Camping's Prediction has caused this...

[The Edain]

This isn't a thread regarding the prediction itself, but rather what can happen due to these "Rapture/End of the world" predictions.

Seem's Camping's prediction scared a Teenage girl so bad that she might be one of those left behind she killed her self in order to prevent being left behind.

A 14-year-old girl from Russia was so scared of the May 21 doomsday and rapture prediction made by Harold Camping that she committed suicide the same day, investigators said Wednesday. The teenager wanted to choose death rather than be among the ones suffering on earth after the rapture

Now, I don't know what you all think about this, but accidental or not, in my opinion Camping should be held somewhat responsible. I don't know if he should be accused of Involuntary Manslaughter, but it seems, according to the article, that this girl was not the only one to attempt suicide due to his prediction.

Input? Opinions? What do you think about it?

Full article is HERE.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

He's not criminally responsible in any way.

By that logic I could commit suicide because I'm offended by your post and you'd go to jail.

[The Edain]

He's not criminally responsible in any way.

By that logic I could commit suicide because I'm offended by your post and you'd go to jail.

Criminally? No, hence why I said I wouldn't convict him of a Involuntary manslaughter. Even if he was just to acknowledge the fact that his words were a driving force in this, it'd be enough. I know the case would never stand up in a court of law, but in realms of principle, he should take, in my opinion, some sort of responsibility. Like I said earlier, just an acknowledgement would be fair enough.

[MathiasOfAthens]

Yeah this is the same as that preacher who burned a koran which caused the deaths of UN officials in afghanistan.

Another man tried to commit suicide but was prevented by family members.

[DisgruntledGoat]

This reminds me of a similar story for the day that LHC went live... I believe it was a teenage girl in that one too.

[Copperknickers II]

Teenage girls will use any excuse to commit suicide, they're like that.

[sdjenkyn]

Should merge this thread with the "free will" thread and see if it has legs. Thank God for liberals or we would all have to be responsible for our own actions.

[MathiasOfAthens]

This reminds me of a similar story for the day that LHC went live... I believe it was a teenage girl in that one too.

LHC?

Should merge this thread with the "free will" thread and see if it has legs. Thank God for liberals or we would all have to be responsible for our own actions.

You cant deny that this girl is dead as a direct cause of this guys preaching who pretends to be in some sort of position of authority granted no less by the state that has the power to strip him of his right to operate.

Cause and Effect.

You dont have the free will to cause someone else to suffer or die.

[Taiji]

LHC?

Large Hadron Collider, some thought it would destroy the planet when they switched it on. Quite funny really.

[sdjenkyn]

LHC?


You cant deny that this girl is dead as a direct cause of this guys preaching who pretends to be in some sort of position of authority granted no less by the state that has the power to strip him of his right to operate.

Cause and Effect.

You dont have the free will to cause someone else to suffer or die.

Yes I can deny that. What a pathetic argument. He did not directly cause her to suffer or force her to commit suicide. He is a loon and besides that where is the culpability of her friends and family, those that have a direct connection to her? You cant just string someone up because they say stupid things and that there are stupid people who will believe them. Would be like me posting " No more TW ever" and having a fanboy hang himself cause he believed that was true. Again pure liberal nanny state tripe.

[MathiasOfAthens]

Yes I can deny that. What a pathetic argument. He did not directly cause her to suffer or force her to commit suicide. He is a loon and besides that where is the culpability of her friends and family, those that have a direct connection to her? You cant just string someone up because they say stupid things and that there are stupid people who will believe them. Would be like me posting " No more TW ever" and having a fanboy hang himself cause he believed that was true. Again pure liberal nanny state tripe.

Cause and Effect does not mean he has to directly cause her to die. Cause can also refer to indirect causes as well. So according to Cause and Effect he did Cause her to die through his actions. Is he guilty of breaking some law idk... thats not what Cause and Effect answers... thats up to the courts and he prob wont be found guilty, not in America where its ok to say whatever you want and all if it causes a riot or someone to kill themselves.

Like that radical preacher who brought people to some South American jungle retreat in the 70s and forced the women to him and then in the end gave poison to everyone... of course he wasnt guilty. Everyone did it willingly.

Just like this girl who literally believed the world was going to end. Of course no one should try to stop her because its her choice right? And why hold this guy to blame for her death he was just talking and so what that he was wrong... he be right next time... until hes wrong then too.

[sdjenkyn]

Cause and Effect does not mean he has to directly cause her to die. Cause can also refer to indirect causes as well. So according to Cause and Effect he did Cause her to die through his actions. Is he guilty of breaking some law idk... thats not what Cause and Effect answers... thats up to the courts and he prob wont be found guilty, not in America where its ok to say whatever you want and all if it causes a riot or someone to kill themselves.

Like that radical preacher who brought people to some South American jungle retreat in the 70s and forced the women to him and then in the end gave poison to everyone... of course he wasnt guilty. Everyone did it willingly.

Just like this girl who literally believed the world was going to end. Of course no one should try to stop her because its her choice right? And why hold this guy to blame for her death he was just talking and so what that he was wrong... he be right next time... until hes wrong then too.

You are still mistaken. There is no cause and effect except the connection you are trying to draw. There is absolutely 0 evidence that he had any direct coercive effect on her, 0 personal contact, no one on one brainwashing session, ect, ect unlike the example you submit of Jonestown where the guy had intimate contact with his cult. Certainly those idiots should have exhibited more free will and in essence I guess they did by following him but here he is culpable because he either directly or indirectly poisoned them. She had issues and she could have laid the blame anywhere for the choice she committed herself to make. You still havent explained how he is culpable and trashing free speech isnt going to help your position here.

[Taiji]

He blamed the bible for his prediction. What a fool, but obviously not as foolish as the girl.

