Shogun 2 Realism + (S2R+) | Update v3.0 - 25th October 2013

[aljonzc]

It occurs before I installed DarthMod and Modify it a bit it...
That's Why I installed DarthMod and Modify it a bit hoping that it would fix it but nothing happens...

( SORRY FOR MY POOR ENGLISH )

[Tristand]

Patches? I got the steam version so shouldnt it have automatic updates?

[cur]

i have installed your mod some days ago an must say its a very impressive work! it gives the game a real strategically and challenging depth. you should get a price for intelligent gameplay

[GERMANICUS]

i have installed your mod some days ago an must say its a very impressive work! it gives the game a real strategically and challenging depth. you should get a price for intelligent gameplay

I concur with your statement and REP you for your choice of this most venerable mod!
I suggest for added enjoyment try out Two Socks music/sound mod:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=445112
and Anton III superb Banner/overhaul graphics mod:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=475348

[cur]

hello GERMANICUS,

i installed both mods, which you have recommended, and they are really a gameplay-boost for the S2R+mod! the only problem with occurred now is, that it is not possible anymore to choose clans in the custombattles. there is only the last choice possible i made before i installed antons mod and if i try to change this, there shows onlay a transparent field when i move the mouse about the allready chosen clan ?? is this a known issue?
here the combination of the used mods:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/408/modkombi.png/

best regards,
cur

[cur]

hello GERMANICUS,

the problem is soved. ít was a known issue of antons mod and he presented a solution for it in his mod-thread.

Ok I found the problem. I play games at 1920x1080. With that resolution there is plenty of room to show all major, minor and custom factions spanning the Sengoku and Gempei periods as well as my custom work. When I lowered the resolution to something like 1280x1024 the problem occured. This looks to be a problem with lesser resolutions being unable to show all clans, so it simply shows none.

Quote: Originally Posted by Anton93 For now, here is a solution for non-ROTS players:
-Download Pack File Manager and install it as directed (refer to the PFM thread in the mod workshop for more information).
-Open the main abvom pack file.
-Follow the file path "db > factions_tables" and delete "abvom_van2_factions". Just click on it once and hit the "del" key.
-Go file > save as... and save the pack file to S2's data folder. The fix above still stands. Anyone that could see all factions in version 1.6 of this mod should get things working with that fix.

If you use my 'All Factions Playable' mod to access the new minors in custom battles, you, too, will have to do some fixing. Use the tutorial above, but delete "gempei_factions" if you only want to use sengoku minors, or delete "sengoku_factions" if you only want to use the new gempei minors.

sry to bother you!

best regards,
cur

[GERMANICUS]

hello GERMANICUS,

the problem is soved. ít was a known issue of antons mod and he presented a solution for it in his mod-thread.

sry to bother you!

best regards,
cur

Glad you have sorted out your issue re Custom battles, you will find that any mod Antonlll releases comes with a helpful hints to sort out anyconflicts a user might have.
Oh yes(forgot to mention) the final bit of Eye for you enhanced S2R+ experience is the most tasty portrait/events graphics mod Ialso use by the Ying the Duke Qin.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=443297

[Kensai56]

Just out of curiosity, how come you havent changed the unit formations to something more fluid and realistic looking? Watching men march around in gigantic perfect rectangles just throws me right off.

[StukaJr]

So I gave the mod a try and it left me wondering what part of "realism" this mod claims?

Japanese armor was mostly made of lacquered bamboo, rope and leather - covering 1/3 of fighter's body. Some percentage of that "protection" included steel, bits of iron and other wood... Most of the composition is "slatted" - great for absorbing blows, bad for piercing strikes. Armor was designed to protect the vital areas from melee attacks while leaving joints completely unprotected to allow freedom of motion - great for movement, bad for standing around and absorbing raining steel to neck /elbow / feet / knees (that have 0 armor). Most interesting design of Japanese armor is that it protected vital areas less likely to be defended from melee attack - leaving juicy exposed areas (intended to be protected by parrying strikes) for plunging projectiles to sink into.

