TROM3 - Feedback and Suggestions

[Xander86]

I am in holidays, so the next version will not be out before the end of July.

OOOOH it is getting close to the end of July can't wait..... any sneak peaks as to what will be in the next version?

[Yarkis de Bodemloze]

OOOOH it is getting close to the end of July can't wait..... any sneak peaks as to what will be in the next version?

I am making good progress. I will release a beta first because of the numerous changes to gameplay. Just some finishing touches and I am ready to release it (probably this weekend).

[[G-Shock]]

If I can post a good piece of feedback here it is:

I've tackled the Legendary, Very Hard and Hard levels of TROM3 and I can say, at least as Shimazu, that in the first 2 cases the game is really impossible.
The upkeep levels are so high against the AI building scores of men and throwing them at you relentlessly, one army after the other that it is only a matter of time before you are utterly destroyed.
I can add to this... with no reason.

In this late very hard campaign, Shimazu has only Satsuma and Osumi and has yet been declared war by every single clan neighboring me. I certainly am no threat as long as I am at war with Ito who I can barely hold at bay.
Of course I start at war with Ito (who produces yari samurai like coconuts despite only having Hyuga province). Sagara has conquered Bungo and immediately declared war on me. Luckily Higo was captured by Shoni. In the meanwhile I have 3 trade ships producing money and I was trading with Chosokabe and Mori. Mori declared war on me... then I allied to Chosokabe, with marriage PLUS hostage exchange (my youngest son). Next turn, Chosokabe killed my son and declared war on me. Then Shoni ALSO declared war on me. Next step is QUIT.

In the hard campaign instead (which is progressing) I am beyond the realm divide, at war with all Japan but Chosokabe (been allied for long time).

I have noticed that the economy is entirely depending on trade with other clans which, in this situation, is really impossible. So despite holding half of Japan and possibly just 3 big armies (but all my provinces have markets, rice exchanges and guilds while all farms are maxed out with the equal fields level), my economy is totally stagnant. I can say the realm divide is excessive in its penalty but also that probably the trade component with non-japanese from the trade posts as well as the funds gained by selling unsold resources, should be a bigger factor because there's no income in these situations with the other japanese clans.

I can hope to keep the defenses high and slowly rebuild peace at least with Hojo or Takeda for new trade possibilities but technically, the penalty for the realm divide is just too big while a single ship blockading one of my home ports sends me packing in negative profit and honor damage (exactly as I said, economy is entirely trade-dependant but you have nobody to trade with except Chosokabe in my situation).

Just nothing else to add at this point. This mod is great.

[Yarkis de Bodemloze]

Tip: To keep your trade income high make vassalls you can trade with. Having vassals is very important.

Any other opinions on that matter? Anybody successfully beating the game with TROM3 on VH/L campaign difficulty?

[[G-Shock]]

Tip: To keep your trade income high make vassalls you can trade with. Having vassals is very important.

Any other opinions on that matter? Anybody successfully beating the game with TROM3 on VH/L campaign difficulty?

Yes but here is where the AI helps get into play. With 1 recruiting slot in most provinces you need to be constantly recruiting everywhere (one unit at a time per castle) so you need those provinces and if you vassalize this counts AGAINST the number of provinces needed.

Meanwhile, the ai without ever occupying a trade post slot... produces unlimited number of troops... I think Hard is "easy" but balanced under this aspect. However, yes. I will vasslize more.

[Kurisu Paifuaa]

If I can post a good piece of feedback here it is:

I've tackled the Legendary, Very Hard and Hard levels of TROM3 and I can say, at least as Shimazu, that in the first 2 cases the game is really impossible.
The upkeep levels are so high against the AI building scores of men and throwing them at you relentlessly, one army after the other that it is only a matter of time before you are utterly destroyed.
I can add to this... with no reason.

Tip: To keep your trade income high make vassalls you can trade with. Having vassals is very important.

Any other opinions on that matter? Anybody successfully beating the game with TROM3 on VH/L campaign difficulty?

I'm on my 5th or so attempt trying to get out of the early game playing Uesugi on VH campaign difficulty. I've set battle difficulty to normal to try to mitigate the effect of excessive casualties as this is more than offset by AI production bonuses and the tight economy in VH. As in G-Shock's case, I get worn down by AI numerical and quality advantage, unable to expand and defend.

