The (possible) morality of tipping/not tipping in countries that have this.

[Thanatos]

I really don't understand why some people think that others are somehow doing something morally bad if they don't tip a waiter/waitress.

I don't get this. Why can't they just do their damn job right even if they don't get tipped? Why do they feel the need to spit in food / serve food in revenge? Why do they feel so entitled to extra money?

How come every other worker in every other profession in the world can just do their job without begging for money, but they think that if a customer doesn't personally hand them an extra 15+% of their food cost to them, that it's okay to force crap service on them on purpose? It's literally culinary blackmail.

The people who do this are some of the lowest of the low. Do your damn job and stop this .

[/endrant]

And it isn't like I have no idea what it's like in the food service industry. I do. I worked in the food industry during my early university years. I know how hard work can get and how stressful the industry is.

I just don't get this weird self-entitlement feeling engendered by waiters/waitresses, let alone this being further propagated by people who defend this. If it's because the owner isn't paying them enough, then tipping only helps this kind of activity.

[ZarBoneD]

You can't afford 15% on your bill, maybe you should have eaten somewhere they don't hire people to service to your dining needs. I never feel entitled to someone else's money, that is just asinine.

Most other professions, pay at least minimum wage or more, your usually not dealing with cranky hippos who think your entitled to the money they tip you. Most of the people I know, and myself only really harbor resentment towards people who are dicks, and then refuse to tip you. I could've been surly and foul mouthed back at my customers, but I would have been fired. So in all honesty, if you can't pay the tip because you are financially incapable of doing so that is fine; but then again you probably shouldn't have gone to place where they hire people to service your dining needs.

If you don't want to pay a tip becasue you think it an outdated practice going to when servant worked for room and board, and that was their pay. Just eat at McDonald's. No one is forcing you to go eat an actual restaurant, where their hosts actually bring food to your table instead of just ringing up your burger and fries.

If you work in a Restaurant like Flemming's, or Daniel's your base pay will be higher than if you worked at Claim Jumper or Red Robin; Becasue you provide excellent customer service, and people WILL tip you a gracious amount if you provide premium service. These places wont hire people who don't have serving experience becasue they don't their staff full of snot-nosed college students want to scrape a few buck together to buy weed for the weekend party. I can't say we didn't do that while working there but we provided excellent customer service and were rewarded for it.
If you don't want to be rewarded for your time, effort, and hard work; I will gladly take your tips.

So there is a very simple solution to your problem: Eat fast food.

[Thanatos]

You can't afford 15% on your bill, maybe you should have eaten somewhere they don't hire people to service to your dining needs. I never feel entitled to someone else's money, that is just asinine.

Most other professions, pay at least minimum wage or more, your usually not dealing with cranky hippos who think your entitled to the money they tip you. Most of the people I know, and myself only really harbor resentment towards people who are dicks, and then refuse to tip you. I could've been surly and foul mouthed back at my customers, but I would have been fired. So in all honesty, if you can't pay the tip because you are financially incapable of doing so that is fine; but then again you probably shouldn't have gone to place where they hire people to service your dining needs.

If you don't want to pay a tip becasue you think it an outdated practice going to when servant worked for room and board, and that was their pay. Just eat at McDonald's. No one is forcing you to go eat an actual restaurant, where their hosts actually bring food to your table instead of just ringing up your burger and fries.

If you work in a Restaurant like Flemming's, or Daniel's your base pay will be higher than if you worked at Claim Jumper or Red Robin; Becasue you provide excellent customer service, and people WILL tip you a gracious amount if you provide premium service. These places wont hire people who don't have serving experience becasue they don't their staff full of snot-nosed college students want to scrape a few buck together to buy weed for the weekend party. I can't say we didn't do that while working there but we provided excellent customer service and were rewarded for it.
If you don't want to be rewarded for your time, effort, and hard work; I will gladly take your tips.

So there is a very simple solution to your problem: Eat fast food.

I can easily tip, and I do tip, but that's not the issue. The thing is that it doesn't have to be this way, though. There are other nations that are developed and don't utilize tipping, so it's not like this is some sort of norm for going to a restaurant. Denmark, New Zealand, and Japan are just some of those that don't utilize tipping. Yet in countries that do, not tipping is seen as something horribly vile, which is what I'm confused about.