So when I stand Naginata Samurai under barrage of 4 x bow units until they run out of arrows and I only lose 10 samurai at the end of it all, I wonder "which Akira Kurosawa movie did you not watch?"

More on that - I thought the idea of mods was "challenging gameplay", not making AI more exploitable? Send one unit with highest armor ranking in front of defending archers in a siege - mop up with melee scrapper units after the poor saps are out of sharpened sticks. Makes sieges less complicated than "vanilla" - AI is just is just as dumb and I no longer have to flank the pesky archer units (plus, someone broke 3/4 of their sticks). Oh, wait - now some AI units run out of castles to be taken piece meal by my forces... Huzzah to the tiphhaaa!

Archery was 1/3 of bushido training - if bow samurai only brought three arrows to the fight, I can only expect they make all three count... I guess my 60 samurai that killed 3 ashigaru standing in a tight knit square with all of their arrows are now filling the ranks of Ikku Ikka as Ronin in the "vanilla" campaign.

So all of that imagery of fields of bodies littered in arrows were just a mythos? The fact that Mongolian invaders simply routed Japanese swordsmen (twice) with their longer ranged short bows was just a footnote to how useless the archery was on the battlefield of the era? Or the fact that samurai complained dearly of how unfair the matchlocks / bows / spears / pebbles on the ground were to their skill with the sword?

And kenjutsu is all about range - swordsman is only good in the range of their sword strike, though dead in the range of the naginata/archer... Maybe the armor design left their joints and most of their extremities free of encumbrance and protection to close in with the ranged opponents? (not sure if melee units move slower due to the mod, but I thought most of my guys were doing a shuffle). Giving samurai more armor than French knights at Agincourt seems like gameplay shifted towards guys wanting to bang their sticks together?

Melee combat seems to drag on - my samurai vs enemy samurai of the same rank, pretty much 1 on 1, with helping of 2 of my spear ashigaru and my general piling on while on horse back. 1 minute later, they are still dancing - my nearby archer ashigaru (that were out of sharpened sticks to throw yet not in the fight) had enough of it and decided to do some shameful display and run. Another 30 seconds later and 20 guys expired, the opposition has decided to retire - next time they should put edges on their swords.

On the nitpicky part - giving access to late-game units but in limited quantity 1st turn in the game seems cheap - I feel as bad as AI on Very Hard/Legendary setting. I have access to recruit bandits, turn 1 as Uesegi - AI seems to have no equal units to challenge me with and performing horribly with good units still means a win...

This is first impression of after first 1-2 hours of play, so it could possibly win me over after trying it some more but the first thoughts are

[DeMolay]

So I gave the mod a try and it left me wondering what part of "realism" this mod claims?

Japanese armor was mostly made of lacquered bamboo, rope and leather - covering 1/3 of fighter's body. Some percentage of that "protection" included steel, bits of iron and other wood... Most of the composition is "slatted" - great for absorbing blows, bad for piercing strikes. Armor was designed to protect the vital areas from melee attacks while leaving joints completely unprotected to allow freedom of motion - great for movement, bad for standing around and absorbing raining steel to neck /elbow / feet / knees (that have 0 armor). Most interesting design of Japanese armor is that it protected vital areas less likely to be defended from melee attack - leaving juicy exposed areas (intended to be protected by parrying strikes) for plunging projectiles to sink into.

So when I stand Naginata Samurai under barrage of 4 x bow units until they run out of arrows and I only lose 10 samurai at the end of it all, I wonder "which Akira Kurosawa movie did you not watch?"

More on that - I thought the idea of mods was "challenging gameplay", not making AI more exploitable? Send one unit with highest armor ranking in front of defending archers in a siege - mop up with melee scrapper units after the poor saps are out of sharpened sticks. Makes sieges less complicated than "vanilla" - AI is just is just as dumb and I no longer have to flank the pesky archer units (plus, someone broke 3/4 of their sticks). Oh, wait - now some AI units run out of castles to be taken piece meal by my forces... Huzzah to the tiphhaaa!