Uesugi are a bit of a hard start with 5 direct road routes into Echigo. Four of those are potential threats and there are two overland routes to the east. The province is on the large side, but that works both ways as you can't cover enough ground in one turn to defend multiple castles with a single army (which is all you can afford prior to early expansion with TROM3@VH).

BTW here's a link to a nice map by TinCow over at the .org for those who haven't seen it. It displays the true nature of the S2 map which looks deceptively open. Really useful.

http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...nce-Access-Map

In any case, I generally go for the iron trade node prior to breaking out of Echigo while placating my neighbors with trade deals, alliance, access deals... whatever it takes to avoid needless declarations. I build up my army and infrastructure while watching for opportunities via trade link sight lines and a roaming monk. Selling military access for cash is also essential to that end. Jinbo's province to the west is pretty poor, so I'll make peace with them if I can afford it, rather than risking a poorly defended capital. Likewise with Takeda who typically end up with North Shinano which is both unremarkable and open to attack from multiple points. I've tried grabbing Sado early (northern island) for the gold mine, but the stack is already too large by the time I have resources to go there (again leaving me wide open to attack). That may still be the best option and I simply haven't played it correctly yet. Presently I'm playing towards establishing a front line along Echigo - Fukushima which gives you both coasts (with ports) defended from only two points looking westward (plus fertile farms and wood).

On the vassal suggestion, I think that's a good mid to late game strategy, but early on with delicate starting conditions that require alliance, the military obligation is a real albatross (e.g. I ally with Takeda and they immediately attack Yamanouchi ). In Uesugi's case, it might be better to consider the Yamanouchi tribute as a bonus and factor it out of your budget. Either that or go after them yourself (haven't gone that way yet )

The point of this is that I'm getting outright murdered playing attentively on VH as Uesugi. My game usually falls apart sometime in the mid to late 1550s. Recruitment, upkeep and building costs are so tight against revenue I can't make any headway without exposing myself to attack from diplomatically finicky AI neighbors with serious production advantages. Gaining territory, growing your army based on that and then losing territory is also instant financial death. I also can't use my favorite ninja/metsuke or monk/metsuke combo tactics to create rebels or kill generals and then bribe the army for a quick troop influx (usually too expensive) At the same time, this is the most fun I've had with Shogun+TROM and I'm not convinced the current balance at VH is impossible (in the case of a Uesugi start anyway). Map planning, diplomacy, build choices and everything else becomes that much more interesting. I'm also paying closer attention to random events and hostilities between other factions, looking for any small opportunity. Having started 5 campaigns in a short span and in the same location, the true randomness of the game is becoming more evident (and useful).

Not sure I can make a suggestion at this point. Maybe a minor bump to the base income would make unstoppable vassal death less crippling. Typically, I'm already committed somewhere else when they need help. I'll need a few more tries to say more. At least my games are getting longer

[Chrysantheme]

if you go against yamanouchi as uesugi, you will get a relationship penality against all clans that doesnt seem to go away.

in my games, i just abandon the yamanouchi to keep the takeda ally.

[AClockworkOrange]

Anybody successfully beating the game with TROM3 on VH/L campaign difficulty?

No. Well, not right now. I'm trying it on vh with Takeda. I'm allied with Date, who have the northern two regions, and I've spread south occupying roughly 20 provinces south of Date. I just got past the realm divide and it's about to fall apart. I'm spread too thin as I have three landing invasions (all full stacks), and I have Ikko and Hattori constantly pounding me from the south. I'm losing money now every turn since it's me and Date (hardly worth mentioning since they haven't done squat) vs everyone else. And, I lost all my trade ships and navies after the realm divide since they got pounced on by every navy. I had trade with most everyone before the realm divide, nothing afterwards. Of course, this might all be different if I were a better player :-p

However, I have had some epic battles, some of the best I've played. And, I was able to win my first campaign ever as the Mori on hard.

Thanks for the tip about vassals. I'll try it in the future.

