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Thread: Malta's Divorce Referendum, 29/05/2011

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  1. #1
    SonOfOdin's Avatar More tea?
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    Default Malta's Divorce Referendum, 29/05/2011

    Update : The majority said YES. 54% said YES, 46% said NO. A decision will be taken in parliament soon to make a final decision on whether divorce should be introduced in Malta. According to the Prime Minister Dr.Lawrence Gonzi's words, "the will of the people will be respected".



    LINKS :

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/27/malta-divorce-debate-religious-groups
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0528/malta.html
    http://www.maltatoday.com.mt/news/is-divorce-turning-the-pn-into-malta-s-tea-party
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/will-malta-finally-decide-that-divorce-should-be-legal-2287186.html
    http://mediacenter.dw-world.de/english/video/#!/141026/Malta_Divorced_at_Last


    Today, the Maltese public is voting to either keep Malta free of divorce, or legalise divorce as a civil right.
    This might seem to be a political issue, but in truth it's more than that.

    Malta is a very church-controlled country. If the divorce bill passes, it will show a good reason to separate church and state. If it doesn't, the EU may have to intervene.

    Just to show how immensely backwards the Maltese public is, some are saying they are saying "We saw the Virgin Mary cry and saying "No, don't let divorce in in Malta, and say the Rosary regularly", and something along that lines.

    Just a few comments from pro-divorce, and anti-divorce people :

    Ha nivvota LE biex niddefendi l-Kelma ta' ALLA ghax il-ligi ta' Alla hija l-fuq min kulhadd!!

    =

    I'm voting NO to defend the words of GOD because the law of God is above all!!
    Grazzi lilkom tal-impenn taghkom. Hemm min se jivvota "iva" biex ikun fuq in-naha tajba tal-istorja - imma intom hdimtu biex tkunu fuq in-naha tajba tal-eternita'.

    =

    Thank you for your work. There are people who are going to vote "yes" so they can be on the good side of history but you are working so you'll be on the good side for eternity
    ID-DIVORZJU M'HU SER ISOLVI XEJN !

    =

    DIVOCE WILL SOLVE NOTHING
    Not having the legal right to divorce just makes Malta look backward and selfish too. To be in bondage in an unhappy marriage is like living in hell and is detrimental to not only one's health but anyone else in contact with the effects. I ...support the SAY YES for the right to divorce, for everyone's sake and HAPPINESS. Anyone stuck in this terrible situation I really feel for you. FREEDOM AND LIBERTY FOR ALL IS A HUMAN RIGHT. If you don't agree you are crazy
    jien se naghmel dak li tghallimt fir religjon. ghamel skond li tghidlek il kuxjenza. Se nivvota IVA

    =

    I'm going to do what I learned in religion. I am going to do as my conscience tells me to. I'm voting YES
    Divorce is a CIVIL right. It has nothing to do with your religious beliefs. We have no right to impose our beliefs on other people. If you do not believe in divorce, don't use it, but don't tell others what they should do!!!!
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Example of Maltese Catholic fundamentalism at its very best


    So, I'd like to hear what are the opinions of non-Maltese people on this subject : "Malta in 2011. Still no divorce, and with the church controlling most of the politics and media in the country...should the EU intervene?"

    By the way, here is the official question on the referendum question :

    "Do you agree with the introduction of the choice of divorce in the case of a married couple who has been separated or has been living apart for at least four years and where there is no reasonable hope for reconciliation between the spouses, while at the same time ensuring that adequate maintenance is guaranteed and the welfare of the children is safeguarded?"
    Last edited by SonOfOdin; May 29, 2011 at 08:27 AM.
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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Malta's Divorce Referendum, 29/05/2011

    Well, we don't know if this issue pass Vatican would send Knights of Malta to reconquer that island or not...
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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    SonOfOdin's Avatar More tea?
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    Default Re: Malta's Divorce Referendum, 29/05/2011

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    Well, we don't know if this issue pass Vatican would send Knights of Malta to reconquer that island or not...
    The Knights actually own a part of a fort here(St.Angelo). They live in it and stuff, but have never launched a full scale invasion from it

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_St_Angelo
    Today some parts of the fort are leased to the Order of the Knights of St John. Indeed, given the Order's recognised status as a sovereign entity, those leased parts of the fort effectively form an independent state over which Malta has no jurisdiction (similar to the Vatican City's position within Italy). Other parts are leased to a private consortium, while a major part of the fort has been trusted to Heritage Malta, which scheduled a project to start in 2011 in order to restore the fort back to its former glory and giving any visitor a unique experience of this fort and Grand Harbour.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius Octavius Ceasar
    If you are married and pretty much hate each other, are you allowed to move out and get yourself an appartment?
    You can get separated and go live with someone else, but you can't re-marry. You can also get a divorce from abroad, but why not just legalise divorce in the country like all countries in the world(apart from the Vatican State and the Philippines)??

