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Thread: SSHIP - Original Thread (archived)

  1. #181

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Eastern Europe proposals posted, next up: Steppes!

    Khlynov- represented by PSF
    Kazan- hard to say... could be a castle or PSF but without very strong rebels it seems just to make the Rus or Mongols much stronger as Bulgars aren't a faction that caused Rus problems and then Tartars from Golden Horde. Bulgars maybe have enough representation with just Bulgar or Bilyar.
    Yelabuga- no especially if Kazan is included but both should probably be PSF.
    Bulgar- yes, as a small town or wooden castle
    Jaiksk- probably not but depends if Embi is included or something else- definitely one of the regions which could be merged but could be the capitol of the merged regions possibly.
    Embi- probably not but depends if Jaiksk is included or something else- definitely one of the regions which could be merged but could be the capitol of the merged regions possibly.
    Azaq- yes, under Cuman control or start as relatively lightly held rebels as Kipchaks nominally were in charge but usually in tribal alliance with Cumans by this point or even the same tribe possibly.
    Sarkel- yes, under rebel or Cuman rule.
    Astrakhan- name changed to Atil as Astrakhan was not positively established until later and its unclear when Atil was completely abandoned. There was significant settlement in this area though.
    Tmutarakan- also in as either Cuman or rebel... probably all these possible Cuman regions should start under Cuman rule since otherwise it doesn't leave them many regions to be a threat and they will lose their NE regions.

    Saqsin is also a potential for the steppes as it was probably part of a long chain of cities on the lower Volga in the same vicinity. It would be directly west of Sarkel and start as a large town.

    I would maybe add Maghas on the north side of the Caucus as a small castle with a full stack of rebels to represent Alania which King David the Builder supposedly visited and which records exists of dynastic marriage between Byzantines, Georgia, Rus, and Kipchaks indicating they were powerful enough to probably get some representation on the map. That area of the map is also hugely blank right now.

    Also consider Derbent- it was a quite large city for this period and controlled the Caucus terminus of the silk road trade route. It is known to have paid tribute to Khazars and Georgia and probably Cumans or Alans so should probably start rebel but without a huge garrison- just 3/4 a stack or 1 stack. It had quite strong system of fortification guarding from the coast of the Caspian to the Caucuses opposite the this- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Wall_of_Gorgan

    It is difficult to see how to portray Cumans and others as there are few urban centers that they probably controlled in 1100. That might leave Cumans quite weak but it also depends how we want to portray such factions. Cumans were paid tribute by many of the cities in the area however and could start as if those cities were under their control.

  2. #182
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    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Eastern Europe proposals posted, next up: Steppes!

    To remove Moscow and leave Khlynov, Kazan, Yelabuga, Jaiksk, Embi, Azaq, Astrakhan - would be a fail of this project, lol )
    All this regions didn't exist in early era or were completely insignificant.
    Cumans shouldn't exist in late era. And all the more this area shouldn't be represented with this plenty of regions in early era.

    All what was meaningful: Bulgar, Sarkel and Tmutarakan.

  3. #183

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Eastern Europe proposals posted, next up: Steppes!

    Quote Originally Posted by ITC View Post
    To remove Moscow and leave Khlynov, Kazan, Yelabuga, Jaiksk, Embi, Azaq, Astrakhan - would be a fail of this project, lol )
    All this regions didn't exist in early era or were completely insignificant.
    Cumans shouldn't exist in late era. And all the more this area shouldn't be represented with this plenty of regions in early era.

    All what was meaningful: Bulgar, Sarkel and Tmutarakan.
    Cumans relied less on towns than Rus though they did have some under their control. So its hard to say they should only have regions where its been positively established there was a large town. I think Atil was probably mostly destroyed as Cumans moved west but there were alot of population in the lower Volga area which didn't all die or migrate away. They had dealt with steppe peoples for centuries. Astrakhan wasn't established until much later so having some region around that area is correct. Atil as the capitol is just due to there isn't much other records of towns from that era and Atil is fairly close. It might have lingered on as a small town under Cumans and been finally ended when Cumans began focusing more on the west or it might have been rebuilt as Saqsin.