[[G-Shock]]

That's right since the game, wrongly in my opinion, is too inclined economically towards trade with other clans, neglecting non-jap trade routes and in-clan trades, we need to vassalize to keep the trade routes active. However, I am not too concerned about this problem IF the new farm system is implemented. Those farms will then become as important economically as they should be.

Now the final feedback:

1) The xp system endorsed with the new Bushido tech tree is great, however, it seems too easy to produce and keep going some sort of super units with 4 or 5 xp levels that mess up too much with the rest. These units while still taking losses are never really disbanded to high losses and their replenishments don't count against the fact that new guys can't be veterans. So... while the XP should decrease (and it doesn't) the unit keeps improving. I recommend INCREASING the auto-disband for losses after battle as well as INCREASE (by a lot in the case of cavalry who kill easily the routing troops) the XP threshold levels (the # of kills required to achieve a new level).

2) Diplomacy has several flaws with clans being overly aggressive. While most declarations of war do not follow a real attack, this hurts trade by a lot and, sometimes (especially at the hardest levels) this makes the game unplayable. The first thing i noticed (I am only 90% sure not 100% sure) is that the modifier "an enemey of my enemy is my friend" is totally missing. Considering it's very hard to get an ally and that this factor should really affect relations, I think it should be a very strong one, yet I can't recall seeing it even though I am sure I searched for it. Has it been mistakenly removed?
2.1) Another factor that should affect more the relationships is when you attack an ally or vassal of some other clan. In this case the penalty in dip relations should be higher.
2.3) What I am totally pissed about is the dip penalty for losing a territory you are trading with. IE if I am trading with mori clan and mori loses Aki, I lose the trade route but, also, we get a penalty for breaking treaties and that's improper. If such penalty has to stay, I recommend LOWERING it. That route wasn't cancelled arbitrarily, it was someone else who intervened and it can't affect the relations of the 2 clans involved in the trade.
2.4) The realm divide penalty is TOO STRONG.
2.5) A major check in the starting diplomatic relationships is required. The friend status is the way to stop major clans from dying too soon and surely not the vassalization of oda-tokugawa. In case of vassals, I've seen vassals growing 10 times stronger than their masters without going against him. This means the dip bonus in relationships is too strong between vassal and master. Furthenmore the STARTING status of vassal stops the master from increasing its number of provinces and this is a major con. Add 1 starting troop to the clan you want to save, work on the starting relationships at beginning but then let the battlefield choose who lives and who dies.
2.6) Check the real existence of diplomatic bonuses for retainers. I do not see the modifiers applied if I pick a retainer that helps with the diplomatic relations (not sure about which retainer but I think NONE of them work or... if they do, you can't see the modifier in the dip screen)
3) AI doesn't garrison much. Darth solved this problem by lowering the repression factors and I think it's a very good idea. This also slows down the steamroll factor both for the AI and for the player.
4) Reduce visibility of armies (navies and agents too), let the player who runs blindly into the unknown pay for it. This pulls the scouting of ninjas into a greater importance and helps the AI set ambushes.
5) The religious conversion factors are too big. If the Nanban port influences 1.5% pop per season then the 1st level monastery should AT LEAST counter it with 1.5% influence as well. You can't have the WHOLE pop of a region converted in just 5 years. It takes 10 or 20, especially in Japan with its obscurantistic view of the gaijin. Be advised the monastery (2nd lev) information doesn't appear in the tooltip (you don't know what you get if you buy it though the cyclopedia lists everything correctly. The same goes with the castles, not sure if lev3 or 4 are missing the information tooltip on the top of the castle icon leftmost corner).
6) Have you thought about religious buildings helping the economy? A slight increase in money (+50 per building level) would be great.
7) At least at the hard level the autoresolve is a bit off. Losses during offensive siege are the most evident. They should be extreme and they aren't.
8) Can you make the AI vassalize more?
9) Check missile ranges:
Teppo: 100yds deadly accuracy
Bow Sam: 200yds medium accuracy
Bow Sam Cav: 75yds very accurate
Bow Ashi: 125 yds poor accuracy
10) I only found unit caps with the catapults but I suppose there's caps for all units. The armies the AI throws aat you are extremely well balanced (congrats!) but in my opinion the number of samurai within each samurai unit are too high. I.E. 120 Ysam equal 120 Bow Ashi. Ashi should be much more numerous than that or... Sam much less numerous. This is not about max number of units but about how many men each unit has.

