Scary Stuff south of the border

[Farnan]

http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/jou...ersullivan.pdf


Yea, didn't know it was getting that bad down there. Wow...

The death cult thing suprises me the most though.

Edit: I know it says "blog" but Small Wars Journal is led by the people who invented modern counterinsurgency including the guy who literally wrote the book on it. They don't just publish random .

[The Dude]

Man, that's some horrendous stuff. Reading some of that made my skin crawl. Imagine coming to your end like that?

I wonder what can be done about this at all. I mean, it just seems so outlandish that it almost escapes being fought with solutions available to human reason.

[athanaric]

The death cult thing suprises me the most though.

Reminds one of more ancient cults in that country...

[The Dude]

Reminds one of more ancient cults in that country...

I was thinking the same thing. Could the disposition to behave that way be genetically determined?

[athanaric]

I was thinking the same thing. Could the disposition to behave that way be genetically determined?

I think it's more of a cultural memory thing combined with exterior influences such as the natural and the social environment. I'm against the idea of "genetic dispisition for homicide and brutality", for obvious reasons.

[The Dude]

I think it's more of a cultural memory thing combined with exterior influences such as the natural and the social environment. I'm against the idea of "genetic dispisition for homicide and brutality", for obvious reasons.

Well as long as we try and understand it in terms of homicide and brutality, then it is undesirable to accept the genetic disposition argument, obviously. But Boof said the right thing: they do it as easily as they would prepare a meal. My point being that we call something homocide and brutality because they are outside the scope of what we could see ourselves reasonably doing (even unreasonably I wouldn't do any of this). But to them it is clearly no big deal.

No amount of exterior influence, no amount of socio-cultural conditions, could make me think that skinning a person alive after having castrated him only to poke his eyes out with knives is any form of entertainment or even justful retribution. There has to be something about these people that just makes them look at these acts in an entirely different light. That's the only way I could justify the existence of these people.

The idea of this behaviour being a choice on their part would actually be the worse alternative.

[Dr. Croccer]

Well as long as we try and understand it in terms of homicide and brutality, then it is undesirable to accept the genetic disposition argument, obviously. But Boof said the right thing: they do it as easily as they would prepare a meal. My point being that we call something homocide and brutality because they are outside the scope of what we could see ourselves reasonably doing (even unreasonably I wouldn't do any of this). But to them it is clearly no big deal.

No amount of exterior influence, no amount of socio-cultural conditions, could make me think that skinning a person alive after having castrated him only to poke his eyes out with knives is any form of entertainment or even justful retribution. There has to be something about these people that just makes them look at these acts in an entirely different light. That's the only way I could justify the existence of these people.

I don't think it's that. It's easy to look at horrific things committed in a far country and try to reassure yourself by saying that it was something inherently wrong with these people, that no ''true'' humans can do. The fact is, violence breeds savagery. Allied soldiers collecting the heads of Japanese dead as trophies like tribal savages is still within living memory. The irony is that the Japanese reaction to this was much like yours. The truth is that those people weren't inherently savages, they weren't born psychopaths. The reality of war caused them to view their enemy in a dehumanizing light. I think that's what has happened to Latin America as well, but differently obviously. Much of it has been in chaos for centuries. It's degenerating further and further. The gangs become increasingly violent and brutal. If you've been brought up in a place where brutal murder is a daily occurance, these kind of brutal acts are easier to do and accept. It's the same reason why tribal cultures have often been so incredibly brutal: constant ritual warfare. I doubt these acts could happen in Argentina or Paraguay, for example, because those countries don't have this vice-hold of crime and violence on them (anymore).

From what I can tell, they are trying to outdo each other with doing disgusting things.

Their videos are getting more and more brutal and horrific.

It's like a competition.

Isn't that the whole point? We're still talking about gangs here. Brutal acts like these are to intimidate their rivals. The most brutal and violent gang is more than often the most powerful. A few decades ago Mexican gangs weren't that brutal, but now they've become increasingly so to the point where a normal person couldn't even comprehend such barbarity. I think it's also becoming less and less about money and more about an almost tribal conflict. Brutal ritual warfare between group A and B because that's what they do. Los Zetas shoot a Barrio Azteca guy, Barrio Azteca kidnap and decapitate a Zeta and put the video on internet. It's more like a clan feud than organised crime, and that's what many countries in the region have come to, with gangs becoming societies in their own right.

Not to sound cheesy, but I'm reminded of something that's said in the game Far Cry 2. ''Men have this idea that we can fight with honour. It's absurd, it's an anesthetic. We need to endure the bloody horror of murder. Show them what a terrible, messy thing it is to kill a man and then show them that you relish in it. Shoot the wound, then execute the wounded. Burn them. Take them in close combat. Destroy their preconceptions of what a man is and you become their personal monster. When they fear you, you become stronger, better. But don't forget, it's a display. Like a gorilla thumping his chest or a lion's roar. If you lose yourself with the display, if you succumb to the horror, then you become the monster. You become reduced. Not more than a man, but less.''

I think that that's what is happening in Mexico. Gangs which originally used brutal but logical methods are becoming increasingly irrational and violent. Completely unnecessary torture of rank and file rival gang members, for a near-tribal ritual. The gangs are turning into animals. The rank-and-file armed wings which originally did all the brutal killing for the profit-driven cartels are now becoming ultraviolent gangs of themselves, like Barrio Azteca.

[Dr. Croccer]

I was thinking the same thing. Could the disposition to behave that way be genetically determined?