    Pechenegs which were accounted a smaller group than the Cumans had probably about 1 million in population at least according to Byzantine sources- Cumans/Kipchaks probably had close to twice that seeing how many lands they entered or fought with though its pretty much a guess. 2 million should give them 3-5 regions at least. Also to be much threat to Rus they deserve that much and more since Rus are having around 9-12. Also keep in mind that while Cumans might have had a bit less than 2 million actually in that group they had allied tribes and some towns and regions that basically functioned as their vassals contributing troops etc similar to how Mongols did it later.

    Having Saqsin further up the Volga from Atil is simply a guess. The two cities might be the same by different names or be different cities but if only 1 is included then Maghas or Derbent should certainly be included as they were both important cities in 1100s and right now the map is completely blank there. It would also give the Cumans and Turks something to fight over instead of the Cumans squeezed between K-Shah, Seljuks, Rus, and Byzantines.

  4. #184
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    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Eastern Europe proposals posted, next up: Steppes!

    Pechenegs 1 million? Ou....
    Cumans ~ 2 millions?

    All Rus population was ~ 5-6 millions up to Mongol invasion.
    Cumans 2 million - impossible. They should eat out all the grass of the Steppe and eat each other then.

    Added after research:
    Archeologist Svetlana Pletneva examined this question.
    Quantity of regular cuman armies was ~ 4-8k.
    During a massive campaigns - 8-9k

    In Rus chronicle (Ipat'evskaya), said that in the campaign on the Chernigov in 1060, took part 12k cuman warriors. In 1128 - 7 k.
    In 1158 cuman Khan led a 20k detachment to help Kievan Duke Izyaslav Davidovich.

    As a result of investigation, Pletneva states a supposition that in the second part of XII cent. Cumans had ~ 12 of tribal formations with total population ~ 500-600k. (~ 100-200 k of potential military human resources)
    Last edited by ITC; July 18, 2011 at 03:35 PM.

  5. #185

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Eastern Europe proposals posted, next up: Steppes!

    I included all the regions that were vassals as well which I clearly stated since those regions contributed warriors. Just like actual Mongols were probably never more than 1 million they were able to raise armies over over 100,000 from vassals.

    The Pechengs that were pushed west by Cumans/Kipchaks were supposedly raiding Byzantines and Bulgaria with armies of 30,000 so even if you take that with a grain of salt and figure its 4x the real numbers they had 3 such armies in the field during 1 campaign season though those armies were probably joined by Magyars and some other tribes. That would be about 22,000 mounted and mostly light cavalry.

    Cumans might only field 10k in a major campaign against the Rus but they often had 2 or more such campaigns going simultaneously on different fronts. Caucuses, Europe, Rus, K-Shah, and the Turkic tribes in the E-NE plus the warriors who stayed home to guard against tribal rivalries etc.

    EDIT- out of curiosity where do you stand on the numbers of Rus that participated in the battle of Kalka River? So I know what standard you are using. Population estimates are notoriously tricky and for the Rus which have few records its hard but for the steppe areas its basically guesses based on army sizes compared to army size estimates from same or similar sources (almost always Byzantines) further west where the population estimates are a bit more reliable due to better records and more archeological evidence.

    Also the best guesses I have heard for Mongols is about 500,000- 700,000 actual Mongols that formed the basis for the expansion. Of that perhaps 40,000 could be raised as warriors. If you figure that is roughly 5% of the population for Cumans to have 20,000 in the field then they could be about half that number- or 350,000 actual Cumans/Kipchaks. Areas they ruled would easily contain another 1.5 million considering Volga to the Danube. So 1-2 million is the range I used which is obviously very broad.
    Last edited by Ichon; July 18, 2011 at 05:39 PM.

  6. #186
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    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Eastern Europe proposals posted, next up: Steppes!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichon View Post
    Areas they ruled would easily contain another 1.5 million considering Volga to the Danube. So 1-2 million is the range I used which is obviously very broad.
    That's the finish. No comments.
    It seems you know better then the experts who explored the subject all their life.
    I am off the discussion.

