[Amendment] Patronisation Incentive Bill

[Omnipotent-Q]

I disagree with you here. I don't think the incentive to stay is as prominent as you say it is with citizenship. Citizenship isn't set up in a way that lends itself to a focus upon retention.

The difference here is that raw figures support my point of view while your point of view is outright assumption.

This isn't recorded or required. The Curia hasn't shown much interest in the patron/client relationship in recent times, and my own experience with 4 potential clients seems to indicate that getting to know someone through the patronisation process isn't omnipresent. On the otherhand, the fact that citizens are given a vote as a reward is a privilege that is recorded in the Constitution. And for your comment that "It is and always has been first and for most" about retention, I present imb's outline about the Citizen from here

The Curia when setup originally all those years ago had retaining members in mind. You had a small site, you wanted to keep people around - and to be honest, it's done the job well. We've got Citizen's who may not post in here, who have long lost their links with Total War in an active contributing sense, but have been here for years nonetheless and they're always around where they most probably wouldn't be if it wasn't the other things to do on the forum working in tangent with the added stake perception they've got in the site through Citizenship. Yes people make friends here when being patronised - and that's a very good thing, it's another pip on the board for carrying on posting at TWC as opposed to many many other forums and sites on the web. But it's not the only one citizenship provides - you don't get a badge for pretty much just posting on most other forums, you don't get the bigger say if you need it like other sites, you don't get user titles...a funky coloured names. These are factors that help to retain members we want to retain here. I really don't understand how you can't see that really, but again, quantitatively I could make an easy case for my opinion so I will do so. That's right I'm going to spend a good 7 hours collecting data just to prove something apparently everyone has known for ages except you and a few other people.

From day 0 the Curia's biggest benefit is member retention. When Ogresnet owned the site and as we all know considered deleting the Curia, it was only the intervention of the likes of Sulla, various other people, and indeed myself as one of their admins on another of their sites, pushing forward the clear benefits from a technical web perspective laced with analytics that made them think "ok this is more useful than we think".

If it's a stakeholder problem with groups that are excluded then the issue at play here is surely the requirements for citizenship. If RPG players are having their citizenship applications knocked back because they aren't contributions, you'll want to change the requirements.

Nope - nothing to stop them applying for citizenship, there's no requirement against it. It just doesn't happen because we haven't got enough people out there interested in patronising people. If there's anything I do know well about the Curia, it's how the site can benefit from getting key people with key skills more interested in the site, and Citizenship plays a role in that. A few years ago when the site was smaller, I maintained a simple database of potential citizen's that could add stuff to the site. I went around pushing people together - suggesting x person gets involved patronising x person, or even trying to patronise them myself. If I look at it today and look around the forum to see who could add something to the Curial processes or could be useful in getting people to foster forum relationships with to help them keep here, I'm some what shocked and disgusted by the number of obvious people missed. No wonder people say the Curia's not useful - it can't discuss a lot of things effectively, because there's a mass amount of people not patronised who are near essential to such conversations. Give me a few days and I could get you fifty people easily worthy of citizenship based on precedence (that's not my opinion that they should be I like to point out - but the precedence of people become Citizen's).

Don't just take the gold level one. It'd be like me saying a significant contribution is only for a gold mace. For the bronze, you need to patronise three people. Three people you don't need to know at all. That would be three paragraphs worth

There's more work than that to patronise people! My process is normally a two week monitoring of the member, followed by an infraction check with a friendly moderator, followed by writing paragraphs and proofing. I could argue patronising people could be more work in some circumstances, than say, getting CdeC bronze if there isn't enough votes going on. That and it's not all about needing to know them - simply bringing them in, bigging them up, giving them a shiny badge and making them feel welcome is a contribution that should be encouraged. See Medals are in some ways about rewarding yes, but people forget it's also about encouraging them to continue with their actions. You don't give out an Opifex hoping the modder's going to retire from whatever work they're doing - you give it out to pat them on the back, and encourage them to do more. Reward is a really dirty word for me in the Curia I must be honest.

I don't doubt that being a citizen makes someone more likely to stay at TWC, but I really, really don't think patronisation itself is a contribution worthy of praise and reward.

Ah this is the thing. Medals is a word associated technically with VBulletin. However, Medals doesn't always have to be - "here's a medal - i pin it on your jumper, now off". This is not about reward. It's about encouraging people to go about a productive practice of trying to keep people here by means of patronisation. When thinking about this problem - the problem of not enough of the good posters and contributors being citizen's, everything about it stunk of being afraid of the patronisation process, being afraid of going for it. We chuck an added incentive into the patronisation process, you've got people on the forum being reminded every day by the odd medal here and there (or in front of their face if they have one) that they should be thinking about who could be good to bring to the party. Who can add more value to the site with a bigger say in affairs.

I just oppose this proposal. I don't oppose people becoming citizens who are worthy of the title.

So you oppose the one idea someone's come up with to help make more people who are worthy of Citizenship have it because of the size of the incentive? Yes it's a medium medal - it's a few more pixel's bigger than a small one. I honestly don't see the problem in giving someone a cheeky medal to encourage them to get more people involved in the site - really, have we become that anal in the Curia now that giving someone a 30 by 40 pixel to do something useful on a continual basis is a problem? Why is it a problem? I really don't understand why it should be such a big deal?