    Seems unfair to me, as a Maltese Atheist at least.
    Last edited by SonOfOdin; May 28, 2011 at 05:21 AM.
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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Malta's Divorce Referendum, 29/05/2011

    Anyway, isn't Church actually approve divorce long time ago? I mean, look at European history how many kings divorced their wife under the approvement of Rome...
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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    SonOfOdin's Avatar More tea?
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    Default Re: Malta's Divorce Referendum, 29/05/2011

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    Anyway, isn't Church actually approve divorce long time ago? I mean, look at European history how many kings divorced their wife under the approvement of Rome...
    Malta is a FUNDAMENTALIST Catholic state. You can't imagine the level of brainwashing and ignorance there is within the general, ageing population. It makes me ashamed to say I'm Maltese personally...
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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Malta's Divorce Referendum, 29/05/2011

    Quote Originally Posted by SonOfOdin View Post
    Malta is a FUNDAMENTALIST Catholic state. You can't imagine the level of brainwashing and ignorance there is within the general, ageing population. It makes me ashamed to say I'm Maltese personally...
    So you are saying Pope was once not fundamentalist? Or you are suggesting Church in Malta has not followed the instruction of Vatican?
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

  7. #7

    Default Re: Malta's Divorce Referendum, 29/05/2011

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    Anyway, isn't Church actually approve divorce long time ago? I mean, look at European history how many kings divorced their wife under the approvement of Rome...
    no
    the church fought fiercely against divorce at least the 60s in italy
    and they still rant on the matter

  8. #8

    Default Re: Malta's Divorce Referendum, 29/05/2011

    Quote Originally Posted by SonOfOdin View Post
    You can get seperated, but you can't re-marry. You can also get a divorce from abroad, but why not just legalise divorce in the country??
    I really dont believe in marriages, and see it more as a financial liability. But hey, if someone wants to get married and later on divorce, I see nothing wrong about it.

  9. #9
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Malta's Divorce Referendum, 29/05/2011

    Quote Originally Posted by SonOfOdin View Post
    You can get separated and go live with someone else, but you can't re-marry. You can also get a divorce from abroad, but why not just legalise divorce in the country like all countries in the world(apart from the Vatican State and the Philippines)??

    Seems unfair to me, as a Maltese Atheist at least.
    I say vote NO. Let Malta has that special thing that makes it different. Actually, press Philippines to change the law so divorces are allowed there.
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    Default Re: Malta's Divorce Referendum, 29/05/2011

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    Well, we don't know if this issue pass Vatican would send Knights of Malta to reconquer that island or not...
    or perhaps the Turks or Germans can have another go at taking Malta
    Under the patronage of Gertrudius!

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    Default Re: Malta's Divorce Referendum, 29/05/2011

    Quote Originally Posted by Belisarius View Post
    The problem is not really that Maltese are "Backwards" more that there are elements of our society and various political factions manipulating the issue.

    I campaigned for the YES vote for months, and already our debates and discussions have been overshadowed by nuns entering elderly homes stating " Do YOU want a divorce now"

    Here is an article I wrote on the issue published on the Yes FB pages:

    On the 25th of May I decided to be a little pro-active and attend the divorce debate that was held in Marsaskala. Admittedly in my time as a university student I have not been the most vocal and active student on campus. However as a student and a Maltese citizen I feel that this issue goes beyond political parties and religious affiliations. This is not an issue of personal preference, nor is this a statement of devotion to Christ. No, this is bigger than that; this is about defending the fundamental freedom we all have to choose our own destiny. This is about freedom of choice, not necessarily for us, we may not believe in divorce, but it must be a choice for those whose lives are in tatters after failed marriages.



    The question I was waiting to ask the “Le” panel was a simple one. The No, “ghall gejjieni” panel spent the best part of an hour discussing how a proposition as large as the introduction of divorce should be debated further. They stressed the need for parliament and the public to research and fully understand the issue of families and divorce before implementing any law on the populace. It must be noted that while doing this they offered no alternatives, nor have they, ever. Anyway, my question to them would be simple.



