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Thread: SSHIP - Original Thread (archived)

  1. #1

    Default SSHIP - Original Thread (archived)

    The Stainless Steel Historical Improvement Project (SSHIP)
    Formerly known as the Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP)

    This thread has been closed.

  2. #2

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    The latest text updates for SS 6.3/6.4 are now available for download in the first post!

    This time there are lots of changes in the new release, those who are interested can find them with yellow background in the name changes list.
    Thanks again to everyone, especially Halavar, for researching and posting excellent suggestions - without this help I won't be able to make this submod.
    Needless to say, now that this project has begun, I'm counting on your contribution in the future as well!

    EDIT: the new map has been released, therefore the text updates have become obsolete and are no longer downloadable.

  3. #3

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    Hallo Fair Prince

    You may take a look here to see another awesome map, but it need some fixes on the baltic area.

    RollingWave is a good mapper, and i really think u guys can work together and make an awesome map

  4. #4

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mbrabant View Post
    Hallo Fair Prince

    You may take a look here to see another awesome map, but it need some fixes on the baltic area.

    RollingWave is a good mapper, and i really think u guys can work together and make an awesome map
    Thanks, in fact I already checked RW's map and even contacted him about its availability, but after a second thought I decided not to adapt it for this project, as he did some quite radical changes that I don't agree with.

  5. #5
    Ottheinrich's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    What is great about RW's map is, that he added some regions to north-western Europe.
    It would be great if your mod would aim in a similar direction I found it extremly boring to play a faction like France, HRE or even England and the scandinavian Kingdoms because of the lack of regions in Europe you could figth for. Central Europe, espacially France and along the Rhine, feels empty while the eastern steppes and the deserts feel crowed in comparison
    Last edited by Ottheinrich; May 30, 2011 at 04:24 AM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ottheinrich View Post
    What is great about RW's map is, that he added some regions to north-western Europe.
    It would be great if your mod would aim in a similar direction I found it extremly boring to play a faction like France, HRE or even England and the scandinavian Kingdoms because of the lack of regions in Europe you could figth for. Central Europe, espacially France and along the Rhine, feels empty while the eastern steppes and the deserts feel crowed in comparison
    Agreed, Europe should certainly be a more crowded part of the map.
    Personally, I like RW's changes on France and on the HRE, but on the other hand I think the British Isles should have remained mostly untouched.

    I'm gonna post some proposed changes in the coming days, but I also welcome ideas from now on!

  7. #7
    RollingWave's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    For every add you need a subtraction because SS is at the region limit, the reason why most of the cut went to the British isle was the pure and simple fact that until the very very end of the medieval era at the earliest, The British Isle's population was quite small (even most generous estimate put it at around 6-7m at best. where as a generous estimate of France for this period might exceed 20m ), much smaller in purportion than it is today, yet it has an huge # of region, by far the most per capita of any region on the map. Its hard not to see obvious bias for this result. before this version Ireland even had 3-4 settlement. when it's population in the medieval era was almost surely smaller than say... Corsica or Sardinia.

    Population isn't the only guide, but it should certainly be a very serious consideration. The Population of the British Isles in the medieval era was almost surely less than that of say... the modern day Iraq region. (at least until the region got Mongoled into dust) . yet even with my changes Iraq have about half the # of regions as the British Isles. There's simply no reason to believe that a puny settlement like Exeter or Galway should come before say... Orleans, which would have been either the largest or second largest settlement if it was in the Isles. Almost every settlement I added were either well noted big settlements of the period (way bigger than the one I subtracted). or were political centers of rather relavant factions.

    I have posted on my own thread before on why I made my changes, certainly a few regions are debatable, but I highly doubt that the British Isles is really the one. more like there's still not enough region in France / Germany.

    Many of the old region in SS were highly HIGHLY questionable, Melilla is a farce and only relavant because it ended up being a Spanish territory (at the very end of the period) . there are half a dozen more relavant settlement in Moroco alone, Clermont appearing while places like Orleans and Poitiers (both easily triple it's population) was also crazy. Wallachia was not really formed until the later half of the Medieval era, in 1100 the Vlach Migration was just getting started. Moscow didn't really exist as anything more than a glorified village until the 14th century etc etc... the list goes on.

