Do we Have or do we not Have Free will?

[Ensiferum]

The definition of free will I am using: Free Will is the apparent ability of agents to make choices free from certain kinds of constraints.

If you are going to use an other definition then the definition I just posted, please post the definiton you are going to use in your post.

Also post if you belive the universe is deterministic or undeterministic, as it is closely related too free will.

Now My thoughts on free will.

I belive that the universe is deterministic, and therfore I belive everything in the universe is happening for a reason, so I belive the state of something is determined by prior states.

So becuase I belive that everything is happening for a reason I belive that if you calculated everything in the universe down to the atomic level. You could predict the future, as every possible variable whould then be included in the calculation, and with every possible variable included you could calculate the future state of the universe as the future state of the universe is determined by the present state of the universe.

And because humans are part of of the universe I then belive you could calculate what future choices a human whould make. And if you can calculate what choices a human will make free will can't exist.

So my summary:
Free will is and illusion, because the universe is deterministic.

But you can't live like you don't have free will becuase then you whould use the illusion free will to create an illusion of that you dont have free will. <-(got that one?

[Count of Montesano]

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Yes, the universe does factor in limiting certain choices, but there's still a huge area of debate about whether or not humans have real control over their lives or not.

For example, should a criminal who was constantly abused as children be given more lenient sentencing because his circumstances made it very hard to live a normal, law abiding existance?

Is a lack of personal responsibility to blame for drug addiction or obesity, or do genetics and environment also play a huge role?

How much is geography really destiny? Some economic experts like Thomas Friedman argue that in a globalized world united by technology, the people without access to the Internet are doomed to poverty no matter how hard they work.

[Ensiferum]

Yes you are showimg me different scenarios that may affect a persons decisions. But what I am wondering about is wether or not all the choices a person makes can be predetermined. As making choices that can't be predetermined is true free will.

Do you think all the choices a person makes can be predetermined?

[Time Commander Bob]

I belive that the universe is deterministic, and therfore I belive everything in the universe is happening for a reason, so I belive the state of something is determined by prior states.

So becuase I belive that everything is happening for a reason I belive that if you calculated everything in the universe down to the atomic level. You could predict the future, as every possible variable whould then be included in the calculation, and with every possible variable included you could calculate the future state of the universe as the future state of the universe is determined by the present state of the universe.

Physics fundamentally isn't deterministic. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle for example does not even allow both the momentum and the position of an object to be known simultaneously, not because of fault of measurement, but even with the most precise instruments one could think of. So unless the entirety of quantum mechanics is wrong (extremely unlikely) then this statement is incorrect. Sure you could calculate all the possible futures or universes but not the future of this universe.

Saying that, I agree in principle that humans probably don't have free will. Even if the universe isn't deterministic, quantum uncertainty I do not think can allow for genuine choice, its like playing snakes and ladders with a truly random die rather than a loaded one. For it to be so, every single human being must be like Aristotle's unmoved mover who purely by their own power makes a choice, which to me seems unlikely.
Furthermore, through induction it is demonstratable that one is aware of one's thoughts only after they have thought them. For example, when I think the word "blue" the thought must come into mind before the awareness of it does so, for one cannot perceive what is not there and to state that the brain acts with a speed that is instantaneous is physically impossible. This same principle can be easily applied to state that we are aware of our choices after we have made them, which clearly puts free will in trouble.

[Himster]

We are obviously influenced my many many things, biological, physical, chemical, metaphysical, instinctual etc. But we also have the faculty to overcome these pre-determining influences.

[Ensiferum]

We are obviously influenced my many many things, biological, physical, chemical, metaphysical, instinctual etc. But we also have the faculty to overcome these pre-determining influences.

Where is the line between what has free will and what does not have free will, for example does a bacteria have free will? If I belive living things have free will, I find it hard to draw the line on what has free will and what don't have free will. As the line between what is living and what is not living is very hard to draw when looking microscopic creatures.

[ParanoidPhantom]

While I don't like the idea of determinism because of the implications it would have for society (such as in sentencing/punishment of criminals) and because my instinctive reaction would be to say that of course I have free will, I've not yet found an argument that can successfully refute it. While every person feels like they are making free choices, if you look at all the factors that influence us it seems impossible that we could actually make a genuine free choice (when a genuine free choice is one in which the person could have chosen otherwise).

Of course even if determinism is correct it can't make any real difference to our lives at the moment since we don't have the ability to follow every single chain of cause and effect to make any accurate predictions and so we may as well just carry on living as though we do have free will.