    Why are you intentionally causing people to forget the real issue?



    We all know that on Saturday we will walk into the voting area and be left alone with just a pen, a paper and our own thoughts. We will then make a simple choice between two options. At that moment our real choice will be made, a choice that will actively affect the lives of hundreds, if not thousands of individuals. Thing is, it’s very easy to forget that. I personally reflected on this point and realized that one could make a historical comparison to show exactly what the “Le” camp is doing by making us essentially dehumanize and depersonalize this issue.



    Seventy or so years ago it was very easy for a man, sitting in a dimly lit office, at an expensive oak desk, silver tipped pen in hand - to sign papers diligently handed to him by his assistant. Papers with were merely lists of names on which the individual needed only scribble some ink on a line. Did he even bother to read the papers? The choices whether or not to sign was intentionally clouded by political rhetoric, divine purpose and a sense of destiny. It was very easy in that instance to sign away lists of names and have a Currier ferry them away. The person at the desk was not the one who had to cart the names listed on those papers into trains to be transported out of existence. Sitting alone, pen in hand, it was very easy to make the choice to sign when people’s lives were regarded as nothing more then names and numbers.

    Now before people get all riled up I must make it clear that I am not comparing anyone to the Nazis, while that was the tactic of the “Ghall Gejjieni” supporter on the 25th of May who attacked Jeffrey Pullicino Orlando, it is not mine. I am merely trying to emphasize how political rhetoric and campaigning can depersonalise a choice which is in itself deeply personal.



    As voters it is easy to fill our heads with the slogans “Kristu IVA, Divorzju Le” and make it a simple choice of No. I ask you, as individuals in that room, alone with nothing but your own thoughts; will you forget the real issue?



    Will you forget about the wife, whose husband comes home drunk and rapes her? Do you think it is possibly for a couple to repair their relationship when one person has violated the other in such a manner?



    Will you forget about the man whose wife has left him for another and is thus left alone? Do you think that they can compromise a way out of the simple fact that she loves another man? How do you think the man feels about himself?



    Will you forget about the woman who is in a marriage where compromise arises when her husband beats her into submission?



    Will you forget about the child brought up in a family of convenience where screaming and mutual infidelity is rampant? What do you think his perception of family will be?



    The no campaign has forgotten these people because while consistently saying that the current law is inadequate, they offer no alternative to those thousands who are suffering. They would have you make this a choice between faith and damnation! They would have you think that divorce will make your wife leave you! They will make you think of values! So, again I ask them, what about the real issue?



    The phrase commonly used by the no camp is that, “divorce is not a civil right”! I would argue that while it might not be a civil right, it is our God given right to a second chance, it is our God given right to a choice and it is our God given right to live out our lives full of love and happiness.



    We are the descendents of brave men and women who through centuries of occupation by various foreign powers still managed to form a national identity. We defeated the Turkish hordes, we rebelled against the French, we stood defiant against fascist tyranny, and we claimed our independence! Are we really afraid of Divorce? Can you possibly vote no because you think your wife or husband might leave you? Can the people who cared for St Paul seriously turn their backs on those citizens who are living in misery? If so, can you do it with a clear conscience?



    James Dalli
    Indeed. It's such a shame that the whole issue has turned into the usual Labour vs Nationalist party fiasco that our elections and referendums usually consist of.
    Beautiful words though. + rep for that article.

    Quote Originally Posted by Babur View Post
    or perhaps the Turks or Germans can have another go at taking Malta
    Give me liberty or give me death! But I wouldn't mind us being supported by the German economy nowadays...you know?
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Malta's Divorce Referendum, 29/05/2011

    If you are married and pretty much hate each other, are you allowed to move out and get yourself an appartment?

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Malta's Divorce Referendum, 29/05/2011

    This is really a conflict between democracy and individual freedom. Assuming that most Maltese are against divorce, should the will of the majority be respected and the not-so-fundemental right to divorce be held back? Or should the government act in the name of liberty and freedom of individual choice, but ignore the will of their own nation?