    Guys, if you make a map relying on such a guesswork... poor SS.
    Last edited by ITC; July 18, 2011 at 05:48 PM.

  7. #187

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Eastern Europe proposals posted, next up: Steppes!

    Quote Originally Posted by ITC View Post
    That's the finish. No comments.
    It seems you know better then the experts who explored the subject all their life.
    I am off the discussion.

    Guys, if you make a map relying on such a guesswork... poor SS.
    So are you an expert then? I never claimed to be and didn't call you ignorant for disagreeing how much Kiev had fallen or not in 1100s.

    I am suspicious of your claims since you've made numerous comments on Cumans etc being unimportant or nothing much compared to the Rus. Which from a broad historical standpoint is obviously BS since Cumans were involved with many more places and events of neighbors than the Rus were but on a cultural point is valid since Cumans aren't really around anymore but Russians still are.

    I also made my bias clear in several different map discussion threads... that I believe most historical estimates of population are on the low side. Not going crazy and saying France in 1200 had a population of 30 million but if the general consensus of most historians is France is 20 million I am going 10-20% higher at most.

    So far you have accused me of several things you imagined. I don't know if its because you have trouble understanding the way I am writing as English isn't your first language or purposely misunderstanding to try and prove your points. I can only read English and German sources but there is still alot of information in those languages.

    You make alot of claims but so far only produced wiki sources. I'll take Caesar Clivus word over yours any day. At least I've given the titles of some books where I am getting the information. Not just reading wiki. Obviously I don't read Russian so there are sources I'm not familiar with but I am not as trusting of any Russian sources older than 2000 since there was a large political pressure that certain conclusions be reached.
    Last edited by Ichon; July 18, 2011 at 06:01 PM.

  8. #188
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    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Eastern Europe proposals posted, next up: Steppes!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichon View Post
    So are you an expert then?
    It seems you are reading only your posts. I gave you a link to an expert on which studies my answer to you is based. THIS POST IS HERE

    Here is she.

    I will post here her books, so may be you'll notice.

    During the 50 years of her scientific effort, these books were publicated.
    I don't want to translate the titles.
    «От кочевий к городам. Салтово-маяцкая культура» (1967)
    «Древности черных клобуков» (1973)
    "Половецкие каменные изваяния " (1974)
    «Хазары» [1] (1976), (1986)
    «Кочевники средневековья. Поиски исторических закономерностей» (1982)
    «На славяно-хазарском пограничье. Дмитриевский археологический комплекс» (1989)
    «Печенеги и гузы на Нижнем Дону (по материалам кочевнического могильника у Саркела-Белой Вежи)» (1990)
    «Половцы» [2] (1990)
    «Саркел и „Шелковый путь“ (1996)
    „На северных рубежах Хазарского каганата. Маяцкое поселение“ (1998)
    „Очерки хазарской археологии“ (1999), (2000)
    „Кочевники южнорусских степей в эпоху средневековья. IV—XIII века“ (2003)
    „Древнерусский город в кочевой степи: историко-стратиграфическое исследование“ (2006)
    But of cause, don't mind. She didn't get the point. Your guesswork is better.
    Last edited by ITC; July 18, 2011 at 06:20 PM.

  9. #189

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Eastern Europe proposals posted, next up: Steppes!

    Guys, please don't take it too seriously... It's nice that you want to back up your arguments, but don't forget that in the end we only need to decide which regions should be kept or removed. We might return here later to discuss population and settlement sizes, but first we need to agree on the regions so our map designer can finally start his work.

    With that in mind, here are some initial thoughts from me: at least half of the given settlements should go, with only Bolghar, Azaq, Sarkel and Tmutarakan being safe. Either one of Khlynov or Kazan and Jaiksk or Embi should be dropped, creating two very big regions as a result. Yelabuga also looks a bit odd, but unfortunately there aren't any suitable replacements. On the other hand, adding Derbent sounds good, while changing Astrakhan to Saqsin also makes sense to me.

  10. #190

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Eastern Europe proposals posted, next up: Steppes!