[Hetzen]

Been a long time TW fan, but only recently picked up Shogun2.

My all time favorite TW experience was actually Empire with the Imperial Splendour II mod, truly a fantastic mod. I decided on TROM3 for Shogun as it had a similar emphasis on difficulty, realism, and faction diversity.

The pros of TROM are many. I like the additional difficulty, better faction bonuses, new units, techs, and lessening of the rock-paper-scissor combat balance. The new features on the horizon: faction units, AoR, and enhanced resource economy, all look fantastic and will greatly improve the game.

I do have some concerns/suggestions though.

First up, I feel that the current naval combat yields very poor gameplay. Not the actual combat, that's great, but campaign fleet management. Currently ships are dirt cheap but will bleed you dry with upkeep. While some naval power is useful, especially protection mid-game trade, ultimately they simply cost too much to keep up. I'd love to blockade Shikoku island, or all my opponents trade ports, but such meaningful naval objectives require many fleet with large upkeep. It is nearly impossible to do more damage to your opponent with a large navy than you do to yourself by footing the bill. Burning some enemy ports isn't much compared to the thousands of koku per turn they're costing you. Currently with TROM3 every time I hit Realm Divide I simply scuttle all my ships. Warships, trade ships, all of them. They simply cost too much upkeep for any strategic benefit.

I'd like TROM to take a page out of IS2's book. Actually, in terms of naval gameplay, I'd like them to take the whole damn book. IS2 improved navies but making ships much more expensive, but dramatically reducing upkeep. This made building a navy an investment, but one you can later use to protect your interests. Unless the player has a lot of time and koku, such fleets take awhile to form up and are both more meaningful and more useful to the player.

IS2 also put a cap on the number of trade ships, although this was partly due to bad Empire CAI which would compose battle fleets containing numerous trading vessels.

My second complaint is with unit caps. I like unit caps, I like a greater focus on ashigaru. But the current system is just too restrictive. Shimazu daisho samurai and Uesugi monks are great, but after 3-4 units they are at the cap, and during mid/late game you consider yourself lucky if you even get to see them in combat. Every campaign, once I start preparing for realm divide I end up with multiple all-ashigaru armies, and that makes for boring armies and boring battles.

I propose that dojos add to the recruitment cap in a similar way to agent buildings. A tech 1 katana dojo adds +1 daisho cap. A tech 2 dojo adds +2, and a master dojo is +3. This adds what I feel TROM needs most, unit cap scalability.

If you have a level 1 katana school in your single home province you can recruit 1 daisho samurai. You can upgrade it to a level 2 school and recruit a second daisho. Or you can capture a second province and build a second level 1 school for +2 daisho. Two provinces both with level 2 schools? You're up to +4 daisho, which corresponds to TROM's current cap. Late game and you can have many schools in many provinces, which will scale more fluidly to the actual number of armies you are fielding.

This also gives more options to the player. If they want more samurai they can capture more provinces and build more schools, or they can tech up and build higher level schools. This also presents more options to the player; do they want to use new provinces for economic buildings or military ones to keep more samurai in their armies?

I want the bread and butter of armies to be ashigaru, but I also want some tactical samurai in EVERY army. I don't want to hit the cap on my first army and then degenerate to dull late game mass ashigaru spam.

Anyhow, keep up the good work Yarkis, the development updates are looking great.

[Xander86]

I propose that dojos add to the recruitment cap in a similar way to agent buildings. A tech 1 katana dojo adds +1 daisho cap. A tech 2 dojo adds +2, and a master dojo is +3. This adds what I feel TROM needs most, unit cap scalability.

I would love this to but i have noted in some of the other forums Yarkis has stated that this is unavailable and that is why he had to hard cap.

I haven't gotten far with the game but so far i have to get used to all the flags on screen. i see a couple of armies running around and say t. only to realise that it is 1 or 2 units. it will take a while to get used to.

On a seperate note i must say well done so far Yarkis and team as the whole Ashigaru tech load out is a great way to improve them i have played as Shimazu and actually dominated early because i just loaded up on the ashigaru tech tree and pumped out yari and yumi units. now to just catch the economy up and sit/rebalance...

