Mongol Total War

[JCDC]

DISCLAIMER: i know this idea isnt new, and lots bits have been mentioned about it in recent threads but i wanted to bring all that discussion together here, so keep it to that. dont come and explain why rome 2 would be better, not interested, thats been covered ad nauseam. this is a thread for discussion Mongol total war only. please.


How has this not happened yet?

there have been a couple of poll thread up for potential new games recently but neither have mentioned this possibiility. surely this is bursting with total war potential? the mongol armies were touched on in MTW and showed huge promise, but with the detail and game mechanics of shogun 2, can you imagine how good it could be?

here are some thoughts on why it would be amazing:

1) the map area. it would be epic, and cover everything not covered so far! who wants to go back to europe again? China! the steppes! Russia (properly this time) the middle east, the far east. all these awesome places and their varying topography.

2) the armies. In MTW, Empire and Shogun the armies are all pretty much the same, the differences are ususlly in the colour of their clothes. Mongol total war would see the elite cavalry armies of the mongols fighting the vast pesant armies of the chinese, and the spearmen of persia, and the elephants of india, and the heavy cavalry of the Rus. every army would be different, the variety of tactics and strategy would be immense, every battle would be different. there would be every type of unit under the sun, from classic pesants with sticks to early cannons and rockets.

2) the epic scale strategy. no more fiddiling around in valleys and constant castle battles, now you can take your great armies accross the vast steppes of mongolia, re-unitng the tribes before crossing the great wall into the vast plains of central china. you dont have to defend every border and micromanage 10 enemies at once like being a european state, you can concentrate on one enemy at the time and let the geography and distances take care of the others.

3) the epic historical events. you can conquer a mongol empire bigger than all the previous maps put together, or take the side of the persian caliphs, and try to hold back the mongol horde as it pours over the mountains. you can fight as the mameluks and defeat the mongols in the heart of the holy land, or be the defeated austrian army cowering behind the gates of vienna waiting for the hammer blow that will never come. you can be the master of the great knights templar, fighting his last stand on the banks a river in hungary as the great Tsubadai swirls his forces around you. or you can be the Rus prince, desperately trying to defend muscow from the terror that comes in the night.

4) the challenge. some previous total war games have lacked a certain level of dfficulty, which has been compenstated for by simply making your people harder to control, by making everyone attack you all at once, and neven stop, and other contrived things. lets face it, empire was a great game, but winning was formulaic. In Mongol total war it would be different: Do you have what it takes to unite the mongol tribes? or will you fail and be forgotten to history. Do you have what it takes to hold the wall against the horde and save the forbidden city and your emperor? Do you have the skill to protect your people of the russian steppe against the genocidal foe? can you make the right decisions and sacrifices?

no more trade wars which give you the money to spam win armies, no more winning european campaign on MTW just by having better merchants or by winning enough battles and keeping the rate of attrition up to ineveitable victory. what about a situation where you are faced with an enemy you cannot beat in open battle? what about facing an army 10x the size of your own and having to defeat it? what about fighting for the very survival of your vast persian nation against an unstoppable foe? what about making a mistake that means you cannot aviod defeat? of having a pivotal battle that will decide your fate, rather than lots and lots of relatively unimportnat one. is it better to fight 100 battles to win a war, or to sometimes be faced with the situation where you have to throw all the chips on the table at once and have to choose the time to make your stand, all or nothing. which is what so many enemies of the mongols had to do. something that doesnt happen in most other TW series games


The scale of mongol total war could be amazing, and the sheer playability of so many armies and situations would last for ever. shogun 2 is brilliantly detailed, but lacks scope, which is a nice change from the epic empire, but in empire, you are basicly always having one line of men shooting at another lie of men, it got dull lets face it. Rome had amazing variety of units and tactics, but the game mechanics couldnt live up to the situation. MTW2 had too much micromanagement, and battles became too frequent, and too irrelevant, you were always fighting on 16 fronts at once with 30 armies and couldnt lose at that point. Mongol can be the best of both worlds, the tactics and unit detail of shogun, the variety of units and armies of Rome, and the scale and epicness of empire all combined a challenge, and genuine risk of losing and of course

with everyones favorite army

THE MONGOLS!!!



The cover of the new game?

The battlefield theme music?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXvKvO77yNQ (credit to pharoh for finding, he shall be rewarded with the land of the tartars)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7AS_...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHGOuPyNnTg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gN6cJ1lmyZo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzbERNNdfbU

Discuss.




.

[Pharoah]

Should mongole total war have this music?

[JCDC]

yes. we have the poster, we have the theme tune, now just the small matter of the game.

[Pharoah]

+ the song is from shogun

[nhinhonhinho]

Nice review however ironically we have some problem

1.Historical resources (especially number of troops)! Somehow Western views often debate Eastern views. For example: China often use 10000 as their basic army's number and armies can reach a number of millions men while in Western views "according to technology at that time" few thousand are "great" and more than 10000 troops mean "imminent" army and a hundred thousand are impossible! Beside that unlike Western historians who less influenced by political, Eastern historian often heavily influenced by political and "honor of their country" (which can even lead to completely fake stuff) . So in my opinion historical resources will be a major problem

2.No idea about this but it's seem most guys (most of players) like Western history than Eastern and while mention to Eastern they know only Japan!

3.Pirate! We all know Eastern land is the land of piracy so i doubt EA are willing to made a game for pirates!