    Yes basically I don't believe you. I already said I don't read anything besides English and German well enough to want to debate it. I can use Google translate but everything I read doesn't make me trust any more. Her mentor was accused by Soviets and he then changed his conclusions to say that steppe peoples had no lasting influence on the Rus. She on the other hand was awarded numerous prizes by Soviets. I don't say all her research is junk but it is more suspect. Especially since much of it disagrees with what I've read and the sources I've given. I'm not an expert but I can show you expert opinions disagreeing with her as you have presented her theories from numerous sources. I would usually prefer to trust local expert but in this case the fact she is local and did majority of her work under Soviets does make me question her conclusions.

    If I could find a complete work of hers translated or posted online where I could use Google translate it would be better. As it is I can only find excerpts and going from what you've said who has presumably read all her work. Since I don't trust you due to comments disparaging any other cultures could have contributed to the Rus if that is her conclusions too I don't agree. If you just put that bias into her words and present it like that then maybe its fine. The information I did find as I mentioned above makes me skeptical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fair Prince View Post
    Guys, please don't take it too seriously... It's nice that you want to back up your arguments, but don't forget that in the end we only need to decide which regions should be kept or removed. We might return here later to discuss population and settlement sizes, but first we need to agree on the regions so our map designer can finally start his work.

    With that in mind, here are some initial thoughts from me: at least half of the given settlements should go, with only Bolghar, Azaq, Sarkel and Tmutarakan being safe. Either one of Khlynov or Kazan and Jaiksk or Embi should be dropped, creating two very big regions as a result. Yelabuga also looks a bit odd, but unfortunately there aren't any suitable replacements. On the other hand, adding Derbent sounds good, while changing Astrakhan to Saqsin also makes sense to me.
    Well I don't mind a little debate but I get annoyed when people find 1 'expert' who agrees with what they say and then dismisses all the others. Reminds me of the climate change debate. Sure many scientists have been wrong en masse before but when a substantial number don't disagree with the basic premise but only have skepticism about the conclusions and there are only a couple out in left field questioning even the premises... it does make you wonder. In actual science that is a good thing as there should always be someone questioning the consensus. In matters like history there is always going to be bias so nothing much more can be achieved accept to move on. If the skeptics have an argument with merit the clamor grows louder. More often than not when the skeptics pass away new ones arise challenging a different premise.

    Back to the topic- so you plan on keeping 2 regions in the NE? Yelabuga and then only drop 2 more? Well we need to drop more region to keep under 199 I am pretty sure and this is a good place to drop. I would say just make 1 massive region in the NE .
    Last edited by Ichon; July 18, 2011 at 07:34 PM.

  11. #191

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Eastern Europe proposals posted, next up: Steppes!

    Looks like we have made it through this heated debate, so here goes my proposals folks!

    Part 11: Steppes

    EDIT: see the first post for details!

  12. #192

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Steppes done, next part: Anatolia!

    The next Part is gonna deal with Anatolia with the Georgian area also included - here are the related settlements, in West-East direction:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Canakkale
    Smyrna
    Rhodes
    Nicaea
    Iconium
    Ankara
    Nicosia*
    Sinop
    Caesarea
    Adana
    Trebizond
    Diyarbakir
    Kutaisi
    Tbilisi
    Yerevan

    *Update: Nicosia is also to be discussed in this Part.
    I also inserted two maps below that might be useful:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    I've received some good suggestions from Halavar in the SSHCP thread which I already accepted and would like to keep them - for more info, see this post.

  13. #193

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Steppes done, next part: Anatolia!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fair Prince View Post
    The next Part is gonna deal with Anatolia with the Georgian area also included - here are the related settlements, in West-East direction:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Canakkale
    Smyrna
    Rhodes
    Nicaea
    Iconium
    Ankara
    Nicosia*
    Sinop
    Caesarea
    Adana
    Trebizond
    Diyarbakir
    Kutaisi
    Tbilisi
    Yerevan

    *Update: Nicosia is also to be discussed in this Part.
    I also inserted two maps below that might be useful:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    I've received some good suggestions from Halavar in the SSHCP thread which I already accepted and would like to keep them - for more info, see this post.
    I guess this part of the map is far good, but i still thinking that Cannakkalle shoud be another settlement instead of it. And the fix of Izmir being a city should be did too, since a castle makes more sense to Izmir.
    And i guess we should put another settlement on the Cilician Armenia, and take off the control of the Seljuks on the "Real"-Armenia/Georgia. Its too odd for the turks begining having the control of that area.