Question what is this realm divide that i keep hearing about? what is it and when does it usually occur

[Whiskeyjack]

There seems to be something seriously wrong with recruitment. I started a few campaigns and the archer spam seems as bad if not worse than vanilla. It's commonplace for me to be fighting stacks with 70-80% archers. In fact the only battle i had where ai had less than 50% archers was the rebel stacks that you fight on the first turn. Any plans to fix this? The only other mod i am using is a unit card one in case you are wondering.

[Totalheadache]

There seems to be something seriously wrong with recruitment. I started a few campaigns and the archer spam seems as bad if not worse than vanilla. It's commonplace for me to be fighting stacks with 70-80% archers. In fact the only battle i had where ai had less than 50% archers was the rebel stacks that you fight on the first turn. Any plans to fix this? The only other mod i am using is a unit card one in case you are wondering.

not experienced that myself with this mod.

p.s getting close to finishing a campaign as Tokugawa. Lost a few provinces but now rdy to finish off the takeda and then take kyoto. shoni are strong but have excellent relations with them..have found this mod on hard not amazingly dificult but nonetheless a challenge.

i too suffered from poor income even though i had 12 provinces and a trade node...however was at war with the shogunate which really hurt re constant ninja/metsuke actions. now am up to around 9k per turn...

[Xander86]

There seems to be something seriously wrong with recruitment. I started a few campaigns and the archer spam seems as bad if not worse than vanilla. It's commonplace for me to be fighting stacks with 70-80% archers. In fact the only battle i had where ai had less than 50% archers was the rebel stacks that you fight on the first turn. Any plans to fix this? The only other mod i am using is a unit card one in case you are wondering.

I noticed this to but only with the minor clans maybe it has something to do with the prefferd build options for their clan ie they seem to like bow houses and i notice they usually go for the monk temple.

It makes it a bit easy early on as you can spam some cavalry and mop them up. especially how you can place light cavalry anywhere on the battle map

Once i had expanded out and was meeting larger clans the units started to get more varied.

[Whiskeyjack]

@Xander

Yeah mate, i continued my campaign and as you say things got a bit better, but like you also said it does make the early battles a bit too easy which is a shame because its otherwise a fairly tough mod.

[Xander86]

@Xander

Yeah mate, i continued my campaign and as you say things got a bit better, but like you also said it does make the early battles a bit too easy which is a shame because its otherwise a fairly tough mod.

Yarkis is there someway this could be looked at? maybe putting priorities in for minor clans on what structures to build to get a variety of units? or making more units (AI) units available with the lesser buildings. I can't remember but i think you said it previously that it would be a lot of work to introduce AI units..... otherwise what else is there? as Whisky said it makes the start a bit easier currently

[[G-Shock]]

Did not experience archer (or any other unit) spam from the AI.

[Primogenitus]

Me neither. All AI armies, from both minor and major clans, always consist of a fairly good mix of units in my campaigns.

[Whiskeyjack]

Hmm, i thought this problem had fixed itself but turns out the armies i saw without mass archers are a fluke. Not sure why other people have been having different experiences. The last campaign i played was Mori, and out of 20+ battles of any significant size(i.e more or less full stacks) i have seen only two melee samurai and no cavalry(except generals). I have however seen an abundance of samurai archers from every faction i have fought, typically i am seeing anything from 6-10 units a stack(usually on the higher end). Does anyone have any idea why I am having this problem and others are not? I have a clean install fullly patched and the only other mod i am using is Bullgod's unit icons.

Otherwise the mod is great, it's really proffessionally done. Also maybe its just me but I found the mod really tough going(a good thing), it' seems much harder than anything else i have played.

[Xander86]

I only found the archer spam with the minor factions i encountered early game.... seems weird it isn't across the board, i have only played trom3 shogun.... not even vanilla

Otherwise the mod is great, it's really proffessionally done. Also maybe its just me but I found the mod really tough going(a good thing), it' seems much harder than anything else i have played.

That is the one thing i have always loved about Trom it is realistic but still fun and enjoyable but also that the game is designed to be challenging... not usually impossible (Shogun VH/L well.... i havn't faired well here) but it just makes me want to come back for more butt kickings