I'm sorry if I was over-the-top in my last post or was personal - it was not my intention. Merely it is my firm and honest opinion that they'll be two opinions on this proposal:

• Support - Could be worth a try - it may or may not work, but would give it a go if it means more bodies in the Curia, more people getting recognised for good posting and contributions, and an added bonus of them having an extra something to push them to keep coming back here again and again.
• Oppose. Don't like the fact the medal has an "absurd" 39 by 40 pixels size/there's no problem having very little new people coming in/diversity is overrated when it comes to getting input on the site from the broad array of visitors/I don't want my badge to become more rare

So I put this question to everyone - Should the Curia change, or do you in fact feel the place is as useful as it possibly could be?

[irishron]

Did I reaffirm my support? If not, I do now.

['Gunny]

It goes now from my hesitant support to

Support.

[Genius of the Restoration]

The difference here is that raw figures support my point of view while your point of view is outright assumption.

Can you give me these raw figures you speak of? You haven't actually provided them. I'm curious to see how you draw conclusions about what the Curia's main function is by both relegating what is written about it in the Constitution and what actions it actively takes to inferior.

The Curia when setup originally all those years ago had retaining members in mind. You had a small site, you wanted to keep people around - and to be honest, it's done the job well.

Seeing as you have the raw figures to back this up, I'm going to ask for them.

We've got Citizen's who may not post in here, who have long lost their links with Total War in an active contributing sense, but have been here for years nonetheless and they're always around where they most probably wouldn't be if it wasn't the other things to do on the forum working in tangent with the added stake perception they've got in the site through Citizenship.

And again. Only raw data please, no arguments about how probable it is. That would be outright assumption and we both know you don't approve of it.

Neither of our arguments are supported by a number of people retained by the Curia because there isn't one. Beyond asking every single citizen, you can't quantify how many citizens are active due to their badge. The number of citizens who are active in proportion isn't necessarily relevant, as assuming that this is due to the Curia would be a classic case of assuming causation by mere correlation. My argument, however, receives support by the descriptions of the Curia and citizenship both past and present. Can you present one example from any Constitution of the site where a rationale behind citizenship has been retention, let alone the "first and for most" reason? Genuine question, I actually haven't seen anyone say it before.

Yes people make friends here when being patronised - and that's a very good thing, it's another pip on the board for carrying on posting at TWC as opposed to many many other forums and sites on the web.

Making friends through patronisation isn't required though!

But it's not the only one citizenship provides - you don't get a badge for pretty much just posting on most other forums, you don't get the bigger say if you need it like other sites, you don't get user titles...a funky coloured names. These are factors that help to retain members we want to retain here.

I can see that they are there as a perk to reward and encourage further contributions. That's not the sum of citizenship though is it? It isn't about getting a fancy name and a user title. If the Curia gets threatened with being shut down you don't hear people complain about their lack of user titles, it's the idea that they will be denied participation and involvement in the running of the site that is bemoaned.

I really don't understand how you can't see that really, but again, quantitatively I could make an easy case for my opinion so I will do so. That's right I'm going to spend a good 7 hours collecting data just to prove something apparently everyone has known for ages except you and a few other people.

Up to you. I'm relatively new to TWC compared to you. I really wouldn't be surprised if there were more people like me out here.

From day 0 the Curia's biggest benefit is member retention. When Ogresnet owned the site and as we all know considered deleting the Curia, it was only the intervention of the likes of Sulla, various other people, and indeed myself as one of their admins on another of their sites, pushing forward the clear benefits from a technical web perspective laced with analytics that made them think "ok this is more useful than we think".

Didn't know that. Can you provide more detail on this?

Nope - nothing to stop them applying for citizenship, there's no requirement against it. It just doesn't happen because we haven't got enough people out there interested in patronising people.

Serious? They're not applying because they wont pass. The last applications that have come to CdeC with roleplaying as lead contribution have been denied with the message that it isn't a contribution. There's nothing stopping them from applying, but why on earth would you bother if the overwhelming opinion in CdeC is that it isn't worthy. Only one councillor voted in favour in each application.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=447188
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=425374
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=421001

There's more work than that to patronise people! My process is normally a two week monitoring of the member, followed by an infraction check with a friendly moderator, followed by writing paragraphs and proofing.

This isn't mandatory, the last application was even invalid because the moderation check didn't happen. You're own method may involve work, but there's no saying that this level of attention will be emulated by others. My own experience tells me it isn't. The two of us, with different experiences of patronisation, surely indicate that there's no hard and fast rule of what patronisation means to everyone on TWC. Given that the requirements for it aren't strenuous, I oppose rewarding someone who does the bare minimum for a significant contribution that they didn't do. Maybe the world of patronisation has moved on since the old days...

I could argue patronising people could be more work in some circumstances, than say, getting CdeC bronze if there isn't enough votes going on.

And if it's a really, really difficult sub-forum a local mod could conceivably do more work than a patroniser too. I'm arguing about the requirements, not how much work someone could possibly do, far beyond what is necessary.

That and it's not all about needing to know them - simply bringing them in, bigging them up, giving them a shiny badge and making them feel welcome is a contribution that should be encouraged. See Medals are in some ways about rewarding yes, but people forget it's also about encouraging them to continue with their actions. You don't give out an Opifex hoping the modder's going to retire from whatever work they're doing - you give it out to pat them on the back, and encourage them to do more.

There are undoubtedly two parts. I've said before that I think patronising people is good. I don't dispute you here. I'm just opposed to the reward part.

This is not about reward. It's about encouraging people to go about a productive practice of trying to keep people here by means of patronisation.

How can it only be about encouraging? It has to be both, because the incentive is personal reward? It can't just be one.