You worked in the "food industry"? Really? The "food industry"?

What do you want me to say? I brought people their food, and I also did food preparation. Food industry works pretty well as a catch-all phrase for me.

Anyhow... what you say is very risky. Those service professionals serve our food (= the stuff that you/we put inside our bodies).

So... again, there's the whole culinary blackmail thing going on in countries where tipping is the norm. Tip, or else you get bad service and sabotaged food. That's just lovely.

[hellheaven1987]

I can easily tip, that's not the issue. The thing is that it doesn't have to be this way, though. There are other nations that are developed and don't utilize tipping, so it's not like this is some sort of norm for going to a restaurant. Denmark, New Zealand, and Japan are just some of those that don't utilize tipping. Yet in countries that do, not tipping is seen as something horribly vile, which is what I'm confused about.

Well, that is because they forcefully put 15% service fee in your bill...

[Thanatos]

Well, that is because they forcefully put 15% service fee in your bill...

Do you have proof of this? I am especially doubtful of this in places in East Asia such as Japan, where tipping or things like it are seen as incredibly insulting/losing face, since it smacks of being so poor you have to beg for food. I still remember my time in Beijing well enough too.

[hellheaven1987]

Do you have proof of this? I am especially doubtful of this in places in East Asia such as Japan, where tipping or things like it are seen as incredibly insulting, since it smacks of being so poor you have to beg for food. I still remember my time in Beijing well enough too.

Yes, it is always listed on your bill if service fee is included (restaurants, however, would not inform you directly). However, not all restaurants do this (and forcefully service fee is also getting common in US).

Service fee of food industry is not uncommon in Asia, but I do quite surprised how other industries want tip too.

[Visna]

I can easily tip, and I do tip, but that's not the issue. The thing is that it doesn't have to be this way, though. There are other nations that are developed and don't utilize tipping, so it's not like this is some sort of norm for going to a restaurant. Denmark, New Zealand, and Japan are just some of those that don't utilize tipping. Yet in countries that do, not tipping is seen as something horribly vile, which is what I'm confused about.

I can only speak for Denmark, but here the minimum wage is so high, that a tip is not considered "necessary".

I've certainly never felt it was disrepectful to get a tip, but I haven't expected it either.

[Gaidin]

You can't afford 15% on your bill, maybe you should have eaten somewhere they don't hire people to service to your dining needs. I never feel entitled to someone else's money, that is just asinine.

As a person that tips, all I have to say is that if they want to be guaranteed this money they should raise their prices by 15% and get over expecting tips.

[hardrive]

You worked in the "food industry"? Really? The "food industry"?

Anyhow... what you say is very risky. Those service professionals serve our food (= the stuff that you/we put inside our bodies). And they do it face-on unlike many other service profession

[Veliky Kaiser Theos]

If you're in a position where you are dependent on tips, then you should have done better in school. Unless you are studying.

[Morkonan]

...I just don't get this weird self-entitlement feeling engendered by waiters/waitresses, let alone this being further propagated by people who defend this. If it's because the owner isn't paying them enough, then tipping only helps this kind of activity.

Hello, oh Patron.

Well, in the US, it's like this - Anyone who makes a certain portion of their wages due to tips is not entitled to minimum wage... What that means is that if the minimum wage is $7.35 and they make an appreciable amount of their income from tips, then they do not have to be paid the minimum wage by their employer...

Yes, it's stupid. However, there are reasons for it -

One reason is that the waiter or waitress is providing a service as a liaison between the customer and the kitchen staff and management. Their job is customer satisfaction. So, they're like a concierge in some respects, fulfilling customer's wishes to the best of their capabilities, given the resources of the establishment. For such customized services, it's generally acknowledged that one would pay them almost like contracted services.

Another is cost offset for the establishment. That depends on the average cost per plate, number of employees, business hours, number of tables, table overturns per night, customer traffic, etc.. Restaurants do not do the same amount of business during their open hours. Some only open for dinner, some only breakfast and lunch. So, there are a limited amount of hours available for people to work and a limited amount of hours the establishment can reasonably expect guests.