  14. #194

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Eastern Europe proposals posted, next up: Steppes!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichon View Post
    Her mentor was accused by Soviets and he then changed his conclusions to say that steppe peoples had no lasting influence on the Rus. She on the other hand was awarded numerous prizes by Soviets.
    Lay off the "it`s all Evil Commys` fault".
    You have no evidence that the scientist in question was corrupted in any way, so please refrain from presumptions.

    As for guesswork, I`d say that 2 million people for a steppe people like Cumans is absolutely HUGE. Maybe, if you would include all of their subsidiary tribes at the apex of their power. But even with that it sounds huge to me.
    Of course, this is just my guesswork. Just like your estimations.
    Feel free to ignore it if you will.

  15. #195

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Eastern Europe proposals posted, next up: Steppes!

    Quote Originally Posted by popovic View Post
    Lay off the "it`s all Evil Commys` fault".
    You have no evidence that the scientist in question was corrupted in any way, so please refrain from presumptions.

    As for guesswork, I`d say that 2 million people for a steppe people like Cumans is absolutely HUGE.
    Well since her work is not very peer reviewed as far as I can find or cited and knowing her mentor who also trained many other archeologists and historians who have since become pillars of their fields in Russia was forced into changing his conclusions by the very authorities who then celebrated her work, its not hard to see why there might be questions. I doubt the work itself is corrupt and I took pains to say without access to her work or peer reviews of her work I can't be sure. That could be due to language barrier as well as citations are a factor of language.

    However I can question the person who presents her work as it agrees with what I consider a prejudiced opinion. Whether Cumans or any of the steppes tribal groups ever had 2 million population on all the extended allied tribes, vassals, and tributary cities probably will never be proven conclusively or not. But that steppes peoples contributed relatively nothing to Rus formation and culture seems BS and a politically motivated statement.

    If you read what I wrote I am not saying Cumans themselves were 2 million but that the area they had control over had a population of 2 million. Of themselves I think 100-300,000 is likely if Kipchaks and Cumans both are considered intermingled and sharing the same fates.

    The question is how to portray such arrangements in SS. HRE had a shared culture even if the duchies and kingdoms were independent or fighting each other. Rus were similar, as were Seljuks.

    Cumans more resemble Crusaders... a relatively small group that took control of much larger population. Since we have no problem allowing Crusaders to start with control over entire regions where they actually only had some castles and exacted tribute in poll taxes and other instruments from majority Muslim and Orthodox population it seems to me Cumans should be represented similarly. Just as new Crusaders periodically appeared to reinforce the rulers and some Crusaders returned to Europe the tribes in the steppes moved around some going further west, some going south and entering Anatolia which saw continual Turkic migrations during this period. It wasn't until another strong organized alliance of tribes headed by Mongols that came along and pushed Cumans west (the remnants that refused to surrender anyhow) while majority merged into the Golden Horde.

  16. #196
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    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Eastern Europe proposals posted, next up: Steppes!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichon View Post
    But that steppes peoples contributed relatively nothing to Rus formation and culture seems BS and a politically motivated statement.
    Show me where I've stated this?
    ICHON IS A LIER!
    Moders please wipe out his BS or it would be endless.

    This info is not for the Ichon, nothing can help him. But for the others:
    the region from the Carpathians to Ural was populated with many ethnoses, where kipchaks is only a part.
    Torks, Beredei, Black Clobuki, Kovui, Saksiny, Brodniki, the rest of Khazars and Pecheneges. Total population potentially could be more then 1 million. But not the Cumans themselves. So Cumans should not represent this region as a monolite power. Because they where not.

  17. #197

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Steppes done, next part: Anatolia!