So you oppose the one idea someone's come up with to help make more people who are worthy of Citizenship have it because of the size of the incentive?

No, that's by the way. I oppose anyway, but while I'm here I might as well question why it's proposed for medium size rather than small.

Yes it's a medium medal - it's a few more pixel's bigger than a small one. I honestly don't see the problem in giving someone a cheeky medal to encourage them to get more people involved in the site - really, have we become that anal in the Curia now that giving someone a 30 by 40 pixel to do something useful on a continual basis is a problem? Why is it a problem? I really don't understand why it should be such a big deal?

Hey, I'm just asking for a justification for your decision to make a medium award not a small one. There must have been a reason behind it. I've given my reasoning of why it shouldn't be medium-sized, your turn. There are different sizes for a reason. If the only reason you've got is "why is it a problem" there's something missing.

I'm sorry if I was over-the-top in my last post or was personal - it was not my intention.

That's okay, no damage done. Hope I haven't offended you anywhere.

Merely it is my firm and honest opinion that they'll be two opinions on this proposal:

• Support - Could be worth a try - it may or may not work, but would give it a go if it means more bodies in the Curia, more people getting recognised for good posting and contributions, and an added bonus of them having an extra something to push them to keep coming back here again and again.
• Oppose. Don't like the fact the medal has an "absurd" 39 by 40 pixels size/there's no problem having very little new people coming in/diversity is overrated when it comes to getting input on the site from the broad array of visitors/I don't want my badge to become more rare

Must you keep doing this? Why is everyone who opposes your proposal such a negative person? I've got my own version of oppose: find the medal size disproportionate, but might support if it were closer aligned to the requirements asked/the problems of the Curia's diversity won't be fixed by this. Why is absurd in quotation marks? Did I say that?

So I put this question to everyone - Should the Curia change, or do you in fact feel the place is as useful as it possibly could be?

No, I don't feel it is as useful as it could possibly be. The Curia should, and will, change. I oppose this change though. Oh heaven forbid that I'm with the group that opposes everything out of self-interest! Maybe we should all have an open discussion somewhere else about the direction the Curia should be taking and what citizenship is all about. It's tangetically related to this proposal but I'm sure it'll come up again in future Bills. Bet there'll be a huge range of opinions. Could be fun.

[Omnipotent-Q]

Can you give me these raw figures you speak of?

These figures do not exist in a format most would recognise - as I said it's going to take some significant time I could be doing other things to get them, but I will consider it and get back to you before I do anything on this proposal. I won't lie to you though - it's going to be a significant ball ache. I already asked Simetrical when he was on Hexagon Council if such analytic data existed on Citizen's and it was more of a "Nope and no time to get them".

Neither of our arguments are supported by a number of people retained by the Curia because there isn't one. Beyond asking every single citizen, you can't quantify how many citizens are active due to their badge.

You make it sound like I said solely being a citizen is good on its own to retain members - I said it's a factor that if someone's a Citizen, they're more likely to stick around than one who isn't. Why? It's web development for forums 101 really - you've got a guy who's been made a citizen because he posts well and adds value to the forum (and therefore the site). If this person is felt more welcome by use of the Curial process - and they're given the added perks of being a citizen that aren't generally available on forums and sites considered competition on some level, they are more likely to carry on posting here than anywhere else on the world wide web. Does this make sense?

My argument, however, receives support by the descriptions of the Curia and citizenship both past and present.

I don't agree your argument does, but in any case, I prefer to talk in terms of the reality - not the well known gloss of a constitution many would regard as an RPG in itself. I couldn't care less what's written there - this proposal aims to have a knock on effect that will benefit the entire site - not this elitist corner of the forum that lacks real activity.

I can see that they are there as a perk to reward and encourage further contributions. That's not the sum of citizenship though is it? It isn't about getting a fancy name and a user title.

In reality it is though I'm not going to beat about the bush on that. The Curia has been saved from deletion and has had aspects of it through out its life - and that's keeping people interested and coming back and posting in this common community when they're beginning to wane in their Total War interest. The Common community in reality is no different to a lot of other forums really - but you through the badge in and the perks - you've got a core of people who keep visiting here to post and debate in CC instead of some other forum or site, yes because CC is a good place to go and talk about these things, but also psychologically at a level they feel they've got a stake in the site, or they can change their user title and have a funky badge here when they post. You don't get that everywhere - seriously where else have you seen a system like the Citizenship/Curial system on another forum or site?

Didn't know that. Can you provide more detail on this?

I need to tread a careful line here - essentially TWC came into the Ogresnetwork when the original founders/admins brought it into the network - Paul, Siblesz various others. I was partially responsible for running at the time, the biggest site in their games network - it is how I found TWC, and I would argue, its how I found to be a Civitate with less than 150 posts. Now ON never liked the Curia. There's no secret on that - when they eventually sold the site to Imb it was open knowledge that they were going to do away with it because it was "more trouble than its worth". They had thought about it on several occasions - the only reason they didn't is because admins based here (Especially Sulla) spoke up in defence of it from a point of view of "it won't be the same" if you remove it, people like the perks of the Citizenship system and it helps to keep people here. This reality surely should be shown by the uproar there was when it was heard that ON were going to delete it. There's plenty of information on it on the wiki - this particular article is relevant. If people didn't like these perks and it wasn't a factor in them staying here, then surely they wouldn't care if the Curia got deleted and they lost their badges? Surely they wouldn't even consider setting up a site somewhere else?