    Direct democracy may be unrealistic in our modern society, but just how indirect does a government need to be until it becomes an oligarchy, acting for what's good for the people and not what the people want?
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    Walruses use their iconic long tusks for a variety of reasons, each of which makes their lives in the Arctic a bit easier. They use them to haul their enormous bodies out of frigid waters, thus their "tooth-walking" label, and to break breathing holes into ice from below. Their tusks, which are found on both males and females, can extend to about three feet (one meter), and are, in fact, large canine teeth, which grow throughout their lives. Male walruses, or bulls, also employ their tusks aggressively to maintain territory and, during mating season, to protect their harems of females, or cows.
    The walrus' other characteristic features are equally useful. As their favorite meals, particularly shellfish, are found near the dark ocean floor, walruses use their extremely sensitive whiskers, called mustacial vibrissae, as detection devices. Their blubbery bodies allow them to live comfortably in the Arctic region—walruses are capable of slowing their heartbeats in order to withstand the polar temperatures of the surrounding waters.
    The two subspecies of walrus are divided geographically. Atlantic walruses inhabit coastal areas from northeastern Canada to Greenland, while Pacific walruses inhabit the northern seas off Russia and Alaska, migrating seasonally from their southern range in the Bering Sea—where they are found on the pack ice in winter—to the Chukchi Sea. Female Pacific walruses give birth to calves during the spring migration north.
    Only Native Americans are currently allowed to hunt walruses, as the species' survival was threatened by past overhunting. Their tusks, oil, skin, and meat were so sought after in the 18th and 19th centuries that the walrus was hunted to extinction in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and around Sable Island, off the coast of Nova Scotia.

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    SonOfOdin's Avatar More tea?
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    Default Re: Malta's Divorce Referendum, 29/05/2011

    Quote Originally Posted by ♔Goodguy1066♔ View Post
    This is really a conflict between democracy and individual freedom. Assuming that most Maltese are against divorce, should the will of the majority be respected and the not-so-fundemental right to divorce be held back? Or should the government act in the name of liberty and freedom of individual choice, but ignore the will of their own nation?

    Direct democracy may be unrealistic in our modern society, but just how indirect does a government need to be until it becomes an oligarchy, acting for what's good for the people and not what the people want?
    If this was about abortion or marijuana or anything that is illegal in most of the world, I'd say no. But Divorce is nowadays a civil right in 99% of the world, why shouldn't it be so in Malta, an EU country, as well?

    The majority isn't against divorce. We will know on which side the majority is on after the referendum. But I consider it oppression that the rights of the few are being trampled on by the Catholic masses.
    /The Eagle Standard/Under the patronage of Omnipotent-Q/Werder Bremen fan/

  15. #15

    Default Re: Malta's Divorce Referendum, 29/05/2011

    Quote Originally Posted by ♔Goodguy1066♔ View Post
    This is really a conflict between democracy and individual freedom. Assuming that most Maltese are against divorce, should the will of the majority be respected and the not-so-fundemental right to divorce be held back? Or should the government act in the name of liberty and freedom of individual choice, but ignore the will of their own nation?

    Direct democracy may be unrealistic in our modern society, but just how indirect does a government need to be until it becomes an oligarchy, acting for what's good for the people and not what the people want?
    People who are against divorce, dont have to get divorced. The 'will of the nation' should hold no weight on individuals chosing if they want to divorce someone they no longer want to live with.

    Religion should never mix with politics.

  16. #16
    ♔Goodguy1066♔'s Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Malta's Divorce Referendum, 29/05/2011

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius Octavius Ceasar View Post
    People who are against divorce, dont have to get divorced. The 'will of the nation' should hold no weight on individuals chosing if they want to divorce someone they no longer want to live with.

    Religion should never mix with politics.
    But what about democratic values? Isn't the government elected to serve the people, and to do what the people wish? Are all Western governments just elected oligarchies?
    A member of the Most Ancient, Puissant and Honourable Society of Silly Old Duffers
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    Both male and female walruses have tusks and have been observed using these overgrown teeth to help pull themselves out of the water.