    It's time to chill out guys, this is absolutely not the place to wrangle over commies...
    We have already moved on from the Steppes, so please try to remain on topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mbrabant View Post
    I guess this part of the map is far good, but i still thinking that Cannakkalle shoud be another settlement instead of it. And the fix of Izmir being a city should be did too, since a castle makes more sense to Izmir.
    And i guess we should put another settlement on the Cilician Armenia, and take off the control of the Seljuks on the "Real"-Armenia/Georgia. Its too odd for the turks begining having the control of that area.
    I agree on Canakkale, that's why I changed its name to Dardanellia based on Halavar's suggestions, but perhaps the map could also do without it. Smyrna (Izmir) can be changed to a castle, but we shall discuss it later.
    Georgia should only be independent in 1132 (King David the Builder ousted the Seljuks ten years earlier), but extending Cilician Armenia is a bit tricky: Rollingwave's idea of adding Sis (Kozan) sounds good, but if you look at the map you'll notice there's not much space near Adana for another settlement... It's not impossible, though.

  18. #198
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    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Steppes done, next part: Anatolia!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fair Prince View Post
    It's time to chill out guys, this is absolutely not the place to wrangle over commies...
    We have already moved on from the Steppes, so please try to remain on topic.
    *puts on moderator hat*

    Agreed. Lets move it along.

    *takes off moderator hat. Puts on hilariously sized sombrero*

    BftB2 UPDATED 22nd DECEMBER. Member of the Complete Byzantine Unit Roster team

  19. #199

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Steppes done, next part: Anatolia!

    Artuqid Dynasty

    "Turkmen dynasty that ruled the province of Diyarbakr in northern Iraq (now in southeastern Turkey) through two branches: at Hisn Kayfa and Amid (1098-1232) and at Mardin and Mayyafariqin (1104-1408).

    Artuq ibn Ekseb, founder of the dynasty, was rewarded for his services to the Seljuq sultan with the grant of Palestine in 1086. Forced out of Palestine by the Fatimids of Egypt, Artuq's descendant Mu'in ad-Din Sukmen returned to Diyarbakr, where he took Hisn Kayfa (1102), Mardin, and several other northern districts. His brother Najm ad-Din Ilghazi, meanwhile, returned to Seljuq service and was made governor of Iraq by the Seljuq sultan Muhammad. Sent to Diyarbakr in about 1107, Ilghazi displaced one of Sukmen's sons at Mardin (1108); he then made it the capital of his line, leaving Hisn Kayfa to his brother's descendants.The Artuqids' relations with the Seljuqs thenceforth steadily worsened. Ilghazi organized a Turkmen coalition against the Seljuq governor of Mosul and was able to win control of all Diyarbakr by 1118. The next year he defeated European crusaders who were threatening Aleppo. From 1113 the Artuqids also expanded into the northeast, along the eastern Euphrates.The rise of the Zangids in Mosul and later in Aleppo during the reigns of Da'ud (c. 1109-44) and his successor, Kara Arslan (1144-67), ended Artuqid expansion. The Artuqids were instead drawn into wars against the crusaders and the Byzantines by the Zangid Nureddin and, at his death in 1174, found themselves Zangid vassals. Their position in Diyarbakr weakened further as Saladin, ruler of Egypt, gradually began to reconquer Nureddin's old kingdom, and by 1186 the Artuqids had submitted to Saladin.The Artuqids survived in Diyarbakr for two more centuries as vassals of the Seljuqs of Rum and the Khwarezm-Shahs. In 1232 the Artuqid line in Hisn Kayfa was destroyed by the Seljuqs; but the Mardin branch continued under the Mongols until 1408, when it was finally displaced by the Turkmen federation of the Kara Koyunlu.The artistic traditions of the Artuqid age had a strong Seljuq flavour. Contact with the West occasionally brought some Byzantine elements into the iconography. Several examples of Artuqid metalwork have survived, and Artuqid textiles include delicate silks and heavier brocades. Little Artuqid architecture has survived. From recent excavations and historical descriptions, however, it is known that the palace at Diyarbakr was splendid.


