SSHIP - Original Thread (archived)

[Lifthrasir]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I'm wondering whether or not this map version is compatible alongside BGR V?

No, it's not. BGR V is made for Late Era and SSMAP for Early Era.

@ Magicuboïde, have you added only the ERE units or all units from Caudillo87?

[Ichon]

I've updated Rasic's great efforts to work with the current version of SSMAP. I also have edited in many BC units. One thing unique about this is I've weaved them somewhat seamlessly into the armor progression, so units still progress. In some cases they start vanilla and end up BC, in others it's the opposite. I just did what I thought looked best .
(note: occasionally I did away with vanilla textures and eschewed the visual armor progression)

This avoids that "bright yellow" look of the vanilla Fatimid textures and is more in line with the BC textures.

I will definitely take a look at this first chance I get- BC units with armor progression in the way you described has occurred to me before but never had time to pursue it. Thanks for putting up the DL of your integration and I'd just like to thank BC team officially on this thread since I've found their work not only useful as an inspiration but it seems more often to be part of SSMAP as well.

Great work guys. I say bring in both the Abbasids and Zengids and take out Genoa and Pisa. It's unrealistic to see the latter forming any sort of geographic empire. Instead they should just be well developed and wealthy cities with large garrisons.

Well my vote went to taking out Genoa and Khwarezmians but I agree in a limited way with you. Venice obviously due to the 4th Crusade dominated a large land empire while Genoa eventually through its colonies dominated a significant area as well.

I think what is important not to forget is Pisan expeditions to Spain, N Africa, Crusades, and Egypt where their fleets and marines assisted other nations armies were key to many Catholic successes between 1000 and 1300. Pisa also controlled Sardinia, Corsica, and various colonies around the Mediterranean. If not for the rivalry with Genoa and a small hinterland that limited the size of Pisan population, Pisa would likely have controlled even more land. Either way, with Venice and Sicily present Italy needs a 3rd power for balance. I'm not convinced it needs a 4th power as currently. I've had fun in a couple campaigns with a very busy Italy but under AI instead of fighting each other both expand outside of Italy.

[MagicCuboid]

you're welcome Ichon, what I did was little! The BC textures/models have indeed always been a great accomplishment, and at such an early stage in the game's modding history too. As for LordCaudillo's models, I believe them to be some of the finest new works that I've seen.

I should mention here and I will edit the post, that I have not touched any Turkish units just yet. I hastily attempted to replace many Turkish faction units but I got a CTD. If there is interest, I will happily finish the work (as well as edit the file paths so the egyptian textures I mentioned will need not be moved)...

As far as the topic at hand, I wonder about the campaign balance if we removed both Genoa AND Pisa... Those northern cities are some of the jewels of Europe. I believe one or the other must occupy that area to put a check on the HRE and Venice, let alone the *gasp* Papal States. Rome loves to grab adjacent rebel territories, and it just doesn't play well for any other Catholic factions.

That said, I voted to remove Genoa and add in the Abbasids, but I've changed my mind to Zangids since then. Genoa almost always expands (if not crusades...) directly into the HRE in my games. While it makes sense for Genoa to hate the HRE, it's jarringly a-historical for them to expand into Germany. I have in fact never seen Genoa even attempt to make anything short of a European conquest.

Pisa, on the other hand, makes some very interesting moves. They frequently attack North Africa to apply some pressure to the Moors, and they often lay claim to Sardinia, Corsica, and that other island east of Spain. It's fun to have a maritime power in the western Mediterranean.

Although the Abbasids are, I think, more familiar and held more power *overall* than the Zangids, the idea of roleplaying Nur-ad-Din's achievements and morph them into Salah ad-Din conquering Egypt sounds much more fun than simply "reviving the Abbasid Caliphate." Besides, I think the Zangids would have more interesting units than the Abbasids.