Serious? They're not applying because they wont pass. The last applications that have come to CdeC with roleplaying as lead contribution have been denied with the message that it isn't a contribution. There's nothing stopping them from applying, but why on earth would you bother if the overwhelming opinion in CdeC is that it isn't worthy. Only one councillor voted in favour in each application.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=447188
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=425374
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=421001

I agree with you on this. They don't apply because they won't pass, but similarly, people don't patronise people strongly linked with RPG's either for the same reason. I honestly think it's a big load of BS that they're not represented to an adequate level in the Curia.

This isn't mandatory, the last application was even invalid because the moderation check didn't happen. You're own method may involve work, but there's no saying that this level of attention will be emulated by others. My own experience tells me it isn't. The two of us, with different experiences of patronisation, surely indicate that there's no hard and fast rule of what patronisation means to everyone on TWC. Given that the requirements for it aren't strenuous, I oppose rewarding someone who does the bare minimum for a significant contribution that they didn't do. Maybe the world of patronisation has moved on since the old days...

Well if they don't do these checks they'll end up proposing someone who can't be proposed, get a minus number on the patronisation count as a result and won't get a medal or successfully patronise anyone. If anything this should help hammer home that if you do a half-arsed job at patronising, you'll get no treats.

That's okay, no damage done. Hope I haven't offended you anywhere.Must you keep doing this? Why is everyone who opposes your proposal such a negative person?

I didn't say anything about elitism being negative - it's negative from the viewpoint I come from and always have in regards to the Curia - and that's it's got to use it's core procedures to help the site grow and expand. Whether this is with ideas or simply getting more people interested in the site through various means. But that doesn't mean it's negative for everyone else - there's some real old school opinions on the Curia that would suggest there's too many in here already. If a change can be made to help the site become better, or in this case, it's attempting to get more people involved - more pally, more friendly....then I will always support that purpose and logic any day over whether or not we're keeping in line with a constraining document and precedence on what medal's about. I couldn't care less about that - I have objectively come to the conclusion out of several other ideas, that patronisation is a problem, and that this is the best low risk way to try and solve it. If anyone's got a better idea I'll be up for it. But in all my years experience on very many areas of how websites evolve and interactions on them from an analytical standpoint I know this is worth the shot if you look at the idea from the objective point of view I had and still do when I formulated it in the first place. If you do so I can't see any other opinion being got to than my own - so I've got to ask questions of opponents. I think talk of how medals should be because of some moral viewpoint on them is the opposite to how I think so It's difficult for me to understand. If it was in the best interests of the site to delete the Curia tomorrow, I'd support it. The best interests of the site and forum are way above anything else from my point of view.

[Garbarsardar]

I understand the concerns regarding an influx of below par applications; I think that we will need to trust the CdeC on that. The notion that the CdeC can be pressurized is a realistic concern but not confined to the specific case. I also do not see why a process such as patronization does not merit an award. No one can deny that patronization contributes to the site, no one can deny that a successful patronization is hard work both in selecting and in presenting a candidate n the appropriate manner.

I support this bill.

P.S. I would like to see the other half of this Bill. By other half, I mean the incentives for Curial participation. That will require a "new deal" for the Curia as a concept; what this "new deal" maybe I cannot fathom and whenever I dabbled in this I failed unceremoniously. However debates as the one between the present Curator and GotR in this thread give me hope.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

I understand the concerns regarding an influx of below par applications; I think that we will need to trust the CdeC on that. The notion that the CdeC can be pressurized is a realistic concern but not confined to the specific case.

One should never forget that this world is and it's well being is forever linked to the members after work stamina. This world sinks or swims on "the remains of the day." Have a bad/good day and it is reflected here. Good days will bring released mods and great ideas, bad or even worse days will reflect the humanity and lesser sides of both men and women.

each citizenship application a world unto itself, as they should be and each reflects the above. The CdeC like the tide, it will ebb & flow, also having it's good times and Bad. Let us hope that the citizenry acts with care when it elects the CdeC seat holders and that in turn the 19 voices that echo within the CdeC {seat holders plus user group access members} express concerned well being for these things that happen here within ...

"The Remains of the Day."

[happyho]

P.S. I would like to see the other half of this Bill. By other half, I mean the incentives for Curial participation.

Bring back Patrician (or something equivalent) for those that deserve it and contribute and participate actively in the Curia on a regular basis. Ghost voters (such as myself) and casual contributors who only visit the Curia when something shocking or integral to their interests occurs would not be eligible for Patrician or what ever. This way those that keep the Curia going could be given recognition for those contributions while placing a visible goal for those Citizens who aspire for something more.

Pros: New shiny badge to look forward to, maybe increase CdeC numbers back to 14 or 16 the way they used to be and give elect Patricians to the additional seats who would be as normal CdeC members, however the Patricians would be the ones to propose Citizens for Patrician with the entire CdeC voting on the Candidate.

Cons: Badge that identifies you as Patrician.

[Thoragoros]

Bring back Patrician (or something equivalent) for those that deserve it and contribute and participate actively in the Curia on a regular basis. Ghost voters (such as myself) and casual contributors who only visit the Curia when something shocking or integral to their interests occurs would not be eligible for Patrician or what ever. This way those that keep the Curia going could be given recognition for those contributions while placing a visible goal for those Citizens who aspire for something more.

Pros: New shiny badge to look forward to, maybe increase CdeC numbers back to 14 or 16 the way they used to be and give elect Patricians to the additional seats who would be as normal CdeC members, however the Patricians would be the ones to propose Citizens for Patrician with the entire CdeC voting on the Candidate.