    Danishmend dynasty

    Also spelled Danismend, also called DANISHMENDID, Turkmen dynasty that ruled in the Sivas-Kayseri-Malatya-Kastamonu region of central and northeastern Anatolia from about 1071 to 1178.
    Danishmend (Danismend), founder of the dynasty, first appeared in Anatolia as a gazi (warrior for the faith of Islam) during a period of confusion that followed the death of the Seljuq sultan Sulayman ibn Qutalmush in 1086. In 1102 Danishmend took Malatya, but when he died in 1104, the city was captured by the Seljuq sultan Quj Arslan. Danishmend's son and successor, Gazi, intervened in dynastic struggles among the sons of Quj Arslan and helped Mas'ud seize power in 1116. Gazi then captured Malatya, Ankara, Kayseri, and Kastamonu from Mas'ud's rivals (1127). Finally in 1133 Gazi recaptured Kastamonu from the Byzantine emperor John II Comnenus, who had taken it the previous year. The caliph al-Mustarshid and Sanjar, the Seljuq sultan of Iraq-Iran, rewarded Gazi for his victories over the Christians by granting him the title of malik (king). Gazi died, however, in 1134, and his son Mehmed (Muhammad) took the title instead.When Mehmed died (1142), the Danishmend territory was divided among his two brothers--Yagibasan (Yaghibasan) in Sivas and 'Ayn ad-Dawlah in Malatya-Elbistan--and his son Dhu an-Nun in Kayseri. After Yagibasan's death (1164), the Seljuq sultan Quj Arslan II intervened repeatedly in the affairs of the Sivas and Kayseri branches and finally invaded Danishmend territory; but he was stopped by Dhu an-Nun's father-in-law, Nureddin of Mosul. Nureddin died in 1174, however, and Quj was able to take Sivas, the Yesil Irmak (Iris) valley, Tokat, and Amasya (1175), and Dhu an-Nun was slain. The Malatya branch came under Seljuq control in 1178, thus marking the end of the Danishmend dynasty.Danishmend, the first ruler, is the hero of an oral epic tradition, the Danishmendname, which first appeared in written form
    about 1245."

    Also the Ildenizids in Azerbaijan and various smaller emirates such as Burid and Zengids of Damascus and the largest state which was Sultanate of Rum
    .

    How we portray Seljuks is tough... personally I would enjoy playing them more if had to expand from a smaller area than currently but overall rebels and city levels should probably be increased. The hard part is game balance as Seljuks serve as balance against Byzantines especially in early campaign. Baghdad is more than nominally under control of Seljuks in 1100 but began to lose control early in the period. Fatimids have a similar issue with supposed vassals in Syria and.recent conflict with Zirids in N Africa and civil war which weakened Fatimids and allowed Zengids to take over which begins the Ayyubid dynasty.

    So really it could even be that Ayyubids start the campaign controlling parts of Syria with most of Egypt as rebel since in some other areas we've considered giving relevance to events which happened in the late 1100s only 70 years after campaign start and Rum Sultanate in Anatolia instead of Great Seljuks. This way would have many more rebels and the Muslim states would have to spend much more time growing before become giant threats. Also if we start Ayyubids as Zengrids in Syria they have to expand past Crusaders which might be interesting.
    Last edited by Ichon; July 23, 2011 at 12:58 AM.

  20. #200

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - Steppes done, next part: Anatolia!

    Thanks for the massive input once again, it will certainly be useful when we discuss the settlement ownerships - as I already mentioned in my other threads before, I plan to represent the Hamadan branch of the Seljuks in the game who were located mostly in today's Iraq and Iran, basically meaning they will be more or less as powerful as they are now.

    Back to Anatolia, I have the following ideas in my mind: first, Rhodes needs to go and Attaleia should replace Isparta as it was rightly suggested in the SSHCP thread some time ago. Based on another good suggestion, Diyarbakir could also make way for Hasankeyf. As far as Armenian Cilicia is concerned, we might as well follow RollingWave's path by cutting Adana and bringing in both Sis and Tarsus.
    The last one might sound a bit radical, but what about getting rid of either Canakkale or Smyrna?

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