Your reason for being skeptical of Christianity (Islam/Judaism)

[hardrive]

I'll start it simple and basic...

- If an omnipotent Aseity* had created the universe, then also the Evil and the Devil must have originated from God. So God would have to be the origin of all evil and Satan would be God's offspring.


*commonly and subsequently referred to as God

[Sphere]

Sam Harris more or less captures my skepticism on this particular topic.

[sdjenkyn]

I'll start it simple and basic...

- If an omnipotent Aseity* had created the universe, then also the Evil and the Devil must have originated from God. So God would have to be the origin of all evil and Satan would be God's offspring.


*commonly and subsequently referred to as God

Why should I be skeptical of Christians, Islamist or Jews? I know they are real.....Ive met some

[Rex Germanius]

There is a loophole: God granted free will. As a result, perfidious Satan turned against God and was cast out of Heaven. Following which, Satan introduced Evil to the Earth.

[hardrive]

There is a loophole: God granted free will. As a result, perfidious Satan turned against God and was cast out of Heaven. Following which, Satan introduced Evil to the Earth.

Your reasonig has one critical flaw...

1.) God made all his creatures (Angels, Humans, Animals, etc.) out of himself and gave them a will that was also from out of himself => all creatures (and "free wills") are essentially God - literally!

=> "perfidious Satan" is literally in his essence God (as what he is made of, can only be God, as everything comes out of God)
=> the free will that wishes and pursues evil is God's will, as it was created by God and out of himself

[Gaidin]

Your reasonig has one critical flaw...

1.) God made all his creatures (Angels, Humans, Animals, etc.) out of himself and gave them a will that was also from out of himself => all creatures (and "free wills") are essentially God - literally!

=> "perfidious Satan" is literally in his essence God (as what he is made of, can only be God, as everything comes out of God)
=> the free will that wishes and pursues evil is God's will, as it was created by God and out of himself

He must have done a piss poor job designing the angels if they turned against him like that then.

[Rex Germanius]

Your reasonig has one critical flaw...

1.) God made all his creatures (Angels, Humans, Animals, etc.) out of himself and gave them a will that was also from out of himself => all creatures (and "free wills") are essentially God - literally!

=> "perfidious Satan" is literally in his essence God (as what he is made of, can only be God, as everything comes out of God)
=> the free will that wishes and pursues evil is God's will, as it was created by God and out of himself

One cannot control free will. That is the point of it. Even if every "creature" is made of him, their will is not necessarily God's. This retort sounds like it claims free will is deterministic in that since God created the devil in his own image, then Satan is destined to act as God would.

[hardrive]

One cannot control free will. That is the point of it. Even if every "creature" is made of him, their will is not necessarily God's. This retort sounds like it claims free will is deterministic in that since God created the devil in his own image, then Satan is destined to act as God would.

My "retort" was merley a reply.

This thread is about "reasons from being sceptical of Christianity (Islam/Judaism)". So if God is an Aseity from which all has come (as God is the creator of ALL), then also the essence of free will is God, as free will and/or it's essence can only have come from out of God.

And that Satan has to be an offspring of God is absolutly obvious or not!... as God is the base and the 0 of all that is, as he did the creation and created everything from out of himself.

Btw... What's your point?

[Keyser]

God is almighty and omniscient.

He granted us freewill... But he is still ALLMIGHTY and OMNISCIENT.

He know everything, otherwise he wouldn't be allmighty etc.
So he already know who will sin and who will not, our existence on earth has no true purpose.
Or god doesn't know before hand, because of the freewill trick. But then he isn't really allmighty and omniscient, so if that is wrong, what else is about him ?
(Accordingly, why the genesis ? No point for an almighty being such as presented. Now, i know, God's way can't be understood by mere mortals... Come on, aren't we supposed to have a bit of divine in us ?)

Anyway, i know there are theological explanations about this but frankly it looks like intellectual :wub: to explain obvious contradictions. Most problem i have with the religious dogmas come from conflicts between freewill, destiny, god being allmighty etc.

I have many other reasons to be sceptical about the existence of God, but regarding the way religion explain things, this is my main problem with it.

And miracles of a kind that will never be reproduced in modern times, so convenient...

[boofhead]

There is a loophole: God granted free will. As a result, perfidious Satan turned against God and was cast out of Heaven. Following which, Satan introduced Evil to the Earth.

This is the answer. The free-will granted was not limited, but complete.

So if God is an Aseity from which all has come (as God is the creator of ALL), then also the essence of free will is God, as free will and/or it's essence can only have come from out of God.

As God is omnipotent, he can do whatever he wants. You are implying that he is not, or that he is bound by the constraints of the wisdom of men, which he is not. You cannot box God.