Cons: Badge that identifies you as Patrician.

Bring back the Patrician rank? That I could support.

[Thoragoros]

These figures do not exist in a format most would recognise - as I said it's going to take some significant time I could be doing other things to get them, but I will consider it and get back to you before I do anything on this proposal. I won't lie to you though - it's going to be a significant ball ache. I already asked Simetrical when he was on Hexagon Council if such analytic data existed on Citizen's and it was more of a "Nope and no time to get them".

So the format is in a top secret language/code? I doubt it.

You're talking to a group of people that is composed mainly coders/scripters, so if we can't understand the format, these numbers be in Alien-esque.

You make it sound like I said solely being a citizen is good on its own to retain members - I said it's a factor that if someone's a Citizen, they're more likely to stick around than one who isn't.

Um...not necessarily. Just because two facts Correlate, does not mean they Relate.

The reason it seems as though 'Citizens stay around more' is because Citizenship is handed out to those who contribute! If you spend the time to Contribute, you most likely enjoy this place, and therefore will be hanging around. It is the person's interest in TWC and not the Badge itself that causes members to stick around.

I don't agree your argument does, but in any case, I prefer to talk in terms of the reality - not the well known gloss of a constitution many would regard as an RPG in itself. I couldn't care less what's written there - this proposal aims to have a knock on effect that will benefit the entire site - not this elitist corner of the forum that lacks real activity.

When throwing around the word 'Reality' please keep in mind we are discussing internet forum badges.

In reality it is though I'm not going to beat about the bush on that. The Curia has been saved from deletion and has had aspects of it through out its life - and that's keeping people interested and coming back and posting in this common community when they're beginning to wane in their Total War interest.

You keep insisting that simply flooding the Curia with Citizens will somehow save things. No, the system of the Curia needs to be modernized in order for the Curia to be revitalized.

Simply flooding people into a broken system won't fix the system.

I agree with you on this. They don't apply because they won't pass, but similarly, people don't patronise people strongly linked with RPG's either for the same reason. I honestly think it's a big load of BS that they're not represented to an adequate level in the Curia.

People who found or write for RPGs get Patronized and pass on a regular basis. People who simply play RPGs do not. Why? Because simply playing games is not, in and of itself, a real contribution.

I didn't say anything about elitism being negative

If the Curia being composed of TWC's most active and contributive members is elitist...then long live the elites.

[Genius of the Restoration]

Done! By the next time I reply this vote may have finished. Ah the tough life of a traveller!

You make it sound like I said solely being a citizen is good on its own to retain members - I said it's a factor that if someone's a Citizen, they're more likely to stick around than one who isn't. Why? It's web development for forums 101 really - you've got a guy who's been made a citizen because he posts well and adds value to the forum (and therefore the site).

This isn't disputed. I'm just not sure how many people are here specifically due to being citizens and nothing else. I really don't think you can quantify the effectiveness of citizenship in retention beyond asking every single one.

I don't agree your argument does, but in any case, I prefer to talk in terms of the reality - not the well known gloss of a constitution many would regard as an RPG in itself. I couldn't care less what's written there - this proposal aims to have a knock on effect that will benefit the entire site - not this elitist corner of the forum that lacks real activity.

We clearly have a different take on what the Curia is and is supposed to be. Just after this bit you quoted I asked you a question. "Can you present one example from any Constitution of the site where a rationale behind citizenship has been retention, let alone the "first and for most" reason? Genuine question, I actually haven't seen anyone say it before". If the gloss of the Constitution merely obfuscates "the reality" that you're talking about, I think there are many people who prefer the Constitution and citizenship as it is written down. Your reality of what citizenship means seems out of touch with the reality of what it means to other citizens including, but definitely not limited to, myself.

[quote]In reality it is though I'm not going to beat about the bush on that.[quote]This reminds me of your opening statement in this thread "New blood - the Curia needs more of it to get stuff done". I asked what you meant by this and you said "It's not all about "getting stuff done in the Curia". There's a common misconception that the bills people come up with in the Curia are the only positive influence the system has on the site but it couldn't be further from the truth". Now you've agreed that in reality citizenship is "about getting a fancy name and a user title". Seems like you've shifted a bit here. Clarification? Shall we just ignore the opening sentence? Should it be replaced with 'New blood - the Curia wants more as an incentive to keep people at TWC'. We have different views on this and I want citizenship to mean something other than an incentive to stay on the site.

>snip<
also psychologically at a level they feel they've got a stake in the site, or they can change their user title and have a funky badge here when they post. You don't get that everywhere - seriously where else have you seen a system like the Citizenship/Curial system on another forum or site?

I haven't. I have seen plenty of other forums that offer name changes and badges though. Like other forums, TWC offers members some fancy things. The feeling of being able to change the site is the unique flavour, and it isn't just to do with retaining members, else it could be open to everyone.

Now ON never liked the Curia. There's no secret on that - when they eventually sold the site to Imb it was open knowledge that they were going to do away with it because it was "more trouble than its worth". They had thought about it on several occasions - the only reason they didn't is because admins based here (Especially Sulla) spoke up in defence of it from a point of view of "it won't be the same" if you remove it, people like the perks of the Citizenship system and it helps to keep people here. This reality surely should be shown by the uproar there was when it was heard that ON were going to delete it. ... If people didn't like these perks and it wasn't a factor in them staying here, then surely they wouldn't care if the Curia got deleted and they lost their badges? Surely they wouldn't even consider setting up a site somewhere else?