[Lord Blackfyre]

Were I playing the faction then I think I would prefer to play as the abbasids, I think the reviving a huge empire from almost nothing is very appealing. However I rarely play an Islamic faction and I think the zengids would provide better map balance for the whole region. Thus making my catholic or orthodox campaign better.

I would not be opposed to the removal of the kwarzemians and their roster incorporated into the Turks, both for balance and historical reasons, the seljuks had Persian troops historically and in 1132 they didn't exist if I remember correctly, plus they get instantly curb stomped by the Mongols and had almost no lasting effect on history.

[Slaytaninc]

My vote (Ignoring what I voted on in the poll) is to take out Genoa and the Khwarezmians, and add in the Zengids and Pisa. I don't know where that puts us with faction numbers, but currently that seems the best idea.

I also don't think Lithuania should be a faction so early on, but I know taking them out might hurt the perception of this submod.

[GiddeeUpp]

Lith is a completely unique faction and im totally against removing them. You could get rid of Khwarez i suppose, with the new update they've become essentially eliminated anyways.

[nomercysniper]

Are there any alternate download links, as I love the look of this, but cant download it from mediafire

[MagicCuboid]

Can't download from mediafire? Why not? Here's a temporary download link of Beta 6. Hopefully it's okay with the team that I host it for you, but I'll take it down if they ask or once you're all set, nomercy.

[Fair Prince]

I've updated Rasic's great efforts to work with the current version of SSMAP. I also have edited in many BC units*. One thing unique about this is I've weaved them somewhat seamlessly into the armor progression, so units still progress. In some cases they start vanilla and end up BC, in others it's the opposite. I just did what I thought looked best .
(note: occasionally I did away with vanilla textures and eschewed the visual armor progression)
*I have yet to touch the Turkish roster even though I believe it is in the most need of BC units. Will complete this week and re-upload.

I added a link to the first post as well as included you in the list of contributors - excellent job mate, a huge thanks goes to you for your efforts!

[Studpuffin]

Kwarezm is basically taken out of the game? They almost always kick ass in my games, not stopping until all of Iran, Mesopotamia, Arabia, and Egypt are under their control. I'm not sure what is meant by them having already been 'essentially taken out'.

[nomercysniper]

many many thanks magicube! and it seems to be my pc.. whenever i click on download, it refreshes and asks for authorisation, then after i put it in, it keeps refreshing the download page

[Trailhog250]

Though SS is one of my favorite M2TW mods second only to TATW, I have often felt the map was a bit 'stretched'. (some pointless settlements allowing too much $ to build up)

This looks interesting.. Though I currently have no time for SS my next campaign will be with this mod.

[MagicCuboid]

I added a link to the first post as well as included you in the list of contributors - excellent job mate, a huge thanks goes to you for your efforts!

I'm honored! Thank you Fair Prince. To live up to this recognition I have made my mini-mod much more complete! See post for details!

[CostantinoXI]

as personal opinion i wouldn't add Abbasids (in this period they are ghosts of themselves).
I'm in favor of Zengids, but instead of deleting Pisa or Genoa, which are very important in this period, I would prefer to eliminate the Kwarezmians, whose excessive expansion destroys the Turks and the Cumans.
In this way it is possible to restrict map and add in more territories for the Crusaders (Krak de Chevaliers, Tortosa, Ascalon) or Russian factions.

Crusader states are very weak, are unplayable when they are used by the human player and immediately disappear when they are used by the computer.
Moreover, the addition of a new Islamic faction and its contribution to the jihad would make ridiculous the presence of the Crusaders, because they aren't already able to resist (human player and computer) to a jihad consists of Moors,Turks, Kwarezmians and Fatimids, imagine if you add Zengids without eliminate another islamic faction!