Archery was 1/3 of bushido training - if bow samurai only brought three arrows to the fight, I can only expect they make all three count... I guess my 60 samurai that killed 3 ashigaru standing in a tight knit square with all of their arrows are now filling the ranks of Ikku Ikka as Ronin in the "vanilla" campaign.

So all of that imagery of fields of bodies littered in arrows were just a mythos? The fact that Mongolian invaders simply routed Japanese swordsmen (twice) with their longer ranged short bows was just a footnote to how useless the archery was on the battlefield of the era? Or the fact that samurai complained dearly of how unfair the matchlocks / bows / spears / pebbles on the ground were to their skill with the sword?

And kenjutsu is all about range - swordsman is only good in the range of their sword strike, though dead in the range of the naginata/archer... Maybe the armor design left their joints and most of their extremities free of encumbrance and protection to close in with the ranged opponents? (not sure if melee units move slower due to the mod, but I thought most of my guys were doing a shuffle). Giving samurai more armor than French knights at Agincourt seems like gameplay shifted towards guys wanting to bang their sticks together?

Melee combat seems to drag on - my samurai vs enemy samurai of the same rank, pretty much 1 on 1, with helping of 2 of my spear ashigaru and my general piling on while on horse back. 1 minute later, they are still dancing - my nearby archer ashigaru (that were out of sharpened sticks to throw yet not in the fight) had enough of it and decided to do some shameful display and run. Another 30 seconds later and 20 guys expired, the opposition has decided to retire - next time they should put edges on their swords.

On the nitpicky part - giving access to late-game units but in limited quantity 1st turn in the game seems cheap - I feel as bad as AI on Very Hard/Legendary setting. I have access to recruit bandits, turn 1 as Uesegi - AI seems to have no equal units to challenge me with and performing horribly with good units still means a win...

This is first impression of after first 1-2 hours of play, so it could possibly win me over after trying it some more but the first thoughts are

You are bound to be disappointed if you take Kurosawa movies as historical accuracy reference , he made brilliant movies but the focus is not really historical accuracy in his films

Joking aside , if you played only 1-2 hours , the archers you had access to are basic levies of farmers without any experience of war whatsoever in between the sowing and harvest season , they have a typical accuracy between 10 and 20 ingame , those are indeed only effectual on unarmoured troops , if at all , and very low morale .

I think that one has to consider a few elements before drawing conclusion on archers , first of all the killing range with a typical short yumi which is below 30 meters on average on an armoured target , the amount of training of those archers , and the type of arrows used

The thing i would agree with you on , is the fact that Bow samurai could have had more arrows , however there was a balance choice to make , because at the end of the day , it is a game and if you give 20 arrows to bow samurai who are equal to other samurai units in melee , then there is just no point at all to half the tech tree and to recruit another type of unit

This mod intends to be more credible historically speaking than the vanilla version, but it cannot be a simulation of Sengoku period , cause otherwise , you would have only Ashigaru and Cavalry units, with the Taisho retinue and maybe a few units of Sohei here and there .

Going full Reality would mean all those samurais units wouldn't exist and instead , samurai and ji-samurai would be blended in ashigaru units and high ranked samurais in taisho retinues on horse . You'd also need to scrape the tech tree and give each clan his own recruitment and economy model with all units with unique stats , and at least triple the upkeep everytime you campaign outside your lands , it would also be much harsher with desertions and betrayal if you don't reward your kashins sufficiently etc , in short , you would need a brand new game basically , with more in depth management and gameplay mechanisms

About archers , i wrote an article in the past about it , you had 3 main types of Yumi used at this period , the Hankyu used mainly for hunting and during sieges with very short range but very accurate , the short yumi composite bow , about 1.30meters in length , used in great quantity and often equipping ashigaru units, easy to maintain , and the 2meters asymetrical longbow which was very expensive , difficult to maintain (easily bent when misused , susceptible to wheather etc ) , with a longer range , used by the wealthier part of the bushi class

Now those samurai who used the longest type (let's call it Daikyu although it had a different name back then ) were not your average low income samurai , and usually had a horse (not necessarily a warhorse ) which carried sometimes more than two quivers of arrows (on average 30 arrows per quiver ) for them .