[Taiji]

We don't have free will but there is something to be gained from believing that we do. It's part of what's determining a lot of things about our reality. We create reality partly with our will. But the choices we make are not beginning consciously. But then again, it's logical to assume some influence, or a relationship. Since if consciousness is an effect then it's also a cause, because effects don't happen in isolation. It also seems logical to assume a function. I doubt consciousness is somehow like the appendix (which I already know has functions remaining, but it's late so just get the point). It seems very flexible, so it probably gets some important tasks, some important areas of influence over the direction of the organism.

[Claudius Gothicus]

Human Action and Existence is a War that we fight everyday. And the worst part is that it's(IMO) a two front war.

On one side is Social Conditioning(institutions, customs, norms etc.) on the other social, biological and psychological instincts.

And in the middle, our rationality, fighting against both to accomplish it's will and reach dignity and happiness at the same time.

Freewill it's a though fight, but it exist as a constant conflict.

(and lol at your belief in universal determinism, it's not falsifiable and therefore out of any reasonable question)

[Tacitursa]

It's impossible to say untill we understand the brain more but i do believe people's decisions and direction in life is shaped by there emotions and experiences.

If you could map out a person's brain and had foresight of every situation they would encounter i think you could predict there life very accurately and where they would end up in 10-20 years

But that will never happens so we'll never know for sure

[RangerGxi]

If you use your freewill or your own brain you will go hell... not really a great gift from god...

[Col. Tartleton]

There is no free will. It's all butterfly effect. Fate or random chance both work fine, but you aren't in control of the universe. The thing is that there are so many factors involved in any noticeable event that it cannot be easily predicted.

However that is a terrible way to look at it in practice. So lets maintain the illusion that we are responsible for our actions and that me hypothetically murdering someone is different than gravity in it's inevitability and surety.

[Jack04]

It's difficult to say. In the context that you could argue, all things are inherently uncertain at a fundamental level (courtesy of quantum mechanics), perhaps "rebooting" the universe would lead to different results, everything may not be pre-determined. On the other hand, I don't really see free will as being hugely special as an potential element of our consciousness, if we make our decisions based entirely upon the make-up of our brains and the environment in which we have existed, those decisions are still unique to us, even if they are not inherently "free".

Edit: ... and to complete my comment on the pre-determined nature of our lives, if we reduce the universe example just down to our own decisions. It is entirely possible that if a fundamentally uncertain element exists in our decision making, "rebooting" and repeating a decision might lead to an entirely different consequence. That doesn't sound much like free-will, but it is contradictory to a pre-determined life as well.

[Col. Tartleton]

It's difficult to say. In the context that you could argue, all things are inherently uncertain at a fundamental level (courtesy of quantum mechanics), perhaps "rebooting" the universe would lead to different results, everything may not be pre-determined. On the other hand, I don't really see free will as being hugely special as an potential element of our consciousness, if we make our decisions based entirely upon the make-up of our brains and the environment in which we have existed, those decisions are still unique to us, even if they are not inherently "free".

Exactly. If we are making decisions to the best of our ability, there isn't free will, we're either right or wrong based on what our brains are working with and what environmental forces play a role.

[SigniferOne]

There is no free will. It's all butterfly effect.

I see, so you didn't really choose to write this post, did you.

[Col. Tartleton]

I see, so you didn't really choose to write this post, did you.

No, I had to. I saw the topic existed my brain responded with a response. There is no choice. It just happens. Same reason that you needed to read and respond my my response.

[Cooraan]

No, I had to. I saw the topic existed my brain responded with a response. There is no choice. It just happens. Same reason that you needed to read and respond my my response.

You can tell your brain no. If I'm starving to death and there is a plate of food in front of me, my brain will tell me to eat the food. But if I want to die I have the ability to do so; it would be a choice.

[Jack04]

You can tell your brain no. If I'm starving to death and there is a plate of food in front of me, my brain will tell me to eat the food. But if I want to die I have the ability to do so; it would be a choice.

Yes, that's undeniable. The question isn't whether you always follow first impulses however, it is whether, when making considered choices, you will always make the same one when placed in the same situation.

Ok. So then how do you know that the claim you made was the right one?

You have to trust that your brain will always follow the "best" route. Of course, you are still making the same considerations, balancing up the same pros & cons, it's just that you always arrive at the same decision (though, I rather suspect that for the reasons I outlined earlier, you probably don't).

[SigniferOne]

No, I had to. I saw the topic existed my brain responded with a response.

Ok. So then how do you know that the claim you made was the right one?

[Col. Tartleton]

Ok. So then how do you know that the claim you made was the right one?

It was the best I could do at the time. Maybe it was wrong. I made an observation.

I can be put in a situation where I make an intelligent or unintelligent choice in the sense I favored one over the other, but I favored one over the other for a reason. It wasn't a choice, it was a complicated equation with only one possible outcome. However give me the same choice a second later and it might have been totally different or identical.