    (British Isles)

    Cut:

    Galway
    Aberdeen
    Exeter
    Winchester

    In general, the British Isle's population during the middle ages was small, and even smaller outside of England, the population of Ireland might have realistically been lower than that of the Balearic isles for example. as such, and given the rather clear overpowerness of whoever wins in the isles in most game out come, a very big axe was given to the region.

    (Scandinavia and Germany)
    Cut:

    Eikundsund
    Skara
    Nyk÷ping
    Arhus

    Add:

    Ribe
    Lubeck
    Hanover

    See British isles, the population density of the region was very low during this period especially outside of the Danish regions. Arhus was not particularly important in the sense that it was the main port but it wasn't the main capital. Ribe was the main political seat in Jutland.

    Lubeck not being in was obviously a farce, while Hanover gives Germany area a bit more reasonable represntation .

    Rus / Steppe region:

    Cut:

    Embi
    Kholyv
    Serbinoka
    Moscow
    Zholotymyr
    Turku

    Added:

    Chernigov
    Turov
    Suzdal
    Volodymyr
    Novhorod-Siverskyi

    Embi and Kholyv region were very sparesly populated during this period. and there was no proof that either settlement actually existed at that point. (actually there is quite a bit of proof that they DIDN't Exist until much later) for the other 3 it's mainly because they were either small or relatively unimportant to the other cities I added to the Rus region. Moscow was not meantioned in any text until the late 1100s for example, and was not a particularly prominent town until the 1300-1400s. Turku was not founded until around the turn of the 13th C, while Finland in general was too sparesly populated to seriously warrant a settlement.

    The settlements I added in their stead should be instantly recognizable by anyone with even a passing interest in Russian Medieval history as some of the most important centers of Russian Principality during this period. in fact they're almost all more important than any other Rus Settlements outside of Kiev and Novogorod

    the overall # of Rus region actually went down by 1 but the distribution becomes much more focused on the Ukrain / Belarus region. which is inline with the historical reality of the region.

    (Balkan / Byzantium Region)

    Cut:
    Targoviste
    Rhodes

    Added:
    Ras
    Tarnovo

    Wallachia as a concept did not truely form until the late 13th C at the earliest and more likely the 14th C. Rhodes is the most logical one of the remaining settlements to cut due to population and relative importance issue. Ras was the real capital of the Serbian Principality that eventually became the Kingdom of Serbia, while Tarnovo was the capital of the Second Bulgarian Empire, these two settlement had massive political importance from the 12th-15th century, they abosalutely had to be in.

    (Greater Persian Region)
    Cut:

    Khiva
    Mashhud
    Konjikala

    Added:

    Merv
    Herat
    Nishapur


    This is basically just a regional center move (though combined with a bit of border redraw as well, the 3 city that I added in there stead were almost all surely amongst teh top 20 greatest city IN THE WORLD during the 12-13th C. Merv was repeated attested as being just as populated as Baghdad during this period. meanwhile, Khiva was not really prominent until after the Mongols literally wiped Persia off the face of the earth, while Mashhud and Konjikala was clearly not as prominent as those other two.

    (Arabian Region)

    Cut:

    Sharjah (the UAE/Oman region)
    Qarisiya
    Al-Aqba
    Tayma

    Added:
    Al-Kharj (modern day Riyadh)
    Najaf
    Samarra

    Essentially shifting the Population towards Mesopotamia, which was easily several times the population of the rest of the Penisula combined. Al-Kharj represents the Arabian desert trade rout, which was not really impassable. This balance out the power of Egypt greatly as well. as they start with 2 less settlement and much harder access to Medina / Mecca .

    (Western North Africa, aka the Maghreb region and Iberia)

    Cut:

    Melilla
    Baleb Al Anab

    Add:
    Badajoz
    Sijilmasa

    Melilla was barely a village at that time, it's only real significance came at the very tail end of the medieval period due to Spanish occupation, Baleb Al Anab is ok but having 3 region for Algeria is really too much. Sijilmasa was very crucial to the Moorish dynasties in controlling the Saharan trade routs, and as such it is represented as having a very good land trade access and very good resources. Seperated Badajoz from Sevilla again. Both were important and Andalusia really could use more representation anyway.