To me this highlights the issue of fatal deceptions perpetuated by certain religious people.

But also the poor education some people receive that makes them susceptible.

[(s)AINT]

Not legally, but he ought to have that girls death on his conscious everyday.

Any morally and ethically normal person would feel like and ask forgiveness.

[Incesticide]

I don't know if he should be accused of Involuntary Manslaughter, but it seems, according to the article, that this girl was not the only one to attempt suicide due to his prediction.

Were Camping to be accused of involuntary manslaughter then an entire swath of lawsuits could be brought up against all manner of people - starting with religious figure-heads.

The man made a public prediction, which is hardly an action which directly caused the girls death. I'm unaware as to Russian law, but my (albeit limited) knowledge of UK law states that for manslaughter the following points must hold:

• The defendant must do an unlawful act, and this must be a criminal offence involving intention or recklessness.
• The act must be dangerous.
• The act must directly cause the death of the victim.

A public prediction of the rapture is neither of the above. A court would throw such a case out on the basis that the girl caused her own death through sheer gullibility. The only thing we can expect is for Camping to have a guilty conscience, as Faaip de Oiad said.

[The Edain]

Were Camping to be accused of involuntary manslaughter then an entire swath of lawsuits could be brought up against all manner of people - starting with religious figure-heads.

The man made a public prediction, which is hardly an action which directly caused the girls death. I'm unaware as to Russian law, but my (albeit limited) knowledge of UK law states that for manslaughter the following points must hold:

• The defendant must do an unlawful act, and this must be a criminal offence involving intention or recklessness.
• The act must be dangerous.
• The act must directly cause the death of the victim.

A public prediction of the rapture is neither of the above. A court would throw such a case out on the basis that the girl caused her own death through sheer gullibility. The only thing we can expect is for Camping to have a guilty conscience, as Faaip de Oiad said.

Which is why I said, I wouldn't got as far as accusing him of Involuntary Manslaughter. Though, if you were to compare the this against a hypothetical case where a man in a theatre shouted fire falsely, therefore causing panic and the accidental death of a person due to this panic. The man who instigated the panic due to false allegations would be held accountable criminally as far as I understand; Obviously,there is a big difference between Camping's prediction and the situation I have just given, But the principal is the same. But obviously, as the situation is different, as is the aspects of this particular situation, it wouldn't stand up in a court of law as I have already stated in a previous post, a post, from what I can see, you have not read.

My opinion is he should be held accountable morally - criminally its impossible to convict, therefore impossible for his arrest and imprisonment.

[sdjenkyn]

Which is why I said, I wouldn't got as far as accusing him of Involuntary Manslaughter. Though, if you were to compare the this against a hypothetical case where a man in a theatre shouted fire falsely, therefore causing panic and the accidental death of a person due to this panic. The man who instigated the panic due to false allegations would be held accountable criminally as far as I understand; Obviously,there is a big difference between Camping's prediction and the situation I have just given, But the principal is the same. But obviously, as the situation is different, as is the aspects of this particular situation, it wouldn't stand up in a court of law as I have already stated in a previous post, a post, from what I can see, you have not read.

My opinion is he should be held accountable morally - criminally its impossible to convict, therefore impossible for his arrest and imprisonment.

The principle isnt the same if you add historical evidence to that argument. Fire has a history of killing people and people are conscientious of that little detail. So to yell fire and cause unnecessary panic is endangerment. Pretending or believing the world will end just doesnt have the same effect or history as a danger to society. Another point thats been missing is she committed suicide...which is a sin and delivers you straight to hell.....seems stupid to concern yourself with being left behind by guaranteeing yourself everlasting damnation.

[The Edain]

Actually, dis-regard this post.

[cottontail]

Well, I'm sorry the girl committed suicide, but Camping did not cause it in anyway. This girl obviously had some other issues than just the preaching. As I said in the earlier thread about the UN workers who were killed, people have responsibility for their own actions. People are discerning. People can reason. That this girl chose not too (although I highly doubt she committed suicide because of the rapture announcment) is not the fault of Camping. People should use their analytical minds, realize that Camping is a nut, and just ignore him. That's what the other seven billion people did.


In the case of yelling fire in a theater, that is a reasonable and believable threat. A reasonable person would run in such a situation, as that situation is believable. That is why yelling fire in a crowded theater when there isn't one is a crime. Yelling Rapture? Not so believable. Any reasoning human knows that it was ridiculous. That's why Camping has not responsibility for the suicide.

[Incesticide]

Which is why I said, I wouldn't got as far as accusing him of Involuntary Manslaughter. Though, if you were to compare the this against a hypothetical case where a man in a theatre shouted fire falsely, therefore causing panic and the accidental death of a person due to this panic. The man who instigated the panic due to false allegations would be held accountable criminally as far as I understand; Obviously,there is a big difference between Camping's prediction and the situation I have just given, But the principal is the same. But obviously, as the situation is different, as is the aspects of this particular situation, it wouldn't stand up in a court of law as I have already stated in a previous post, a post, from what I can see, you have not read.

My opinion is he should be held accountable morally - criminally its impossible to convict, therefore impossible for his arrest and imprisonment.

I'm well aware of what you stated in a previous post, that in this situation Camping would not be legally liable. I believe you probably confused my intent for posting - which wasn't to debate your point but merely to inform with regards to legal details. In other words, I simply wanted to explain exactly why such a case wouldn't hold up in a court of law.

You're quite right, it would be impossible to convict the man criminally, but in this case, an apology might be due on his part.

With regards to the "fire in the theatre" scenario, I believe you're quite right. The man shouting "fire" would be criminally liable, seeing as he was the direct cause of the death of a person and being well-aware of the consequences of what he was doing. The only way he could get out of it would be via diminished responsibility.