However these samurais were a minority on the battlefield , not rich of influent enough to be part of the retinues of the Daymio or commanding ashigaru units , and not poor enough to fight next to the lower class of the ji-samurai blended in ashigaru units as foot soldiers . Instead the majority of samurai wielding a bow would not necessarily use the Daikyu , and would not carry a large amount of arrows or have a horse doing it , especially when campaigning offensively in enemy territory . Again the mod tried to find a balance , i respect your opinion if you don't like the way it is done , but giving plenty of arrows to bow samurais would make other units irrelevant .

The images of battlefields littered with arrows is still true in this mod , in order to have an impressive archer force you need to have all the archer tech tree , hunting lodge and preferably a region with crafts etc ..
You will then manage in the end to have several ashigaru units of 120men and 75 men (up to more than 25% of your 20 units stack ) , to be quite accurate and deadly , you also have access to wako/bandits archers units who i noticed were quite lethal with more experience


To be honest , i would agree that armours are pretty powerful in the mod , but that is to compensate for the small size of samurai units who are supposed to be blended in ashigaru units or at least close to them , but one must take into account the limits of the engine , if you want to simulate realistic archer casualties , it is dependent on so many things ( wind , strength of the archer , morale/focus/accuracy of the archer, type of arrows ;the Japanese had at least 15 different types of bamboo arrowheads .. ; , type of bow , type of armour , angle of penetration , range at which the penetration occurs , which type of armour material it penetrates etc ) that it is difficult to get it right . In vanilla it was the complete opposite with laser guided adamantium arrows .. surely this mod could not do worse

When you say that battles last too long , here i respectfully don't understand , battles used to last hours in real life , at Sekigahara , the battle started at 10.00 oclock , at 12.00 pm , the outcome was still uncertain and the melee very much disputed . The mod tried to make battle last a bit longer in melee also to give arquebuses and flanking manoeuvre a more tactical role


I think the fair criticism i would share with you is about the AI (which does not seem to build its armies properly in some cases or find the right way to developp their regions quickly , and in some cases lacks aggressivity apart fromthe Takeda and Mori clans ) , that's why i'd be grateful if someone can point me to an AI mod that is compatible with S2R+ , thank you in advance

[GERMANICUS]

Excellant response DeMolay your view was well balanced and insightful!

@StukaJr just remember that these mod smith`s who devote their time voluntarily and deserve recognition as well as critique.

[GERMANICUS]

@ DeMolay
"I think the fair criticism i would share with you is about the AI (which does not seem to build its armies properly in some cases or find the right way to developp their regions quickly , and in some cases lacks aggressivity apart fromthe Takeda and Mori clans ) , that's why i'd be grateful if someone can point me to an AI mod that is compatible with S2R+ , thank you in advance"
I dont think there is a CAI standalone atm, I suggest that you give TROM v1.6 a go it has altered many of the deficiences that you point out.
A quote from the features list:
Improved CAI
Improved building logic for the CAI that allows it to build all late game units.
Improved recruitment behaviour for better balanced armies.
Improved CAI agent behaviour.
Scripted help for major clans to give them a better survivabilty in campaigns.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=517997

[StukaJr]

So I've played about 100 turns on Hard as Uesegi - v.2.96.3 no other mods.

Consider this a bit of a bug report, not criticism.

- I fought one defensive siege battle, when enemy faction came in to take back from me. Many factions declared war on me but their armies never came (some 20+ turns). Most of my land is completely undefended and nobody attacked. Some sides that declared on me, asked for peace 5-6 turns after without ever sending an attack. One army came all the way to my fortress, metsuke my ninja after failed army sabotage and then army walked back into its province (metsuke had to walk home alone)!