I'm not saying citizenship isn't a factor in people staying here. I'm saying retention shouldn't be the aim of citizenship. Citizenship can be a much greater concept than just another way to keep people on the site.

Well if they don't do these checks they'll end up proposing someone who can't be proposed, get a minus number on the patronisation count as a result and won't get a medal or successfully patronise anyone. If anything this should help hammer home that if you do a half-arsed job at patronising, you'll get no treats.

Yet if you patronise three members by writing three paragraphs, of whatever length of quality, and send them to CdeC you'll get a medal for it. The level of contribution compared to other medium awards isn't nearly equal.

If a change can be made to help the site become better, or in this case, it's attempting to get more people involved - more pally, more friendly....

Are you talking about this proposal?

then I will always support that purpose and logic any day over whether or not we're keeping in line with a constraining document and precedence on what medal's about. I couldn't care less about that

Perhaps you should change the constraining document then? You are the Curator after all, surely you should at least pretend to care about what the Constitution says. Nothing's stopping you from proposing an amendment to the Constitution so that this proposed award would actually fit the description that it's being proposed for.

I think talk of how medals should be because of some moral viewpoint on them is the opposite to how I think so It's difficult for me to understand. If it was in the best interests of the site to delete the Curia tomorrow, I'd support it. The best interests of the site and forum are way above anything else from my point of view.

We have different goals though both of us want the best for TWC. Your best appears to be numbers from what I understand of your argument. My best involves more than that. If the visiting population of TWC doubled tomorrow that would be great, but that's not all I envisage, especially with regards to citizenship. As an experiment in internet socialisation it can be far more important and unique if you look at it qualitatively rather than quantitatively.

I also do not see why a process such as patronization does not merit an award. No one can deny that patronization contributes to the site, no one can deny that a successful patronization is hard work both in selecting and in presenting a candidate n the appropriate manner.

I'm skeptical. I'll break it down, yo

• An award, as I see it, is for contributions to TWC. When we're looking at these contributions they're quite a bit. The awards in the same category as this one is proposed for are: mace, quill, screwdriver, CdeC, curatorial service, loincloth, wiki, robes and artist. The level of required contribution isn't the same. Sure, some people might go above and beyond the required detail when patronising, but why look at what people might do when giving an award instead of what they have to do?

• A contribution to the site isn't the same as a personal work. The minimum level of personal work involved in patronising three members isn't at the same level for getting the other awards (usually). That patronisation helps the site is beyond question, but a medal is a personal reward. Every other award is for personal contributions to TWC, and rightfully so IMO as it is displayed only for that person. So while the contribution to the site might be good, the personal contribution of the award recipient isn't worthy of others who have put in more effort for similar thanks from the site.

I would like to see the other half of this Bill. By other half, I mean the incentives for Curial participation. That will require a "new deal" for the Curia as a concept; what this "new deal" maybe I cannot fathom and whenever I dabbled in this I failed unceremoniously. However debates as the one between the present Curator and GotR in this thread give me hope.

One day Garb, one day.

Left over point for Omni from last post:

Hey, I'm just asking for a justification for your decision to make a medium award not a small one. There must have been a reason behind it. I've given my reasoning of why it shouldn't be medium-sized, your turn. There are different sizes for a reason. If the only reason you've got is "why is it a problem" there's something missing.

I said and inferred in context I had figures that aren't in a presentable format. I've not changed my viewpoint on that. I also said it would take me some work to get it into a presentable format but do you know what? I'm not going to bother. You two just sit in your corner and wait for the Curia to do something and we'll see what happens. No way I'm spending hours collating it for the benefit of you two seeing the patent logic of this manoeuvre. It's like asking me to get figures to prove cars drive on roads - it is that obvious for most who've read this thread.

Can you please tell me how you know? You don't have to get the figures themselves, but can you tell me how you'd go about it? I'm genuinely curious and this isn't an attempt to bash you, despite you having another jab telling me to sit in my corner and wait for the Curia to do something. We've been over this, I want some change in the Curia. You're polarising the issue unnecessarily, it's not all one way or the other.

[Omnipotent-Q]

We clearly have a different take on what the Curia is and is supposed to be. Just after this bit you quoted I asked you a question. "Can you present one example from any Constitution of the site where a rationale behind citizenship has been retention, let alone the "first and for most" reason? Genuine question, I actually haven't seen anyone say it before". If the gloss of the Constitution merely obfuscates "the reality" that you're talking about, I think there are many people who prefer the Constitution and citizenship as it is written down. Your reality of what citizenship means seems out of touch with the reality of what it means to other citizens including, but definitely not limited to, myself.

Exactly - you've bought into the whole idea and others have to. Brilliant, fantastic! But it's not reality. I know the ins and outs of every constitution we've had so forgive me if I'm "out of touch".

The constitution is for interpretation and simply outlines the processes and procedures of how the thing works - not anywhere does it cover in detail why it exists and for what purpose. Your suggestion that it does is incorrect. The constitution says next to nothing about it all being about "contributions" to get into the Curia - it merely says:

Contributing members of TWC have the opportunity to become a Citizen of the Forum

Ergo that does not mean that people can apply their subjective viewpoints reviewing contributions in patronisation applications like some sort of review in a magazine - it means contextually, that if you post well, you are contributing and can become a Citizen.

The guiding principle of the site is to be that barring technical or fiscal obstacles, any considered mandate from the appropriate legislative body of contributing members will be implemented by the administrators.