    (France)

    Cut
    Clermont
    Marseille

    Added

    Troyes
    Orleans
    Nice
    Arles
    Poitiers

    The # of settlement France had in 6.3 (and MTW as a whole) is generally a travesty, based much more on 1800s population than 1100s. the medieval era French region was easily at least 4 times the population as the British Isles.

    Orleans and Poitiers were probably as big as London during that period. or at least bigger than any British settlement not named London by a good margin. Nice was the border zone between Italy and France and frequently switched between Genoa and French hands. while I moved Marseilli to Arles partly due to political importance (the Kingdom of Arles was the bases of later era Bungundy) and partly due to map balance (to put a little more distance between them and Nice )

    (Italian and Swiss Region)
    Cut:
    Bern

    Added:
    Florence
    Verona
    Trieste
    Zurich

    Northern Italy was by far the most densely populated region in Catholic Europe during the entire medieval era, there isn't much more needed to be said about why these were added. Moved Bern to Zurich as Bern wasn't founded until later on. and Zurich geographically and historically all make more sense than Bern anyway. Vernoa is a very interesting position as it's literally right in the middle of everything, while Florence's importance is too obvious to overlook, Trieste was quite important to Venice's empire as it's second port and gateway into the Balkans.

    (Anatolia)
    Cut:
    Adana

    Added:
    Sis
    Tarsus

    Essentially spliting the Cilician Armenian region into it's 2 Capital region, to give more complextion to the Anatolian war and possibly to lay the ground for a future Armenian faction.
    Last edited by RollingWave; June 01, 2011 at 02:06 PM.
    1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....

  8. #8

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    About Wallachia Rolling Wave, nothing biased, but there, in fact at a "border: of these regions Wallachia and Moldavia, the Pope send an archbishop to Black Cumans state. A vassal state of Hungary crown, but dont think that area is insignificant. No need to point a city on Danube, when Danube Delta was a bit different, called Vicina. Is posible you never heard of this. A lost city, probably destroied by mongols and ottomans after them. Some things about Vicina, founded by byzantines, was under control of Genova, Wallachia, Byzantium because was not onlyy a big settlement but it was there because comerce. A city in low Danube, south of Moldavia and north east of Wallachia. Why someone will keep this city, fight for it and change suveranity of it? Because comerce. Without comerce this cant survive. Comerce mean goods maded by people.
    Other thing, do you think Mircea the Elder come from I dont know what godly personality a ottoman killer before Timur?
    I really dont think so. Problem there is lack of written proves and the front light taken by serbian, bulgarian and hungarian medieval states. Belive me what I say, Wallachia produce enough goods to be not only important, but probably visible at SS time.
    Examples are in huge number of cattles and grains, timber and salt. Other important thing is the strugle of Hungary and ottomans to control this area. A insignificant area, economic and population, will become uninteresting. Can be Wallachia and Moldavia not interesting when the sultan come with 100 000 soldiers to conquer it and to many times to lose the battles?

    Kill Them All, Let God Sort Them Out!


  9. #9

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fair Prince View Post
    Agreed, Europe should certainly be a more crowded part of the map.
    Personally, I like RW's changes on France and on the HRE, but on the other hand I think the British Isles should have remained mostly untouched.

    I'm gonna post some proposed changes in the coming days, but I also welcome ideas from now on!
    I'll wait to see what proposed changes you make but I agree with RW about British Isles. Since regions represent population including some just because they are well known isn't fair to historical realities. It should be much more fun to play with England and realizing why the Normans were so reluctant to give up their French dominions. In previous SS map giving up Caen was easy and fairly painless as the Isles offered much more income and power. Now if you want to compete as a major power with England you pretty much have to be present in France.