- Samurai (and nothing else) appear a key to victory. In first battle against the revolt, I held all units + generals back and won the battle just with my green Yari Samurai that I've started campaign with. Chewed through first spear peasant unit while archers were shooting my guys straight in the back from point blank. Turned around and chopped the archers down into a route. Immediately run on remaining spear peasant unit, while swatting at interfering "samurai" (ahem) light cavalry. Lost less than 30 guys, kills well over 350 when I hit "end battle" and I wasn't chasing down any routed units. No tactics to speak of and my yari were in full exhaustion.

- Throughout the 90+ turns, lots of factions remained - no faction had more than 3 territories. Towards the end of my playthrough, every faction has 1-2 huge armies, each with 4 one star generals. Very little factions were at war with each other, most were allied with their direct neighbors. Almost every army was identical - 4 green generals, 1-3 various samurai, loads of peasants with spears/bows. At least 4 factions I discovered had Nanban cannons. It became a bit of annoyance on a short campaign as every faction was running out the clock while being a roadbump - most notably, every faction was pretty much a mirror of the one before.

- Complaint on archers remains - 3 units of veteran (3-4 chevrons) samurai archers (ronin and monk) with bow expertise, extra ammo (4 arrows each) and my 3 generals giving encouragement to each. One instance - fire on samurai retainers and get 2 casualties for the few hundred arrows (fire/whistling). Trying the same on reload vs 1 unit of yari ashigaru created 7 casualties. Samurai archers with 10 arrows don't seem to do better against other samurai, they are at it just a lot longer.

- Restrictions on units seemed a bit tight. Waiting a bunch of turns to produce a single unit by building a required structure/skill tree only to find that there were other restrictions why that was not going to happen. Owning 13 provinces allowed me to cobble together one and a half armies worth the armies of AI enemy that had 2 provinces with only 1 building each... It wasn't exactly the most easy to grasp concept and I'm afraid I failed by trial.

- Tough armor and most victories by route (instead of slaughtering a bunch of guys on the field) translates to "veteran" units that marched through a dozen battles and are only at 2-3 chevrons...

- AI was rather lax in the subterfuge department - enemy ninjas were mostly absent. Warring factions sent monks and metsuke after my monks and metsuke, though no sabotages/assassinations to speak of.

_______________________________________

Short(er) complaint section:

As for handling my complaints of "historical accuracy" - it is agreeable that real feudal japan combat is unattainable through the given rank and file system. I'm quite well versed with the fact that "samurai" was a title that could be held by a 17 year old youth or 40 year old veteran of many wars - dressed in cotton or armor. I also understand that historical accuracy is achieved via paring down things into averages via existing representations.

So when one determines an average, I'm just pointing out that (IMHO) the bar is set a bit high for best available examples of period armor while using the lowest possible bar for the archers. On my proper playthrough, I've been mainly using samurai units as even ranged ashigaru were a zero sum game with occasional kill on some fodder. Having fielded the best archery units available, I'm not seeing the co-relation of "this is how things happened in similar historical battle and this is how we are representing this"... I'm literally staring down the field of a thousand corpses where less than 10 guys were killed by arrows - that's less than 1%... How representative is it of the place that archery held in the professional warrior circle?

Then there is a question of my opinion on the mod, whether I found the game improved, more fun, challenging etc... As for realism, I can only compare my playthrough to the internet sources and various books written on the subject and whether I can come to the similar results within the mod structure.

Finally, I actually care about the mod and set aside quite a bit of time to playtest it as I would a normal TW game, discover things for myself and write a report. I hope I have described something that is not intended - if indeed bows were intended for staking tomatoes, then it's not my mod to try and change anybody's mod (maybe just a bit of ridicule).

[DaVinci]

Well, thanks for comments, all. The mod is in beta stage, and i haven't touched it since the last release (october or so, 2011). Of course there are still some balancing things open, but i was fed up with modding this game.