[Lord Blackfyre]

What AI are you using to make the crusader states unplayable? Sure you need to be very careful with your first 5 or so turns but once you get an alliance with either fatamids or Turks it's smooth sailing, your troops outclass any of the surrounding armies early on, and you control very wealthy lands so economy should be flying once you get rid of those expensive mercenary troops. Don't just disband them though, they may aswell die for a purpose

[Ichon]

as personal opinion i wouldn't add Abbasids (in this period they are ghosts of themselves).
I'm in favor of Zengids, but instead of deleting Pisa or Genoa, which are very important in this period, I would prefer to eliminate the Kwarezmians, whose excessive expansion destroys the Turks and the Cumans.
In this way it is possible to restrict map and add in more territories for the Crusaders (Krak de Chevaliers, Tortosa, Ascalon) or Russian factions.

Crusader states are very weak, are unplayable when they are used by the human player and immediately disappear when they are used by the computer.
Moreover, the addition of a new Islamic faction and its contribution to the jihad would make ridiculous the presence of the Crusaders, because they aren't already able to resist (human player and computer) to a jihad consists of Moors,Turks, Kwarezmians and Fatimids, imagine if you add Zengids without eliminate another islamic faction!

Have you played SSMAP? Because I've never seen AI CS die quickly. If anything it expands much more than historically. Otherwise the Jihad is a good point but for me its the opposite, Jihads are much weaker than Crusades now because so much fewer Muslim factions. I am not in favor of adding more regions to Levant at all. Genoa was important but on the scale of a full faction it was not really doing much until 1300s.

[Studpuffin]

What I tend to see is quick expansion by the Crusaders, then they eventually get taken over usually by the Egyptians, but it takes a heck of a long time for that to happen and usually Egypt is on the ropes for most of that time until a jihad takes Jerusalem. Honestly, I'd say take out Genoa and Pisa both! Everyone agrees they do weird things to their game, and we'd all like to see more islamic factions.

[Ichon]

What I tend to see is quick expansion by the Crusaders, then they eventually get taken over usually by the Egyptians, but it takes a heck of a long time for that to happen and usually Egypt is on the ropes for most of that time until a jihad takes Jerusalem. Honestly, I'd say take out Genoa and Pisa both! Everyone agrees they do weird things to their game, and we'd all like to see more islamic factions.

Yes the couple campaigns I played over 100 turns, CS managed to hold out into the 1240s which is excellent. Historically most of their cities aside from Acre and Nicosia fell much earlier so I doubt we will ever manage to get CS to reliably hold out until 1291 but important to me is at least into 1220s so Mongols have time to show and upset the hierarchy of power in the east. In base SS currently the CS rarely lasts past 1150 without help from player. Also Fatamids and Zengids would likely come into conflict especially if starting relations between Farimids and CS are ok while relations between rest are poor.

[MagicCuboid]

Yes the couple campaigns I played over 100 turns, CS managed to hold out into the 1240s which is excellent. Historically most of their cities aside from Acre and Nicosia fell much earlier so I doubt we will ever manage to get CS to reliably hold out until 1291 but important to me is at least into 1220s so Mongols have time to show and upset the hierarchy of power in the east. In base SS currently the CS rarely lasts past 1150 without help from player. Also Fatamids and Zengids would likely come into conflict especially if starting relations between Farimids and CS are ok while relations between rest are poor.

Yes, I have similar experience with the CS. I've never seen them get crushed any earlier than the Mongols, for sure. This is great because it also allows players in the West reasonable time to gather enough stability at home so that they can send a crusade of their own and gift the winnings to CS.

For Islamic faction balance: I would love for the Fatimids to get pushed around more. The Ayyubid Sultanate is, I think, the major casualty in having a starting date of 1130 and I think having the Zengids is a great compromise. Encouraging a Zengid/Fatimid war would not only be historically accurate, but it would make the whole area far more interesting as finally the Crusaders would have an immediate and viable choice of who to support. Conversely I feel like the Abbasids were just enjoying Baghdad and waiting for Genghis Khan to steamroll them... correct me if I'm wrong?

[Slaytaninc]

Having to assist the CS is semi-historical though, so it's not too bad.