[Colonel Cleg McLeg]

Great post. I absolutely agree.

1.Historical resources (especially number of troops)! Somehow Western views often debate Eastern views. For example: China often use 10000 as their basic army's number and armies can reach a number of millions men while in Western views "according to technology at that time" few thousand are "great" and more than 10000 troops mean "imminent" army and a hundred thousand are impossible! Beside that unlike Western historians who less influenced by political, Eastern historian often heavily influenced by political and "honor of their country" (which can even lead to completely fake stuff) . So in my opinion historical resources will be a major problem

A very valid point, but CA have done just fine in the past at being completely blind to inconvenient historical facts. All we need is for them to continue.

2.No idea about this but it's seem most guys (most of players) like Western history than Eastern and while mention to Eastern they know only Japan!

Not sure about that. Genghis Khan is a name that's famous all around the world. When it comes to Asian history taken as a whole, then you're right, but I say that's all the more reason to go ahead and make the game! The bulk of Asia is sadly neglected by western media, but with Genghis Khan as the poster boy and CA's hype machine behind it, I reckon a Mongol: Total War would do fine.

[goro]

damn that soundtrack is awesome and would be great in battle.you got any other like that?

[Pharoah]

damn that soundtrack is awesome and would be great in battle.you got any other like that?

it is from the originall shogun total war

[JCDC]

try this one

it has your signature in it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzbERNNdfbU

this is pretty good too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHGOuPyNnTg

and the first part of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gN6cJ...eature=related

Damn these would make good battle music for Mongol total war

and yes these are all from the movie mongol. and no im not basing the whole game on that film! but its going in the right direction.

[steppeking]

I'd like to contribute some arts for Mongol army.

[goro]

OMG Amazing +rep

[JCDC]

This is getting good now! im not going to add the artwork to the top of the thread, cuse i think people wont miss it , but thanks for the amazing contribution!

we have the artwork, we have the music, we have the setting, we have the poster, all we need now is someone to make the game, someone who has made total war games before. can anyone think of someone?

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Lol, nazi mongols.

[visser300]

OP made a good points but:

1. The scale of the Mongol:TW is too large. The game must cover from the sea of japan to Eastern Europe. It is just tooooo big for current technology to handle in high details.

2. History accuracy: Factions of China has huge man power resource and if AI takes control of Mongol, Mongol never make it pass through Mongol-China border (just like Oda clan)

3. complexity game play: In R2TW, it make senses if Gaul or Carthage or Egypt tried to dominate the world. In Mongol TW, the objectives might be very different with each other (Song dynasty will need to unite China and defeat Mongol, Japan needs to unite itself and conquer Korea, Khawa.. needs to unite Arab world and Hungary needs to conquer Jerusalem. Trust me I'm a student of software engineer and this kind of game play is really really complicated to develop.

I dont against your proposal. In fact, as a Chinese guy I really want this game but the fact is you cant have it in next couple of years

[-=PHX=-Hades]

OP made a good points but:

1. The scale of the Mongol:TW is too large. The game must cover from the sea of japan to Eastern Europe. It is just tooooo big for current technology to handle in high details.

I don't think this would be a problem at all. Look at the graphics on Battlefield 3 and tell me that current technology can't handle a large map. The problem would be more with the battles since Mongols used primarily cavalry you would need very large battlefields in order to not only have the vast size of the Mongol army, but also to be able to maneuver them.

P.S. I like this idea fine. I just like the idea of Rome 2 or Victoria better.

[JCDC]

@visser300

interesting point, i like to hear from people who really know what they are talking about. however i have some solutions.

1. lower the resolution, compress the map to make it the same size as the european map, or slightly larger, nothing stopping that from happening, you will lose some detail but make it possible.

2. historical accuracy isnt so important to CA it seems, only the historical setting, the whole point of the game is to re-write history? why not have the song dynasty conquer the mongols in game, it would be fun. the historical setting is just the start, after that you take it from there.

3. this can be solved by bonuses and scripting, make the AI mongols have advantages, and like in MTW make it invade china automatically. each nation has its own objectives like in MTW2 and empire, you can play a version of campaign where you have to world dominate, and you can also have a version where you have to capture certain provinces and defeat certain enemies, not impossible to do, diffucult maybe but not impossible.

[Panda9903]

Before you do anything i really recommend reading The Secret History of the Mongols western sources may not be as historically accurate

I am Mongolian so if you have any questions about the history or something else about the mongols ask me

PS:nice idea man I always had an idea about that after M2TW came out

[Colonel Dax]

The problem is that the Mongols were nomadic. I can't see that working particularly well with the current TW campaign map.

[-=PHX=-Hades]

The problem is that the Mongols were nomadic. I can't see that working particularly well with the current TW campaign map.

Didn't even think of that. Good point.

[Scramuel]

Didn't even think of that. Good point.

So I guess now with Attila we can see how being nomadic works

i think that problems regarding the differences between Europe and Asia would be part of the fun, just like the real Mongols you wouldn't be able to use the same tactics all the time, you would be forced to change tactics based on your enemies. I agree that the scope of the map could be smaller much like in empire where France for example was one region in its own right.

I think it would be cool to have the map stretch from Japan and Korea to Spain and the British Isles, and then From Russia and Scandinavia to Persia and India. This would create a sense that you were in a contingent world where things happened even if you weren't involved.

india especially seems like an untapped gold mine of content