@ StukaJr

What you miss, ie. the big (earlier) AI stacks with lots of Samurai, i had it all in the different/nearly uncountable versions during the mod evolution, and it's very easy to depicting this again (ie. increase cashflow and decrease unit recruitment limitation, voila, AI has more crafty units (but you as human player will usually be superior in this regard, no matter what) - point is, the challenge is less increased then, because you, the human player always benefits from a higher cashflow / lower recruitment limitation more than the AI, and recently i ended up with the current design, where i tried a balance between financial challenge and a possible campaign victory towards the end of the campaign time ( which must not be the final design, ie. if i allow more units just via a way higher cashflow etc., then a steamroller-effect in the one or other way is clearly increased, for AI and again most notable for the human player, again: i had it all ... edit: to find the right economical model is one of the most difficult parts in balancing, if it is without scripting, with scripting it is quite easy or just easier) ... the current gameplay, which was indeed designed to increase the maintainance of (major) factions vs. quick dead factions (with focus on certain major factions) ... besides all this, other mods additionally help the AI with scripting .lua modding (spawning units), while S2R+ is free of any scripting or startpos modding.

Also, what you describe might be valid then for Uesugi chosen, a faction which has compared to other certain majors, some good advantages. The campaign testing happened limited to certain factions, and i personally tested certain factions all the way, and couldn't experience the same what you describe (regarding the campaign flow). Also, you say you have chosen the Short Campaign, actually that mode was never tested nor a point for the design.

Archers: Just read again what DeMolay has written, he is well versed in Sengoku history, better than most others on these forums - and it is obvious you are not, sorry ("Kurosawa").
Despite this what history tells us about arrow-kills/efficience, the design here is clearly a gameplay decision to avoid AI exploitation in this regard - as we all know, AI is always in disadvantage when it comes to combat-tactics, and there is no real way to enhance that (combat AI or BAI) actually via modding, we can only make some workarounds/influence modding. What will you do if the AI flanks you or whatever, with "proper" Ashi archers (with better lethality and much more ammo) ? You'll (human player) speed up vs. them with your horse unit(s), which should be superior to them in melee charges, all the way - AI has no chance whatsoever in this relation, even if Ashigaru archers have much more morale, they'll be slaughtered unless you make them unrealistic strong, and: the mod unit description says clearly that Samurai archers are not archers but usual Samurai, so you can't count them in (and the time of the traditional samurai archer warefare, usually mounted, was over in this period). Vanilla or most other mods which allow archer-battles (with "infinite" and devastating arrows) are extreme boring to me, to say the least. Might be arrows can get a tad more lethality, but then again, it'll help the human player at most. Edit: Sieges? This (better archers) makes a castle much more a death-trap as it is in S2R+, just where this possible exploitation is pretty much limited, and this is valid for an assaulter or a defender. Anyways, as i playtested/balanced the combat mode, i was overtrumped here and there by the AI in this mod (siege and field), and i'm a pretty experienced TW player, of course given the AI deploys enough proper units.

Your opener "what's so realism?", just read again the mod descriptions, but it already initially speaks of a special mix of realism and gameplay decisions.

---

Edit: I think, if i touch the mod again, i'll at least increase recruitment options to certain stages in the campaign-flow, which might enhance the AI recruiting enough proper units, just quicker.

[StukaJr]

I have clearly used "Kurosawa movies" as a derisive pun - no need to dismiss my criticism based on that (though it would be easy). Though to give credit where it's due - Kurosawa's portrayal of siege warfare is a lot more historically accurate than TW's run up the walls or go home. Erecting earthworks, barrages, siege towers, tunneling under the walls - all means of warfare possibly necessitated by effectiveness of defender's ability with ranged weapons. Design is historically driven by function and necessity.

I really like the aspect of some of the modifications and the direction the mod - though of an opinion that some of the babies were thrown out with the bath water. I also respect undertaking in lua with no debug tools/options to speak of. Do assume that anything I didn't complain about, I really liked. To mention a few - improving range / accuracy of matchlocks and portraying the aiming vs volley method of gunnery, curtailing "all samurai" stacks just because I've got coin, slower refitting of samurai/skilled units etc.

I'm simply lamenting lack of representation of disciples of so many fine archery schools in your mod or the fact that bow was a weapon used on a battlefield. If that is in fact the intent, then I can confirm the success of it.