    EDIT- reference for discussion;

    Tell El Farama, Suez, Aqaba are mostly strategic points between CS and Fatimids and probably are equal relatively. Suez and Aqaba both lost importance until Mameluks tried to contest with Portuguese in 1500s and stationed fleets there but Mameluks were not much of a sea power. Ottomans had better ports elsewhere. Rashid(Rosetta), Tanta, and Asyut seem the best contenders due to population and trade consideration and exist in 1100s- some other cities founded after 1200s are around but not historical timeline.

    Rashid is way too close to Alexandria but Tanta and Asyut would fit perfectly. Considering more the balance in Arabia a merger of Mecca and Medina really seems best. Tayma could stay or a bit better might be to exchange it for Ha'il the most important stop on the route between Baghdad and Mecca and a center of food production.
    Last edited by Ichon; May 07, 2012 at 09:23 PM.

  10. #10
    Ottheinrich's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    I might be biased because it is my home region, but I really think the Electoral Palatinate or a region similar to it should be added to western Germany. Maybe get rid of Staufen and replace it by Speyer, which has been by far more important throughout the middle ages than Staufen. Problem is, it is rather close to Frankfurt (at least closer than Staufen...)
    Furthermore, I do think Metz should be replaced by Strasbourg.

  11. #11
    Andytheplatypus's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichon View Post
    I'll wait to see what proposed changes you make but I agree with RW about British Isles. Since regions represent population including some just because they are well known isn't fair to historical realities. It should be much more fun to play with England and realizing why the Normans were so reluctant to give up their French dominions. In previous SS map giving up Caen was easy and fairly painless as the Isles offered much more income and power. Now if you want to compete as a major power with England you pretty much have to be present in France.
    I like the gameplay aspect of what RW did to his map. But i dont like the fact that during the 14th century England was one of the most prosperous countries in Europe. With limiting the number of regions there is no way to accurately represent that unless you have a bunch of unique buildings in the british isles.

  12. #12

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ottheinrich View Post
    I might be biased because it is my home region, but I really think the Electoral Palatinate or a region similar to it should be added to western Germany. Maybe get rid of Staufen and replace it by Speyer, which has been by far more important throughout the middle ages than Staufen. Problem is, it is rather close to Frankfurt (at least closer than Staufen...)
    Furthermore, I do think Metz should be replaced by Strasbourg.
    Yeah I suggested changing this region to RW as well- not Speyer but that is better than my suggestion. It is not too close to Frankfurt and gives some room to Bern and also moving to or from N Italy for HRE which is probably good.

    Metz or Strasbourg is more difficult. Metz seems to have more important battles fought nearby and is slightly closer to center of France than Strasbourg and if Speyer is added instead of Staufen which is more important change in my mind then the distances between Speyer and Strasbourg is of more concern than between Speyer and Frankfurt so I'd leave Metz I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andytheplatypus View Post
    I like the gameplay aspect of what RW did to his map. But i dont like the fact that during the 14th century England was one of the most prosperous countries in Europe. With limiting the number of regions there is no way to accurately represent that unless you have a bunch of unique buildings in the british isles.
    How do you measure that? 100 years war was raging and wars with Scotland and then the plague. It wasn't England's best time. In relation to France where majority of fighting in the 100 years war occurred in their lands and the wars of the French kings to consolidate power not only with the English but their own powerful lords led to high taxes in England on a smaller population base and numerous rebellions compared to France which could raise taxes to a lower level on a broader base and gain more revenue. In fact the French won the war eventually anyways despite being quite fractured which shows that English power was not that great at this point in time. In late 1500s English navy grew stronger and reforms of trade and government instituted in 1300-1400 began to give England much greater prosperity. But that is about 200 years after the time you are referring.

    I think it works quite well... by late 1500s that is quite late in the campaign but if England united all the isles and had relative peace for long period its cities and infrastructure would be quite developed and in position to resemble the actual 1500s growth of English power. If RW did a later campaign then England could have Winchester or something added back.

    Its not until late 1500s that England regains the population it had just prior to plagues which was around 4 million. Comparatively France in 1300 had about 16 million and in 1500, 20 million after hitting low during 100 years war and plagues of 14 million.