In this case, all God has to do is will that created beings are given the choice to act independently.

And it's an important component of Christianity, because without free-will any love for God or other people for that matter becomes utterly meaningless because there is a lack of choice. We become Borg. So I guess in a way negative things are a part of God's plan, however he isn't the one to have directly created them, he just allowed the wheels to turn.

[hardrive]

As God is omnipotent, he can do whatever he wants. You are implying that he is not, or that he is bound by the constraints of the wisdom of men, which he is not. You cannot box God.

In this case, all God has to do is will that created beings are given the choice to act independently.

And it's an important component of Christianity, because without free-will any love for God or other people for that matter becomes utterly meaningless because there is a lack of choice. We become Borg. So I guess in a way negative things are a part of God's plan, however he isn't the one to have directly created them, he just allowed the wheels to turn.

Why not try to think outside the box!? You must acknowledge that people do murder, rape, lie and succumb to all of the pleasures.

But our view of the world says that "god" is the beginning and the "god" created everything. And "god" created everything from out of himself as he is the beginning.

So "god" is everything! Nothing can be apart or not from out of "god". So anything you experience - be it good, bad or evil - can't be without "god"-ness. Free will, you, I , he, she, it, that, this, there ... everything has to be "god" - what other source is there? Can anything then be not "God"?

[boofhead]

Can anything then be not "God"?

Yes. If I create a machine I am not that machine. As God is omnipotent he can create something independent of himself.

I think you need to really think about the concept of omnipotency. Your posts imply that God is not omnipotent, and can only create something out of the stuff of himself.

[hardrive]

my post:

Why not try to think outside the box!? You must acknowledge that people do murder, rape, lie and succumb to all of the pleasures.

But our view of the world says that "god" is the beginning and the "god" created everything. And "god" created everything from out of himself as he is the beginning.

So "god" is everything! Nothing can be apart or not from out of "god". So anything you experience - be it good, bad or evil - can't be without "god"-ness. Free will, you, I , he, she, it, that, this, there ... everything has to be "god" - what other source is there? Can anything then be not "God"?

your response:

Yes. If I create a machine I am not that machine. As God is omnipotent he can create something independent of himself.

I think you need to really think about the concept of omnipotency. Your posts imply that God is not omnipotent, and can only create something out of the stuff of himself.

If you look at your response closely then you will find one or two flaws and one big misjudgement conerning what I implyed:

"If I create a machine I am not that machine." > If you create a machine, it is made of something else than yourself. But that wouldn't be possible for the Christian god, unless you are saying that when "god" created the world there already was some other material there. That then would self-evidently not have been created by "god", but would have to be from a source other than "god". Which would imply that something (the other material) would have been created from a source other and maybe even more fundamental than "god"; or may have emerged out of itself without "god" having had anything to do with that god-less self-emersion.

"As God is omnipotent he can create something independent of himself. I think you need to really think about the concept of omnipotency." > Despite whatever definition of omnipotence your are thinking of... (in theory) the Christian god could maybe create something independent of himself, but not something that is from a source other than himself. At least that's how most Christian scholars read the bible - even if that get's them into even deeper trouble trying to explain evil and the devil... or in a more modern term: badness [also see above argument]

"Your posts imply that God is not omnipotent, and can only create something out of the stuff of himself." > You really got me wrong here. My post doesn't even imply that there actually is a "god".

[hardrive]

Given!

[(s)AINT]

I side with Hitchens. After watching him talk and analyzing his logic - I have became very skeptical of Christianity (and monotheism)

God is almighty and omniscient.

He granted us freewill... But he is still ALLMIGHTY and OMNISCIENT.

Granted us freewill? That perverts the very definition of "free will". It's like saying "Of course we have free will - the big guy says so" or. "the dear leader says we've got it".

[Vanoi]

I don't get why Satan exists. If God is truly omnipotent and all-knowing then why didn't he see Lucifer rebelling against him? Why does he continue to let Satan rule hell instead of destroying him and stopping all evil on Earth? Why?

Also, this is specfically for boofhead, Can God create a rock he cannot lift?

[boofhead]

I don't get why Satan exists. If God is truly omnipotent and all-knowing then why didn't he see Lucifer rebelling against him? Why does he continue to let Satan rule hell instead of destroying him and stopping all evil on Earth? Why?

God is the Alpha and he Omega. He knows the End simultaneously as he knows the Beginning and everything in between. How free-will works exactly is a difficult thing, I think it's simpler to say that from a human perspective, locked in one-directional time as we are, we have free-will; but from a divine perspective, all has been foreseen.