Samurai are also a bit hardy and do not suffer consequences of poor command - I found that samurai manage to do just fine when outnumbered by rabble 3 or even 4 to 1, putting on a good show for the supporting peasants. This doesn't jive well with my sources nor the fact that I'm setting up situation where historically samurai were at disadvantage. If indeed this is intended portrayal of samurai being infallible, short of meeting other samurai/monks or matchlocks - then I guess it doesn't portray my interpretation of swelling ranks of samurai by frauds in the era, distinguished swordsmen were still mortal men whom also used their heads to serve their lord and strict adherence to the bushido was being tested by more dirty means of fighting.

Laying siege to a well garrisoned fortress should be a fool's errand - feel free to ridicule me for mentioning Sun Tzu many quotes, as this time I'm serious. I thought that tricks of laying ambush at city walls or trampling everything around city walls to force the defender to open field battle worked pretty well in "vanilla".

Weapon design also meets armor in a constant cause and effect loop - Japanese had some interesting designs of weapons that were designed as far as combating plate armor of possible invaders... Evolution of arrowtips designed more for broad wound channels rather than penetrating wound can be attributed to lower prevalence of armor as well as slashing vs cleaving blade designs. Japanese armor (for the most part) offering no protection from the back - clearly this would dictate a tactic in combat and in some instances be rendered completely ineffective. Even though the Japanese islands were largely secluded from outside influence, there is still a high number of examples where varying methods of warfare met and successful exploits were made in proven means of combat by innovation.

Simulation is also an interesting tool, where we map proposed events and see how they play out. "Could have been used" and "known to be used this way" are kind of different - my sources state the first use of cannon in combat no earlier than 1614, but there isn't a real concrete reason that earlier use was not recorded, varying source or some odd reasoning that prevented it from being fielded. Telling me "this is not how it was used so shove it" works both ways.

[surihtanil]

This will work in co-op online campaign? The reason I ask of course is my best friend and myself play shogun online together almost nightly. We're longing to mix up the gameplay a little bit with a good mod.

[DeMolay]

@ Germanicus , thank you mate , thats’ kind of you
@Stuka it is true that Kurosawa's Kagemusha depiction of Ieyasu and Nobunaga is probably the best to date and that compared to Ten to Chi ( the movie Heaven and Earth which was meant as a semi-documentary ) , there is much less criticisms to make , but i think we were just saying that Kurosawa's main focus was art , like in Ran , over historical accuracy . By the way good point that you made , i agree with you on cannons , AFAIK only the Otomo used a Portuguese ship during a siege , and cannon(s) were used in the winter Osaka siege
@Surihtanil , i'm afraid it won't work , as it was meant to be single player only , but i never tried to be honest , i suspect it won't though


It’s really nice to see you participating again in the mod Da Vinci , thank you for posting !

Since you are here and Stuka posted his opinion about the mod (which I think is good because respectful feedback and criticism can only improve the mod in the end ) , I wanted to take the opportunity to say a few things if you are still working on the mod and intending to make updates , that would be really awesome by the way because it ‘s my favourite mod for “roleplaying” , especially small clans

One of the things I like is the way you depict the evolution during Sengoku jidai from peasant levies to semi professional soldiers (Yari inaka to Sakunin) , however I would also like to see other transition that took place , which is the transition between mass use of archers to the mass use of teppos in the last 2 decades of the 16th century under Hideyoshi’s rule . I noticed there are units of samurai teppo of 45 men or 75 men , I’m aware you can stack many nanban units , but I thought that since we get to have large unit of semi pro ashigaru with 250-300 men , it would have been consistent for a late sengoku army to have units of 150-175 arquebusiers (capped of course ) ingame .