    Much of the historical books focus on England's prosperity because the lower amount of population did have higher standard of living in some ways and more material wealth than feudal areas of France but if they had measures of total GDP then England would still be low. English maybe had higher per capita wealth but France had much greater total wealth though specific regions of France were equal to England in development and wealth there were other very poor areas that bring down the average.
    Last edited by Ichon; June 01, 2011 at 06:27 PM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    Quote Originally Posted by RollingWave View Post
    For every add you need a subtraction because SS is at the region limit, the reason why most of the cut went to the British isle was the pure and simple fact that until the very very end of the medieval era at the earliest, The British Isle's population was quite small (even most generous estimate put it at around 6-7m at best. where as a generous estimate of France for this period might exceed 20m ), much smaller in purportion than it is today, yet it has an huge # of region, by far the most per capita of any region on the map. Its hard not to see obvious bias for this result. before this version Ireland even had 3-4 settlement. when it's population in the medieval era was almost surely smaller than say... Corsica or Sardinia.

    Population isn't the only guide, but it should certainly be a very serious consideration. The Population of the British Isles in the medieval era was almost surely less than that of say... the modern day Iraq region. (at least until the region got Mongoled into dust) . yet even with my changes Iraq have about half the # of regions as the British Isles. There's simply no reason to believe that a puny settlement like Exeter or Galway should come before say... Orleans, which would have been either the largest or second largest settlement if it was in the Isles. Almost every settlement I added were either well noted big settlements of the period (way bigger than the one I subtracted). or were political centers of rather relavant factions.

    I have posted on my own thread before on why I made my changes, certainly a few regions are debatable, but I highly doubt that the British Isles is really the one. more like there's still not enough region in France / Germany.

    Many of the old region in SS were highly HIGHLY questionable, Melilla is a farce and only relavant because it ended up being a Spanish territory (at the very end of the period) . there are half a dozen more relavant settlement in Moroco alone, Clermont appearing while places like Orleans and Poitiers (both easily triple it's population) was also crazy. Wallachia was not really formed until the later half of the Medieval era, in 1100 the Vlach Migration was just getting started. Moscow didn't really exist as anything more than a glorified village until the 14th century etc etc... the list goes on.
    I accept that England had a smaller population than France at the time, but I still think it's a bit unfair to just remove those cities from their island. Whether France should get more settlements is out of question (they should), but making those removals would seriously penalize their English neighbours. Even if I'm not a fan of them, we are talking about a major power of the Medieval ages after all, and I think that they certainly deserve more than 4 regions at the start - why not just lower down the population of their settlements instead?

    Moreover, you know that I'm also working on a historical project, taking possible ducal titles into account as well - and one can only get authentic ducal titles if the settlements and regions (more or less) correspond to the titles they refer to. That said, I can't fancy the idea of joining the whole south England then calling it Wessex, for example.

    I found some really cool alterations on your map that I'd gladly take to this project, but there are also some that I can't accept - I'll comment on your list in detail soon, but until that, have some reps for your massive input here!

  14. #14

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gogolometro View Post
    About Wallachia Rolling Wave, nothing biased, but there, in fact at a "border: of these regions Wallachia and Moldavia, the Pope send an archbishop to Black Cumans state. A vassal state of Hungary crown, but dont think that area is insignificant. No need to point a city on Danube, when Danube Delta was a bit different, called Vicina. Is posible you never heard of this. A lost city, probably destroied by mongols and ottomans after them. Some things about Vicina, founded by byzantines, was under control of Genova, Wallachia, Byzantium because was not onlyy a big settlement but it was there because comerce. A city in low Danube, south of Moldavia and north east of Wallachia. Why someone will keep this city, fight for it and change suveranity of it? Because comerce. Without comerce this cant survive. Comerce mean goods maded by people.
    Other thing, do you think Mircea the Elder come from I dont know what godly personality a ottoman killer before Timur?
    I really dont think so. Problem there is lack of written proves and the front light taken by serbian, bulgarian and hungarian medieval states. Belive me what I say, Wallachia produce enough goods to be not only important, but probably visible at SS time.
    Examples are in huge number of cattles and grains, timber and salt. Other important thing is the strugle of Hungary and ottomans to control this area. A insignificant area, economic and population, will become uninteresting. Can be Wallachia and Moldavia not interesting when the sultan come with 100 000 soldiers to conquer it and to many times to lose the battles?
    I fully agree with you on this, actually I have already suggested making way for Wallachia in Rozanov's previous thread.
    Those who are interested might check that thread once again as a good number of useful suggestions were posted there!