Why does it say this? Because idea's taken up by a group representing the membership suggests that the idea would go down well with the visitors to the site. Ergo, if the Curia fails to have decent representation of all types of contributing members to the site (content, RPG's, news, modding, whatever else) - then it fails in it's guiding unwritten principle - that being, the "mandate" the suggestion, that an idea will go down well if implemented. My attempt to increase the number of people being patronised is an attempt to increase the available mandate for innovation in the Curia.

I haven't. I have seen plenty of other forums that offer name changes and badges though. Like other forums, TWC offers members some fancy things. The feeling of being able to change the site is the unique flavour, and it isn't just to do with retaining members, else it could be open to everyone.

A unique flavour that helps retain members in tandem with other site activities.

Can you please tell me how you know?

It's a multiple method format - but simply put, take the active members of the Citizen's group - take their average time on site before they were citizen's/number of visits-avg per week - compare with after they become a Citizen. Generally, you get something like this crappy graph I just made in paint. (It's a lot more of a complicated picture of course)
Crappy graphical example of the life cycle of one posting member

1 - User Registers
---Ignore the state of the graph inbetween 1-2 as it's not relevant to our debate---
2 - Regular visitor - spends about the same amount of time on the site pretty consistently - maybe spends more time if there's a lot of mod releases, they're having a big discussion in D&D - whatever
3 - Gets patronised - finds more areas of the board (Curia etc). Generally people who have just been patronised post more soon after getting it. They want to be seen with the badge, show their thanks...for whatever reason, people post and do a lot more on the site straight after being patronised. This is also shown by the keeness for people to get their badge sorted as soon as they pass a CdeC vote and hear about it!
4 - They've posted here more than they would of without being patronised and have more of what's called an "affinity" for the site. You would need to have some affinity to post here in the first place - as affinity increases, the likelihood of you re-appearing to contribute more or read content/download mods etc, is increased. The affinity of some citizens with TWC is so high, they've described the place as "TWC crack" (search the term out - it's a concept mentioned and speculated on many a time).

Saying all this doesn't really matter though - I think the vote is just going to fail by a whisker. Same old same old I guess!

[imb39]

I should get several gold medals then

[Omnipotent-Q]

I understand the concerns regarding an influx of below par applications; I think that we will need to trust the CdeC on that. The notion that the CdeC can be pressurized is a realistic concern but not confined to the specific case. I also do not see why a process such as patronization does not merit an award. No one can deny that patronization contributes to the site, no one can deny that a successful patronization is hard work both in selecting and in presenting a candidate n the appropriate manner.

I support this bill.

P.S. I would like to see the other half of this Bill. By other half, I mean the incentives for Curial participation. That will require a "new deal" for the Curia as a concept; what this "new deal" maybe I cannot fathom and whenever I dabbled in this I failed unceremoniously. However debates as the one between the present Curator and GotR in this thread give me hope.

Garb - did I mention you're an absolute legend?

Incentive for taking part in Curial discussion is something I've dabbled with when brain storming on ideas. I've considered the possibility of proposing a re-defining of either the Curatorial Service or CdeC medals to incorporate giving them out to those always involved in discussions - always bringing new ideas to the table. Any measures that could be implemented on increasing discussion are in most cases going to involve increasing the number of Citizen's. I do agree that this idea could solve the former to an extent (this together with a pinned thread on members who might be worth considering for citizenship by all those in the Curia), but not necessarily the latter and more thought needs to go into that. I will probably move this to vote and setup a new new thread on ideas to increase Curial discussion, but first I shall ponder some ideas on increasing Curial discussion in my head - if anyone reading this has some ideas on this, then pose them!

I should get several gold medals then

haha...I took out the retroactive bit!

So the format is in a top secret language/code? I doubt it.

You're talking to a group of people that is composed mainly coders/scripters, so if we can't understand the format, these numbers be in Alien-esque.

Oh Thor what are you talking about....It's simple really - data needs to be turned into information and has to be fairly relative and completely unquestionable. I can't wave a fairy wand and make it all appear out of thin air. Needless to say I know what information such data will show as I've made clear succinct arguments for my point of view in the not so distant past where previous owners were thinking about doing way with the Curia.

Needless to say also, I can code in a fair few coding languages to a respectable level - it doesn't mean I go around speaking to those with a similar skill set in PERL or C just to cut out people from the discussion who cannot do so. "Most modders understand numbers - therefore all the people in the Curia are modders - therefore they'll understand random numbers you throw at them...." - it's nonsense logic man.

Um...not necessarily. Just because two facts Correlate, does not mean they Relate.

The reason it seems as though 'Citizens stay around more' is because Citizenship is handed out to those who contribute! If you spend the time to Contribute, you most likely enjoy this place, and therefore will be hanging around. It is the person's interest in TWC and not the Badge itself that causes members to stick around.

It's not the only factor and I've never said that more than once. Take this example: I'm a modder. I mod in warscape - I produce great product. It is in the bones of any modder that you want you're work out there. It is easier to do so when you're an Artifex - you've been through the process, you know a few people that could help you in such regards, and you're easier to spot than say.....posting up your modding work on the Org. Is this a competitive advantage TWC has on top of the fact there's more people here over the Org? Of course. Together with everything else here, if good modders can have a bigger voice in matters to do with modding interests on the site in the Curia, then that's a good thing? Are all modders who could have something good to bring up in more focused discussion in the Curia or give out a "eureka" moment no one thought of. Yeah you're right though - it is subjectively from member to member their decision to come post and contribute here. Yet for some reason, and I don't understand your logic - you're suggesting if we don't reward them for this, and we don't encourage rewarding of good people more often, it won't be a factor whatsoever in all cases that they won't consider this, and their citizen perks a factor in continuing to come here, when no such perks exist on competing websites or in fact most forums (the latter being more related to Civitates).