This also brings us to archers , whilst your mod is in my opinion an improvement on vanilla , I really feel that ranged units in general aren’t effective enough due to the high armour rating of most elite troops (samurai/monks) . I made some tests and noticed they are quite effective against basic ashigaru units , but in my humble opinion , a lower armour rating for all samurai/monk units in the game would help show more the fact that ranged units often accounted for the majority of the kills during battles in Sengoku Jidai , due to the fact that it was extremely rare that a battle was really decisive ,meaning either side losing more than 50% of their troops . I'd also increase the number of arrows for ashigaru (say 25 arrows ) and samurai (say 10 arrows before entering the fray ) , to show better the fact that a Daymio counting on a large force of ashigaru archer or skilled archers was still quite an advantage on the battlefield and to compensate , i would add more upkeep cost to all archers units ( to reflect the cost of training and the fact that only rich clans had a large force of ashigaru archers ) and lower the samurai archer armour rating in order to not make them overpowered compared to regular melee samurai units

A last thing I would change is about the economy : merchant guild and rice exchange bring the same money as in vanilla , but since in the S2R+ mod , most samurai units have small upkeep , it’s still hard to find money at the beginning , roughly until turn 30-50 depending if you have a port or not , but once you get a rice exchange and especially a merchant guild , the money is too easy to come by for the player , with 1 region , I could get 276000 koku in hard mode and still have nearly two armies/stacks last time , so I think it would be good to half the bonus of such buildings , because in real life , Nobunaga developed trade considerably by a series of measures and incentives which modernized the economy , but almost all other clan’s economy and income were mainly based on agriculture( and mining ) , including the Kyushu clans who indeed prospered with sea trade.

About Stuka ‘s opinion on clans not expanding quick enough , I played in very hard a Hattori campaign last time and the Takeda got the whole eastern Japan in less than 50 turns , which made me restart another campaign . However , it’s true that in many cases , the AI lacks some aggressivity , not the AI that is at war with you , but the clans around the player , for instance in my current Tokugawa campaign at turn 177 , i have 2 regions and gave to my Oda ally more than 30.000 koku , but he doesn't want to expand and stays with only Mino-Owari .

However I want to stress that clans doing Genghis Khan conquest in less than 60 turns like in vanilla , invading huge provinces like villages with just a few poor units (and often without penalties in unrest) was the number 1 reason I immediately started to look at some mods to stop that immersion killer initially , whether it was mod to increase garrison size or nerf the AI aggressivity , in the end I found this S2R+ is the best to have an Sengoku jidai experience where it is possible to have a complex map with many clans even past turn 100 , and have long rivalries with neigbouring clans who also have only 1 province like you and make wars with them for years etc… stuff like real history that you cannot really do in vanilla past turn 30 as it is more like a checker game and a race to steamroll the map , I did once or twice , but it gets boring for me , so if the AI aggressiveness is improved , I hope the changes will be subtle

Anyway , I just want to make clear it’s my humble opinion and I totally respect and agree if you prefer other choices , it’s a great mod IMHO , and I’d be really glad if you are still intending to work on it and make an update , thanks for posting and taking the time to read guys

[DaVinci]

Thanks again for all comments. Yes, i'll try to find time (and fun!) to improve the one or other aspect, incl. the things you guys mentioned.

This will work in co-op online campaign? The reason I ask of course is my best friend and myself play shogun online together almost nightly. We're longing to mix up the gameplay a little bit with a good mod.

I personally do not play online since years (last time might have been 2005 with other games than TW's), maybe a mistake, but i have no time to spend additionally in online-games.

In the Org forum i had S2R+ players who confirmed via PM, S2R+ works online, just make sure all participants have the same build and settings.

[DaVinci]

Okay, S2R+ is updated to version 2.97, download via first post.

Technically save game compatible, but i recommend a new campaign start.

Changelog is included in the download file ( and viewable in the sticky thread on S2R+ forum / Org ) - changes adress some of the last discussed/suggested things (former page).

[GERMANICUS]

Okay, S2R+ is updated to version 2.97, download via first post.

Technically save game compatible, but i recommend a new campaign start.

Changelog is included in the download file ( and viewable in the sticky thread on S2R+ forum / Org ) - changes adress some of the last discussed/suggested things (former page).

Outstanding! Already downloaded and ready for another go!
Much thanks for finding the time to address some of the wishe of this mod's adherents