  15. #15

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    It is not just a "smaller" population but 75% or more smaller until 1600s and England only came close to France in population by 1800s. That is a significant difference. Ducal titles are nice touch but its impossible to incorporate all of them. Especially as the titles don't conform to universal sizes. Many were hereditary and don't represent a true administrative region.

    As for England getting only 4 regions at start- everyone in the west except HRE starts with same or smaller and while England was an important power in the NW of Europe it wasn't a super power. It was purely regional power other than limited participation compared to other kingdoms in the Crusades until late 1500s. France in RW's mod starts with 3 regions to show that while France had a large culture and broad area of shared language its government was fragmented much worse than England. England's main strength was in organization and strength of the central government compared to France. French king actually claimed more rights but could enforce less. So despite England's much smaller resources it could use them more effectively. IE- starting with 4 integrated regions compared to France's 3. However once France got itself better organized it was easily able to kick English mostly off the continent and became the major power for the next 500 years.

    I am not sure how you think it penalizes England's neighbors... do you mean if they conquest the isles?

    Anyway- not to dispute with you personally but sometimes I get frustrated that the historical exposure of England through its colonies and later history influences people to think that medieval England had outsized impact.

    Europe in 1100 was incredibly fragmented compared to now. Looking at maps of the different kingdoms makes you think all those lands were pacified and had government infrastructure when actually many times the "kings" that claimed rule there could never collect taxes and had to constantly fight to maintain even their own royal lands. England's strength was that Williams conquest killed majority of the Saxon nobility and the ruling classes felt much more bound to the king personally as they were under threat by basically foreign lower classes that didn't even speak the same language. William had the chance to give titles and lands almost completely fresh so instead of having lords which had ruled the same regions for generations and built up power he gave his nobles lands scattered all over England so they didn't have a strong base of power to challenge royal authority in addition to having to stick together to maintain control over their conquested foreign subjects.

    French dialects were spoken by the upper classes in England exclusively until 1300s and then slowly conversion to English began but French remained language of the court until 1400s. So its important to realize that while English achievements were notable it wasn't due to equal resources with France which in the game basically comes down to regions.

    England in game still will be richer than France proportionally with the sea trade and more secure base. Also while England lost a few regions and France gained some... its still giving England much more power and resources than they ever had historically to be able to allow AI to represent better the historical power of England. IE- France in RW map has between 18-20 regions that might be considered "French" including low countries. England starts with 4 but has access to 8 regions in the isles if it conquests totally. If it leaves Scotland alive which it was for period historically then England has 6 regions. About 1/3 of France IF France actually takes all of its "French" regions which rarely happens. More often either Scotland or England gets all of the isles while France expands to about 10 regions before hitting resistance from other powers. So England is able to contest quite well with France in the game- better than history almost surely.
    Last edited by Ichon; June 02, 2011 at 03:26 PM.

  16. #16
    RollingWave's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    The English were a super power briefly... but that's because the marriage of Henry & Elanor gave them more French land then the King of France held. Those possesions were screwed soon by their sons (Richard and John, Richard's role in screwing up those possesion is often way underestimated relative to his brother). and by the early 13th C the English were largely knocked out of France by Phillips Augustus except for a small tip in Normandy and the areas around Bordeux and became quite irrelavent until they were able to get a serious hold of France again in the Hundred Years war that they became relavent again, and even then you notice that the English army was generally smaller than the French (dispite drawing from a considerablly wider population base), AND they were unable to suffer the attrition as the French did.