So, costs must be recouped during business hours, yet manpower must remain constant even though revenue is not. Basing a portion of wages on the actual revenue helps offset what would otherwise be static costs that revenue could not support.


Generally, waitstaff prefers the Tip mechanism, depending on the establishment and their average per plate revenue. It is not uncommon for waitstaff to make a fairly good amount of money per night. The downside is that income is sporadic and hourly labor has no consistent return. But, still, many seem to prefer it as it gives them income opportunities that the job would not be able to afford if the costs were static, per hour, for waitstaff labor. If a good waitress can earn several hundred dollars a night (which is not unreasonable in some places) how could a restaurant afford to pay her a commensurate hourly wage if they aren't doing the volume of business necessary each hour to pay her that sort of wage? In short, they could not.

IIRC, cost per plate is somewhere around 30%, give or take, and depending upon the restaurant. That's 30% for the labor and materials that go into presenting the food to the customer. Restaurants can be profitable. But, imagine a restaurant that had to stay open 14 hours a day, just from 10 am to 10pm, in order to serve lunch and dinner, not counting clean up and preparation. They would need at least two shifts, if not three with overlap during heavy periods, of waitstaff in order to handle that. Without the tip mechanic and paying $9 an hour per staffer, instead of $4 plus tips, they would have many hours where costs were not recouped for the waitstaff because, quite frankly, lunch and dinner are appointed times to eat, even if we don't always eat at exactly the same time.

I'm in agreement that tips should be commensurate with service performed. However, my general rule is that I never tip less than $3 for any meal, regardless of the cost, and always tip 12%-15% or better for service rendered during any white tablecloth dining experience, IF the service was up to agreeable standards. If not, they get $3..

But, for your average waitress working hard hours in a mid-range diner, think about it from her perspective. She's likely getting $4 or less an hour for her labor (in the US) as a guaranteed wage. If she provides agreeable service as a semi-contracted liaison between you and the kitchen staff, consider rewarding her... it's not an easy job.

(I have no experience as a waiter or in management within restaurants. But, I have consulted with them, on occasion, and am aware of some of their hidden costs and revenue problems.)

[Exarch]

this is an aspect of american culture which i find a tad bit annoying; a tip is, by definition a gratuity, meaning it's up to you, the customer to determine whether or not to tip. it's not a right as so many service staff have come to expect.

back in oz, we never tip, unless it's for exceptional service and i usually do tip for exceptional service. i'm not going to tip someone for doing their goddam job.

having said that, though, i'll still tip waiters here in the States; i figure when it Rome, after all. American customs should be respected after all, as idiotic as they may seem

[hellheaven1987]

By the way how do waiters/waitresses spite the food for revenge? Customers only pay the tips after meal is done so how do waiters/waitresses know there is tip or not before very end of service?

[Gaidin]

By the way how do waiters/waitresses spite the food for revenge? Customers only pay the tips after meal is done so how do waiters/waitresses know there is tip or not before very end of service?

Frivolous complaints about the food.

[Taiji]

The problem appears to be caused by perhaps restaurants undercharging customers in the first place, and for certain they then underpay staff. So better legislation regarding regulation of restaurants could help.

[Gaidin]

The problem appears to be caused by perhaps restaurants undercharging customers in the first place, and for certain they then underpay staff. So better legislation regarding regulation of restaurants could help.

Undercharging? That's a new one...

[Taiji]

Undercharging? That's a new one...

It's not exactly a stab in the dark. Pay is related to profit.

Waiters don't earn minimum wage so thats why they get tips and why it is a norm.

You don't have a 'minimum wage' if it's legal to pay under it.

[Gaidin]

You don't have a 'minimum wage' if it's legal to pay under it.

They have minimum wage. It's just lower than standard minimum wage.

[Vanoi]

They have minimum wage. It's just lower than standard minimum wage.

Exactly, and the reason why is tips make up for not reciveing the normal pay.

[Taiji]

They have minimum wage. It's just lower than standard minimum wage.

Then the standard is clearly not the minimum wage.

I guess my thrust would be aimed at the theory that it encourages better service, and I'd look at the medical profession.

If it is effective in ensuring good service then why is it not applied to areas where good service means life or death?