As far as Satan. There must be bad to know what good is, no? To appreciate a drink you need to know thirst. To seek cool you need scorching heat. To seek light you need to know darkness. If all bad was taken away then there would be no value in knowing God, because everyone would know him and there would be no choice to make, and life would be incredibly boring. We would be pets, not people.

Also, this is specfically for boofhead, Can God create a rock he cannot lift?

I don't know. He could create a rock, then give it properties of being unmovable. But by the same token he could just move it, i.e. remove its unmovable properties. It would depend upon whether he wanted to or not.

[Vanoi]

God is the Alpha and he Omega. He knows the End simultaneously as he knows the Beginning and everything in between. How free-will works exactly is a difficult thing, I think it's simpler to say that from a human perspective, locked in one-directional time as we are, we have free-will; but from a divine perspective, all has been foreseen.

As far as Satan. There must be bad to know what good is, no? To appreciate a drink you need to know thirst. To seek cool you need scorching heat. To seek light you need to know darkness. If all bad was taken away then there would be no value in knowing God, because everyone would know him and there would be no choice to make, and life would be incredibly boring. We would be pets, not people.

If all is forseen why couldn't God have prvented Lucifer from rebelling in the first place? Why does he not do it now? Why do i have to wait for him to just decide one day "I think i am going to destroy Satan and end all evil today."

If he is able and but not willing that just shows him to be malovolent. Life would be great without "evil." You say there would be no vaule in knowing God if there was no evil, i seriously doubt that. If there was no evil we would only look up to God even more for vanquishing such evil.

If life would be boring without evil, than i am assuming Heaven would be very boring considering that there would be no evil in it.

I don't know. He could create a rock, then give it properties of being unmovable. But by the same token he could just move it, i.e. remove its unmovable properties. It would depend upon whether he wanted to or not.

If he had to create a rock first, then give it properties of being un-moveable, then he is not omnipotent. If he is able to create a rock that he cannot lift, than he is not omnipotent. If he is not able to create a rock taht he cannot lift than he is still not omnipotent.

Now the two conclusions i can draw from both those answers is either:

God does not exist

or

God is not omnipotent.

[Squiggle]

If all is forseen why couldn't God have prvented Lucifer from rebelling in the first place? Why does he not do it now? Why do i have to wait for him to just decide one day "I think i am going to destroy Satan and end all evil today."

Middle knowledge; God foresees all contingent future events and so pre-ordains certain aspects of reality to ensure the end outcome he desires.

If he is able and but not willing that just shows him to be malovolent.

That argument falls on its face if its even logically possible that God has morally sufficient reasons to allow suffering, evil, etc.

Life would be great without "evil."

Without evil there would also be no free will, all emotions and actions would merely be the jerks of a puppet. It wouldnt be great, or terrible, it would be utterly nothing at all.

If he had to create a rock first, then give it properties of being un-moveable, then he is not omnipotent. If he is able to create a rock that he cannot lift, than he is not omnipotent. If he is not able to create a rock taht he cannot lift than he is still not omnipotent.

Omnipotence doesnt mean never ending power, it means logically never ending power. Thats all it has ever meant, its merely ignorant atheists who ponder "deep" questions such as that. God can not create a rock too heavy for him to lift because its logically impossible.

[Vanoi]

Middle knowledge; God foresees all contingent future events and so pre-ordains certain aspects of reality to ensure the end outcome he desires.

Why? Does he do this for fun? Why would he allow Lucifer to rebel? Assuming God created Lucifer, didn't God know this form the beginning? Wouldn't that mean God basically wanted this to happen?

That argument falls on its face if its even logically possible that God has morally sufficient reasons to allow suffering, evil, etc.

Nothing God does is "logcial" so lets leave logic out fo this. Still doesn't answer the question, If God is able but not willing does that not show him to be malevolent?

Without evil there would also be no free will, all emotions and actions would merely be the jerks of a puppet. It wouldnt be great, or terrible, it would be utterly nothing at all.

I guess Heaven is going to suck for Christians then, because i doubt you will find evil in Heaven.

Omnipotence doesnt mean never ending power, it means logically never ending power. Thats all it has ever meant, its merely ignorant atheists who ponder "deep" questions such as that. God can not create a rock too heavy for him to lift because its logically impossible.

Never ending power, so he is basically able to do what he wants correct? again, do not bring logic into this discussion, God and logic don't really mix.

You are ignoring the question. God is supposed to be omnipotent. So he is able to do or create anything he wants, so why can't he create a rock he cnanot lift? If he can't he is nnot omnipotent.

Now analyze what i just said and please don't go off with "logic" again please.