
    Also, Oviedo, on Spain, should be on Stainless Steel too, due to being the capital of the Principality of Asturias (also this could be the region name "Asturias" and the title to the general "Prince of Asturias"). Asturias was the kingdom that Castille and León born from. Not having an asturian city is just unfair.
    This would keep the Moors on Iberia.

    Also, we have to do something about the Sicilians. In my games the keep expanding to North Africa and beating the Moors from behind. This is so odd, i cant even imagine. We have to put something on Italy to slow down the Sicilians, since the east-north african cities are easy to conquer, and the Moors are too far from it.

  18. #38

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    Sorry for the delay folks, but I'm very busy these days - I'll continue with Iberia once I got some free time, hopefully next week.

  19. #39
    RollingWave's Avatar Praepositus
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Taiwan
    Posts
    5,069

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    Iberia : in 1100, Andalusia was the probably the most prosperous in Europe, at least it was very much comparible with Northern Italy, with it's bigger cites easily dwarfing anything else outside of Byznatium in Europe.

    The Southern Iberia were generally more populated, but the North wasn't too badly off either. as the time went out Andalusia declined from the Reconquista and the decline / destruction of some of it's irrigation and the silting up of some of the rivers, but as a whole the Iberian region remained relatively prosperous compare to most other places in Europe during the entire Medieval era. with it's real decline comming after it's massive boom of the age of discovery.

    In short, the current Iberia setup in SS isn't too terrible, the real omision is really the Badajoz / Sevilla merger, both city needs to be there. in the context of the entire Medieval era Sevilla was the single most prosperous city in the entire Ibera, as Cordoba suffered most dramatically of all the cities in terms of decline. while Badajoz was a major city as well and an important frontier zone between Spain and Portugal.

    Another potential add is Santiago. Salamanca is actually the most blah city in terms of relavence .. in 1100 it was really a devastated wasteland just begining to be rebuild. it wasn't irrelavant in the middle ages but there's half a dozen comparible cities within Northern or Southern Iberia during that span that isn't there. while Santiago reflects a more obvious region and political / religious important site.

    So in short, Iberia is relatively strait forward.


    Must add: Sevilla - Badajoz Split

    Highly recommandable add : Santiago

    recommandable remove: Salamanca

    Also, the position of Granada and Badajoz is all wrong, Granada is on the northern side of the mountain and Badajoz is on the left side of the bank. the position of Cordoba is also somewhat questionable though not off by that much.

    Removing Salamanca creates a more interesting situation in Iberia I guess.. since it means the Moors / Castilla front will now be completely concentrated on the Toledo front, which is actually rather realistic, right now Moors tend to just skip Toledo and go Badajoz -> Salamanca -> Leon and then the Spaniards are screwed, this isn't really in line with reality, the Almohad / Almoravid campaigns almost always had Toledo as the primary strategic goal.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    This is a modern demographic distribution of Spain, the only real difference between now and then is two places really.

    A. Corodba declined, though it's area remain pretty highly populated.

    B. Toledo saw an even more massive decline, but that was because the Kingdom eventually moved it's capital from Toledo to Madrid in 1561 which really sucked up most of it's population big time.
    Last edited by RollingWave; June 29, 2011 at 03:55 AM.
    1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....

  20. #40
    el Cid's Avatar Campidoctor
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    1,645

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    I very much agree on the post above. Spain is indeed well represented, but some additions need to be made.
    I have one suggestion for France (not yet proposed I know), why not add Avignon? Avignon was an important city, as it was home to many popes and antipopes in the Middle Ages. It might make that region too crowded though. I would however take away Clermont, as it serves no real purpose.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •