Plebeian Suggestion Thread

[Apollyon]

Following the new units for the Pontos faction, I thought I'd give them a go.

As a result, I have a few suggestions.

The first is the same I made for the Barbarian factions; Infrastructure.

It needs improving. Late game is near impossible for all Eastern factions due to a lack of decent infrastructure. Roads, Temples and Health buildings are substandard compared to the Greek and of course Roman factions. Its probably one of the reasons the Antigonids steam-roll the East (after the other Greek factions are dealt with).

They can be upgraded using the Sassanid building models from Vanilla BI.

Second, more units are needed to combat the Greeks. You've started this with Carthage and Pontos (good additions). For instance, Pontos under Mithridates of Pontos (its last independant ruler) used imitation Legionnaires in their last wars against the Romans.

Eastern factions are always neglected, which I don't like. Barbarians get more exposure than the Eastern factions, and we know so much more about them.

[debux]

I believe Parthia once had hellenised units, such as the thureophoroi. Sadly, my only evidence for this is EB .

I agree with the OP. Maybe adding a Caucasian Swordsmen unit? Kind of around the stats of Hastati or Principes

[Apollyon]

I believe Parthia once had hellenised units, such as the thureophoroi. Sadly, my only evidence for this is EB .

I agree with the OP. Maybe adding a Caucasian Swordsmen unit? Kind of around the stats of Hastati or Principes

Thats what I was thinking. Caucasian Swordsmen (similar to Hastati in equipment) were notoriously hardy and independant. Basically, eastern Hastati, not as organised but very good in mountainous terrain (high stamina).

But my infrastructure was my main point. Its desperately needed. 5 tier temples, at least a 4th tier health and paved roads. They definitely had them (Royal Roads anyone?).

[debux]

Yeah, true. Sadly, I've never completed a BI campaign (I've barely ever started 2), so I can't say I know much there, therefore can't help much. I don't think it's that hard, just have to find the files and edit "export_descr_buildings", if I'm not mistaken. I don't know how to define the image to use for each building, though.

[Apollyon]

I've completed a few BI campaigns, one with the Sassanids (I do love that faction), another with ERE, and the Sassanids gave me a hard time the whole time.

Many mods have added buildings to vanilla factions, it shouldn't be too difficult.

[Apollyon]

Hate double posting, but hell, I have more suggestions.

These are in regards to the Italian peninsula;

1) Romans to be reduced in strength.
-The Great Samnite war had just ended, their military would have been weak. This suggestion may be a difficult one to implement (reduce starting infrastructure?). Maybe the easiest way to settle the issue would be the following;

2) Strengthen the other Italian factions.
-At the time, the Epirots did not have any territory in Italy. I would give Tarentum to the Greek Cities and give them a decent starting army in Italy.
-The Gauls in the North were a strong force (they were only fully subdued by the Romans after the Second Punic War), so would also benefit from an increase (a large militia stack?).

3) Strengthen the Epirots in Greece (land and naval).
-Even with Tarentum, they never survive long. They shouldn't own Tarentum, but certainly should be stronger than they are. A possible cash injection?
-The young Phyrrus went on to conquer Macedon for a short time, so a strong stack and at war with Macedon could allow survival.

4) Carthage Territory
-They held more than that. Most of the African Mediterranean coastline, Palma and the surrounding islands, even North Eastern Sicily (the rebel province).

[Cinuz]

I haven't read the whole thread because of a lack of time at the moment! I'll edit the post later with other answer, but I assure you that the eastern (all of them) are goin to have more units! I'm working on the skins right now (even though I'm working slowly due to some RL probs...)

[Apollyon]

I haven't read the whole thread because of a lack of time at the moment! I'll edit the post later with other answer, but I assure you that the eastern (all of them) are goin to have more units! I'm working on the skins right now (even though I'm working slowly due to some RL probs...)

Thats cool, glad to hear it.

In mods you should pay attention to all factions, even if they are not the major focus of the mod. No point in including a faction if your not going to pay as much attention to them as you will the factions that are important to the mods focus.

Same with Barbarian factions (but I think I've already got that message across ).

[Cinuz]

Okay, I've seen the other probs...well, let see...I didn't thought about adding new infrastructures to the easterns [I've never felt the need in my pontic campaigns], but from what I read it seems to be a common problem for some players, so I think something will be done in this way...

With the barbarians faction, I already thought about adding all of the BI barbarian infrastructures (new level for the cities, royal stables etc)...

About the italic factions and carthage: this is an hot point. To give or remove some settlement or money, could unbalance everything; i think comrade_general made this choice with these factions for gameplay's sakes, so I'm not sure about the modding in here...we'll see

[Apollyon]

Right, I have more suggestions, this time focussing on Greek factions.

Firstly Macedon. In comparison to the Epirots and Thrace, they are a very boring faction. No elephants (rightly so), no thureophoroi, nothing special. They are a poor mans version of the Epirots. Historically, they should be the biggest threat in the region.

I suggest a new unit. Either Hypaspists (loosly formed Hoplites, use swords instead of spears, and use javilins, a very elite regiment, definitely used by the Macedons, unlike Thorikiai, no evidence they were ever utilised by them), or an elite slinger unit (developed as a response to Rome's armoured legionnaires), or both!

Either would spice their roster up nicely.

Next, Seleucids. They definitely used Throkitai, but after their first war with Rome, they reformed them to fight more like the Legions (short sword instead of spear, javilins and chainmail armour). Very similar to Early Roman Legionnaires (though like the Carthaginian Scutarii, it'd be nice to give them a Greko-Persian twist, possibly give them the desert fighter advantage).

[Cinuz]

These problems are known. Here there are some of the changes I've proposed in the developers' forum, what you think about them?

"- Add agrianian javelinmen to macedon
- Add other 2-3 cavalry unit to the macedonian faction [one light, one missile, one heavy]. I noticed that the macedonian seems to be the "cavalry faction" among the successor, so i think we should characterize them more, since at the moment there are no particular reason to play with them. We could use the alex models. The new units would be prodromoi (light cav), thracian auxilia cavalry (missile cav), thessalian cavalry (heavy cav)"

[Apollyon]

These problems are known. Here there are some of the changes I've proposed in the developers' forum, what you think about them?

"- Add agrianian javelinmen to macedon
- Add other 2-3 cavalry unit to the macedonian faction [one light, one missile, one heavy]. I noticed that the macedonian seems to be the "cavalry faction" among the successor, so i think we should characterize them more, since at the moment there are no particular reason to play with them. We could use the alex models. The new units would be prodromoi (light cav), thracian auxilia cavalry (missile cav), thessalian cavalry (heavy cav)"

Definitely Thessalian Cavalry. Very good idea's here

I'd still have Hypaspists replace the Thorikitai. There's no evidence Macedon ever used Thorikitai, but Hypaspists were definitely used, and were very similar.

[Cinuz]

I'm a bit reticent in removing the thorakitai for gameplay reasons: this would be a disadvantage for the macedonians that in this way would lose their only sword unit....weren't the hypaspists no more existing in the diadochi era anyway? I knew they were used only by philippus and alexander, but they could anyway easily introduced by creating a new texture for hte ALEX expansion hypaspists

[Apollyon]

This one is in relation to Barbarians. If you follow my previous suggestion of increasing Barbarian settlement sizes (let them expand to the 4th, possibly 5th tier) then they deserve more units. You could probably take models from BI.

Firstly the Celto-Gallic faction. It always gets beaten. Always has done. So I recommend a Javelin Chariot unit (BI Celts have one). Chariots in Vanilla are powerful, and hopefully would help them out in their road-kill situation. This was done in XC, and as a result Rome rarely conquers Gaul (they go after the Germans instead). It makes historical sence, as Celtic societies used chariots, not just the Britons. I would also recommend a new Heavy Infantry regiment for them (and if kept, the Britons). Most other factions have an answer to Roman Legionnaires in this mod, and a Heavy Swordsmen unit (no javelins, not as disciplined, but tougher, and stronger in combat).

Next, we have the Germans. They were not a unified faction. They certainly should not possess all of the land they do (not strait away). I recommend they start off with 2 provinces (maximum), possibly the Denmark province and the Teutenbourg province (just as you've done with the Britons). Just like my suggestion for the Celts above, a Heavy Axemen regiment could work and would fit in well with their roster.

The Illyrians I really like. Very diverse, but they never do anything! There roster is awesome, but could be accomodated for without the Hellenic barracks (again, if an extra tier is added to the barbarians). I would suggest they start off with good infrastructure, at least one Port and Trader, as they were brilliant raiders, and would have been very rich as a result.

The Scythians have little that is needed. Possibly Bosphoran Infantry (as found in BI)? Spear infantry makes more sence then Axe infantry on the Steppes. If you want more Cavalry, again I recommend you look at the Sarmatians of BI, or include Barbarian Cataphracts.

The suggestions I have for the Iberians have already been hinted at. Heavy Scutarii, Heavy Spearmen (similar to Triarii), but also a Heavy Cavalry regiment (Sacred Band model comes to mind).

I'm a bit reticent in removing the thorakitai for gameplay reasons: this would be a disadvantage for the macedonians that in this way would lose their only sword unit....weren't the hypaspists no more existing in the diadochi era anyway? I knew they were used only by philippus and alexander, but they could anyway easily introduced by creating a new texture for hte ALEX expansion hypaspists

Fair point. I think most of the Diadochi did stop using Hypaspists (replaced them with Thorakitai), but I'm not so certain about the Macedons. They weren't used by King Phillip who was beaten by the Romans, but thats a good 150 years after the mod starts.

I do hope I'm not being annoying with all my suggestions.

[Cinuz]

Don't worry about your suggestions, keep them coming! As you can see i've asked comrade_general to sick this topic for you guys, so that you can see you are free to post your suggestions!

Your suggestions about the barbarians are all well thought and I agree with them, except for the Illyrians and the Schytians: in my games, the illyrians always kick everyone's ass, and the scythians manage to beat quite everyone 1 time on 2

[Apollyon]

Don't worry about your suggestions, keep them coming! As you can see i've asked comrade_general to sick this topic for you guys, so that you can see you are free to post your suggestions!

Your suggestions about the barbarians are all well thought and I agree with them, except for the Illyrians and the Schytians: in my games, the illyrians always kick everyone's ass, and the scythians manage to beat quite everyone 1 time on 2

Fair enough, I never see the Scythians or Illyrians do anything personally.

I'll be back with more suggestions soon, any word on when the next patch will come out?

[Apollyon]

I'm back, this time it is in regards to bodyguards.

I think this first suggestion is being taken up by the team already, but I don't see the point in bodyguard reforms. They should start off with their best cavalry.

Next, a recommendation for the Diadochi factions (not the Greek Cities or Massalia). Instead of Macedonian Cavalry as there bodyguard, why not Companion Cavalry? It's more historically accurate than anything else.

EDIT: Final suggestion on bodyguards (Macedonian ones), I was taking a look at the Vanilla Alex campaign, and thought the Macedonian General's (not Alex himself) are very good General models. I think its a shame there not used by mods. If you don't think they'd make good Generals for the Macedons, there's no denying they'd make brilliant Captain models.

Just throwing it out there, the last one is more asthetics.

[Apollyon]

One simple unit size suggestion.

Pontus Phalanx. They should be the same size as the Bronze Shields (120 at large, 240 at huge). Never did understand why Vanilla RTW decreased their Phalanx unit size.

[Cinuz]

Good point!

[Petroniu]

Thats what I was thinking. Caucasian Swordsmen (similar to Hastati in equipment) were notoriously hardy and independant. Basically, eastern Hastati, not as organised but very good in mountainous terrain (high stamina).

Caucasian Swordsmen??? Geez! After the Galatian invasion a part of them settled somewhere near modern day Ankara (central Anatolia). They were mainly swordsmen. There is evidence of them being used as mercenaries by the Succesor Kingdoms. Who says not by the Pontic one too??

(let them expand to the 4th, possibly 5th tier) then they deserve more units.

Barbarians didn't bothered too much with organization so they didn't settled in big cities but large towns. Bigger cities wouldn't be historically accurate. They don't need to expand to get more units. It's a problem of assigning units to the barracks. I will approach this later.

I recommend a Javelin Chariot unit (BI Celts have one) I would also recommend a new Heavy Infantry regiment for them . Most other factions have an answer to Roman Legionnaires in this mod, and a Heavy Swordsmen unit (no javelins, not as disciplined, but tougher, and stronger in combat).

No chariots!! Dear god!! The chariots are overpowered in RTW allready. Plus, only the britons used them strongly for military use. To counter the romans give them some heavy spearmen and don't forget the heavy infantry from vanilla - those noble swordsmen or something like that. They are thougher and stronger (I am talking about stats) than the roman infantry. Ofcourse, they lack discipline.

The Illyrians good infrastructure, at least one Port and Trader, as they were brilliant raiders, and would have been very rich as a result.

I agree! Definitely ports and trader, some biremes too for of course, raiding and blocking ports and trade of the enemy factions. That should be one of their strong points.

The Scythians more Cavalry, again I recommend you look at the Sarmatians of BI, or include Barbarian Cataphracts.

Barbarian Cataphracts??? Dear God! No! Where are your historical facts??Definitely Sarmatians!! I vote for that. They would probably be employed as mercenaries (since the sarmatians drove the scythians out of the steppes eventually) but you could add them to the unit roster.

the Iberians Heavy Scutarii, Heavy Spearmen (similar to Triarii), but also a Heavy Cavalry regiment (Sacred Band model comes to mind).

I agree with the infantry but the iberians did had their Iberian Heavy Cavalry (that threw javelins too!). They had a varied army, they didn't copied no one, definitely not the carthaginian invaders. In fact, the romans would adopt the iberian gladius as the main weapon for their marian legions.

Fair point. I think most of the Diadochi did stop using Hypaspists (replaced them with Thorakitai), but I'm not so certain about the Macedons. They weren't used by King Phillip who was beaten by the Romans, but thats a good 150 years after the mod starts.

They used Hypaspists in the Successor wars. They were elite macedonian units. I agree that they were probably replaced with time (mainly because of the rise of the roman legions and the need to adapt the armies in order to counter that new style).

As for the Barracks issue I was talking above:
Let me give you a very good suggestion (in my opinion). Make the Militia units recruitable from the governors villa/palace buildings (since they were levied only in case of emergency and weren't a permanent army historically) and make the first tier of barracks support the first tier units, the second tier barracks for the second tier units and so on.
Now really, why build a barracks in a city if you don't have some sort of a professional unit to recruit from there? Doing what I told you will surely make the game much more dynamic. The Barbarians could employ some of their elite units on the field and be much stronger and harder to conquer by the romans. Also, the romans would get to use the triarii in their armies. And don't think that they could get stronger. Not quite actually. The difference from hastati and principes is that the latter have plus 2 points to the pilum attack and defence. And lets not forget Carthage. They would finally come with some proper armies. Not huge stacks of militia and iberian swordsmen.
Please think at this. It will surely improve your mod.