    As for regional title, the problem is by that logic we should have 1 region for each Byzantium Thema as well. not to meantion that we should apply the same logic to other areas, the English were hardly the only onces with clear regional setups. for example I had really wanted to add in Santiago in the Iberia, which represented a very clear historical region of Galicia. (hell it was even a nominal Kingdom at this time), or the city of Huesca (which was the real home base of Aragon in 1100, the problem is it's like right next to Zaragosa) It's simply a logic that can't be applied on a rationally even level without requiring something like (at least) 500 region instead of 200.

    With my setup, the only states to start with the same or more region as the English would be...

    HRE: (something like 13)
    Turks: (around the same as HRE)
    Byznatium: 11 i think
    Moors: 9
    Cumans: 5
    Fatimid: 5

    That's it. others that start with 4 are.

    Leon+Castilla
    Hungary
    Kiev

    So essentially I have English as the clear 2nd tier power, those that start out with considerable holdings but not a obvious super power, in the previous setup they start out with like 3 less region then the Holy Roman empire, which is simply ridiculas.
    1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....

  17. #17
    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Feb 2010
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    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    I tend to agree with FP due to game balance. There's of course the population factor but by removing 4 regions in British Isles, either Scotland or England is just very easy to conquer. But that's the thing with a so huge map, there will always some parts of Europe that would need adjustments.

    Instead on working on SS map, I would suggest an even more drastic change. Using the vanilla map and tweak it. Removing Kwarezmian and the Very East. That way we free up like 10-12 regions right away.

    Mongols? No problem, again "└ la vanilla". There will be a large stack of Mongols then in several turns, reinforcement will spawn.

    Cumans? They may take a hit but surely they would have enough regions (and again tweaking the East).

    And, instead of Kwarezmian? We add Georgia.

    In Early period, we remove the TO and Timurid and we replace them with Bulgaria and Abbasid.

    Then, that way, the map will be better for all factions

    This is suggestions and I won't take up the charge to do it but if someone would do it, SS will improve much more imo.

  18. #18

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    Quote Originally Posted by St. Polycarpe View Post
    I tend to agree with FP due to game balance. There's of course the population factor but by removing 4 regions in British Isles, either Scotland or England is just very easy to conquer. But that's the thing with a so huge map, there will always some parts of Europe that would need adjustments.

    Instead on working on SS map, I would suggest an even more drastic change. Using the vanilla map and tweak it. Removing Kwarezmian and the Very East. That way we free up like 10-12 regions right away.

    Mongols? No problem, again "└ la vanilla". There will be a large stack of Mongols then in several turns, reinforcement will spawn.

    Cumans? They may take a hit but surely they would have enough regions (and again tweaking the East).

    And, instead of Kwarezmian? We add Georgia.

    In Early period, we remove the TO and Timurid and we replace them with Bulgaria and Abbasid.

    Then, that way, the map will be better for all factions

    This is suggestions and I won't take up the charge to do it but if someone would do it, SS will improve much more imo.

    I agree, removing British Isles settlements is not the way to go.
    Shogun 2, no thanks I will stick with Kingdoms SS.

  19. #19

    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    Quote Originally Posted by St. Polycarpe View Post
    I tend to agree with FP due to game balance. There's of course the population factor but by removing 4 regions in British Isles, either Scotland or England is just very easy to conquer. But that's the thing with a so huge map, there will always some parts of Europe that would need adjustments.
    Well Scotland has 1 less region and England still takes at least 4 battles plus actually reaching the isles. AI is unlikely to invade and win so either Scotland or England will end up winning. I don't think it will change the length to establish 1 faction on the isles by more than a few turns so it mostly comes down to for the human players.

  20. #20
    RollingWave's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: The Stainless Steel Map Adjustment Project (SSMAP) - New text updates for SS 6.4 downloadable!

    The problem is you can conquer Portugal in 2 turn as well, and the Moors start out much stronger than the English (While in reality the Lisbon region in itself probably had a bigger population than all of Scotland). it's tough to make a consistent arguement like that. Aberdeen was tiny until something like the 14th C, while Inverness was really even smaller but we had to have something representing the Highlands.
    1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....

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