Well, it's a recent thing so that's dubious. Even the regular narco gangs aren't that sadistic.

[justicar5]

I was thinking the same thing. Could the disposition to behave that way be genetically determined?

highly unlikely, simply because of the demographics of conquistador type conquest, which mexico was on the recieving end of, 'pure' natives are a very small minority, the majority are mixed or 'pure' european.

[Claudius Gothicus]

I was thinking the same thing. Could the disposition to behave that way be genetically determined?

Nope... it's a cultural revival not a genetic predisposition. Using ''historical beliefs'' as forms or torture and death seems like the right answer to a problem that's only fairly recent.

What's basically happening right now is that the gangs are in the middle of a war where fear plays a big part, there's the an escalation in the forms of ''instilling fear'' so the larger the war gets and the more social bonds that break the more rational it will seem to instill fear in the narco's enemies, so they are more or less experimenting with new/classic forms of fear.

What better form of fear than that which relates itself to the historical imaginary of society?

[Pyrich]

Nope... it's a cultural revival not a genetic predisposition. Using ''historical beliefs'' as forms or torture and death seems like the right answer to a problem that's only fairly recent.

What's basically happening right now is that the gangs are in the middle of a war where fear plays a big part, there's the an escalation in the forms of ''instilling fear'' so the larger the war gets and the more social bonds that break the more rational it will seem to instill fear in the narco's enemies, so they are more or less experimenting with new/classic forms of fear.

What better form of fear than that which relates itself to the historical imaginary of society?

They're not quite gangs, they are international businesses and have been for decades. They used to work for Pablo Escabar (the King of the under world, bill gates of illegal activites internationally) out of columbia, the mexican cartels were mostly Pablo's runners, his delivery boys, pick up a shipment; take it to its designation. When los pepes executed Pablo his underworld empire crumbled, the mexican branch went into civil war.

Pablo kept a grip on them in his reign. They unhapply worked the way he wanted them too. After they broke out into civil war the mexican Feds decided enough was enough, then the cartels decided the Federal Government is out of line and taking a PR battle to the streets to pressure the Feds into submission.


Pablo literally owned the world in his day, today is different. The US and Cuban Navy's work somewhat closely to thrawt Jamacian and other caribean cartels, to which much of underworld Latin america is quite upset, feeling betrayed by the Cubans for "joining their enemy". You hear many latinos denounce Cubans as being purely american like europeans and not welcomed in their world, which is kinda ironic considering the same is true for 90% of them.

[Dr. Croccer]

ing hell...

[Imperial]

Why did we give back Mexico after we conquered it?

[Kanaric]

My friends keeps asking me to go to Tijuana or Encenada with them for spring break but I gladly refuse everytime I hear something new about how ridiculous it is down there.

Next we're going to find out they are worshipping Cthulu.

[boofhead]

I've seen some of those videos. They're evil, sick. They're so far from what anybody I know could do, and yet the people doing these things do it as easily as if they are preparing a meal. The one where the blonde woman decapitates the guy (very slowly and badly) and then they skin his head until it's just this grinning skull with eyeballs and then start poking the eyeballs with a knife comes to mind.

There's something very evil going on there.

I recall an incident when a 5 year old boy was kidnapped for ransom and they injected his heart with battery acid.

I really don't know how a nation is to deal with such a sick horror within its society. Maybe the best way is just to kill them all (these gangs), until there are none left to put the sickness into the next generation.

[Plan C]

Maybe the best way is just to kill them all (these gangs), until there are none left to put the sickness into the next generation.

He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.

Beyond Good and Evil, 1886, F. Nietzche

[boofhead]

He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.

Beyond Good and Evil, 1886, F. Nietzche

I wasn't suggesting the ones fighting them use their methods. Just shoot them should be enough.

It's not like exterminating the Taliban means Coalition troops are going to start cutting off heads and murdering prisoners.

[Delvecchio1975]

I wasn't suggesting the ones fighting them use their methods. Just shoot them should be enough.

If the government knew who they were exactly, wouldn't they simply arrest them? Even with the involvement of the army they haven't been able to do so over the past few years now ...

It's not like exterminating the Taliban means Coalition troops are going to start cutting off heads and murdering prisoners.

coalition troops have been known to engage in cruelty (not just abu graib) towards afghanis. as mentioned before, violence dehumanises ...

[hellheaven1987]

If the government knew who they were exactly, wouldn't they simply arrest them? Even with the involvement of the army they haven't been able to do so over the past few years now ...

In fact Mexican government did arrest suspects they know. The problem is, like Taliban, the middle level adminstration simply rise up to replace the higher-up that have been caught. In the end it becomes an endless cycle of arresting and promoting...

[boofhead]

If the government knew who they were exactly, wouldn't they simply arrest them? Even with the involvement of the army they haven't been able to do so over the past few years now ...

The government has been trying to fight them. These people don't take kindly to attempts at arrest. There have been numerous pyramids of naked decapitated, castrated cops placed by the side of the road. These people dismember police.

coalition troops have been known to engage in cruelty (not just abu graib) towards afghanis. as mentioned before, violence dehumanises ...

First, every war has some whackos go off their trees. But this is rare for the Coalition in the Middle East. Our troops tend to be decent folk, unlike our enemies.

As far as violence dehumanising...what else are the Mexicans meant to do? How would you deal with this non-violently?

I don't think anyone could. A counselling session with a 3rd-grade psychologist or a time-out naughty corner won't help.