    The mustached and long-tusked walrus is most often found near the Arctic Circle, lying on the ice with hundreds of companions. These marine mammals are extremely sociable, prone to loudly bellowing and snorting at one another, but are aggressive during mating season. With wrinkled brown and pink hides, walruses are distinguished by their long white tusks, grizzly whiskers, flat flipper, and bodies full of blubber.
    Walruses use their iconic long tusks for a variety of reasons, each of which makes their lives in the Arctic a bit easier. They use them to haul their enormous bodies out of frigid waters, thus their "tooth-walking" label, and to break breathing holes into ice from below. Their tusks, which are found on both males and females, can extend to about three feet (one meter), and are, in fact, large canine teeth, which grow throughout their lives. Male walruses, or bulls, also employ their tusks aggressively to maintain territory and, during mating season, to protect their harems of females, or cows.
    The walrus' other characteristic features are equally useful. As their favorite meals, particularly shellfish, are found near the dark ocean floor, walruses use their extremely sensitive whiskers, called mustacial vibrissae, as detection devices. Their blubbery bodies allow them to live comfortably in the Arctic region—walruses are capable of slowing their heartbeats in order to withstand the polar temperatures of the surrounding waters.
    The two subspecies of walrus are divided geographically. Atlantic walruses inhabit coastal areas from northeastern Canada to Greenland, while Pacific walruses inhabit the northern seas off Russia and Alaska, migrating seasonally from their southern range in the Bering Sea—where they are found on the pack ice in winter—to the Chukchi Sea. Female Pacific walruses give birth to calves during the spring migration north.
    Only Native Americans are currently allowed to hunt walruses, as the species' survival was threatened by past overhunting. Their tusks, oil, skin, and meat were so sought after in the 18th and 19th centuries that the walrus was hunted to extinction in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and around Sable Island, off the coast of Nova Scotia.

  17. #17
    DaniCatBurger's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Malta's Divorce Referendum, 29/05/2011

    The referendum is an expression of their general will whatever they decide. If there will be no divorces in the future under Maltese jurisdiction, then more couples will likely live together without the papers or those who want a divorce will go to Italy for the time being until they change the law again.

    So if the majority of a country is in favour of exterminating a particular ethnic-minority for example, should the government obey simply because the people want it?
    I doubt Malta's constitution would allow a referendum that would contradict basic maltese laws.
    Last edited by DaniCatBurger; May 28, 2011 at 06:32 AM.
    שנאה היא לא ערך, גזענות היא לא הדרך




  18. #18

    Default Re: Malta's Divorce Referendum, 29/05/2011

    Quote Originally Posted by ♔Goodguy1066♔ View Post
    But what about democratic values? Isn't the government elected to serve the people, and to do what the people wish? Are all Western governments just elected oligarchies?
    Iran is a perfect exemple, when a government shouldnt have listened to the masses and religious groups, when personnal freedoms are in question.

    Not saying the Shah regime was a regime which listened to its people, but atleast you could have had a drink if you werent a religious muslim, women were reguarded as equals to men, flirting was allowed at 'bars' and so forth.

    I really dont see why both my neighbours ( probably the whole matlese population right there , jk coming from a similar country in size) should have a say, if I want to divorce my uncaring wife.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Malta's Divorce Referendum, 29/05/2011

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius Octavius Ceasar View Post
    I really dont see why both my neighbours ... should have a say, if I want to divorce my uncaring wife.
    I would not know why I should go to places where basic legal concepts contradict with my readings of general will and my ideas of commonsense.
    שנאה היא לא ערך, גזענות היא לא הדרך




  20. #20

    Default Re: Malta's Divorce Referendum, 29/05/2011

    Quote Originally Posted by ♔Goodguy1066♔ View Post
    But what about democratic values? Isn't the government elected to serve the people, and to do what the people wish? Are all Western governments just elected oligarchies?
    It might seem that they are, but you can still vote these people out. As long as they do not attempt to unlawfully maintain office or otherwise bypass the democratic system to keep themselves in power the people can still have the final say by electing someone else into the office who will work to change it back (even if this is generally a tougher task).

    Much of social progress unfortunately could never have came in many areas of the world if everything was up to a simple referendum. The people haven't lost all their power, but in the interest of the fact that the simple majority is not always shown to be right in the end sometimes elected representatives need to act in the best interest of all the people.

    If people really have a problem with that then there are still options for them to act to change it back. So modern democracy in practice is not simple mob rule, but the democratic process is still an effective means to affect change if the issue really warrants the majority utilizing it. To me that is what separates modern democracy from an oligarchy and really makes it far from a tyranny (especially because a majority can impose a tyranny too).

    That is why as soon as a Dove gets his hands on the peace process he should move quickly towards a peace with the Palestinians damn a referendum on any concessions, and the Palestinian Authority should do them same (but honestly the PA been secretly willing to do that for 40 years so just waiting on you Labor...).

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