When throwing around the word 'Reality' please keep in mind we are discussing internet forum badges.

Right.

You keep insisting that simply flooding the Curia with Citizens will somehow save things. No, the system of the Curia needs to be modernized in order for the Curia to be revitalized.

Modernised for what? Has forum software taken such a massive leap, that we are forgetting the olde' reality that citizenship can be used as a factor to help encourage contributions and posting here? It's the single most important role the Curia in reality can play in being useful on the site. It has been for a long time, it's no longer doing it effectively, and so it needs to change. I'm some what bemused by those who don't see that. Voting on someone being a Citizen should never be solely about what contributions someone has made. It should always always always be about whether the applicant being a citizen would be of benefit to the community at large, and the Curia itself.

People who found or write for RPGs get Patronized and pass on a regular basis. People who simply play RPGs do not. Why? Because simply playing games is not, in and of itself, a real contribution.

I'd argue it is if you're playing RPG's all the time and loading adverts on a consistent basis - it helps keep wheels of the site moving. Why not encourage this behaviour nay? What do you think the RPG's are for? For sure to make the site more enjoyable for those who visit - that's going to be your answer to that question. But why make the site more enjoyable? Is it because it's good to have these people continually visiting so they've got new content in their face, and mods to download? Is it good because you're having people visit pages with adverts that pay for the running of the site? Therefore is it good to put another factor in their mind for continuing to do this here, as opposed to some other site you can do RPG's on? Of course it is - you want them playing here, because if they're not, then what's the chance such users are part of the audience available to the site in pushing mods, pushing content, pushing news. Is this not obvious? Don't say it's an assumption either because it's all outright fact. The Curia would be best to support such endeavours, not hang around discussing stuff that effects such people without any input from them.

If this happens as regularly as you believe - it should be easy on your part to give me ten examples of people involved predominately with the RPG's that have ever been patronised nem con?

If the Curia being composed of TWC's most active and contributive members is elitist...then long live the elites.

You honestly think the Curia is composed of TWC's most active and contributive members? You're having a laugh surely? Oh for sure, there's plenty of people with the gib of the gab in the Curia but I for one refuse to think we've got all the good people who can add to discussions in here who know what they're talking about. So nuts to pointless elitism. Elitism would kill the Curia - I've never known it to be so exclusive so elitist as it is now to the point good people don't even get to the door. How many posts did I have when I became a citizen? 120ish I believe. If I came forward today with an application, would I pass CdeC? I absolutely would not - no question. But does that mean I've not got anything useful in terms of contributions that can be made in here when talking about site matters? Does it mean I'm a member not worthy of trying to keep here? Yes all the good things going on in the forum is the key aspect, but we should stack more in favour of visiting here as much as possible.

Look at the 40 or so active voters, the at most 15ish members who take part in discussions in the Curia at the moment. Ask yourself this question:
Why can't we do better?

[Thoragoros]

Oh Thor what are you talking about....It's simple really - data needs to be turned into information and has to be fairly relative and completely unquestionable. I can't wave a fairy wand and make it all appear out of thin air. Needless to say I know what information such data will show as I've made clear succinct arguments for my point of view in the not so distant past where previous owners were thinking about doing way with the Curia.

Mr. Curator, if you believe you need a fairy wand to give us the data behind the claims you are making...perhaps it is time you took a breather from the office?

Take this example: I'm a modder. I mod in warscape - I produce great product. It is in the bones of any modder that you want you're work out there. It is easier to do so when you're an Artifex - you've been through the process, you know a few people that could help you in such regards, and you're easier to spot than say.....posting up your modding work on the Org.

This just isn't true. An Artifex has no more access to getting their work out then does an average member. The only thing an Artifex has in terms of access that an average member does not is access to the Curia, which has nothing to do with promoting a mod.

This isn't the Nexus where the badge 'Premium Member' actually carries real benefits. Then again, on the Nexus you have to pay for Premium Status, so of course you ger real benefits.

Modernised for what? Has forum software taken such a massive leap, that we are forgetting the olde' reality that citizenship can be used as a factor to help encourage contributions and posting here? It's the single most important role the Curia in reality can play in being useful on the site. It has been for a long time, it's no longer doing it effectively, and so it needs to change. I'm some what bemused by those who don't see that. Voting on someone being a Citizen should never be solely about what contributions someone has made. It should always always always be about whether the applicant being a citizen would be of benefit to the community at large, and the Curia itself.

The current Curial process is based around our 'liberation/revolution' from ON, when spirits and participation were at their high in the Curia. We don't have that kind of participation in the Curia anymore. Therefore, this system is badly outdated.

You honestly think the Curia is composed of TWC's most active and contributive members? You're having a laugh surely?

If you don't, you have a lot of brushing up to do on who is who around here.

To name a few of the people involved here, Hader, Lord Rahl, Legio, Ishan, Megas Tortas, Thoragoros , Eol, Okmin, Leonidas the Lion, Jom, pre-hex Belisarius, Brigadier Grahm, Empress Meg, etc..

I rest my case.

[Omnipotent-Q]

Mr. Curator, if you believe you need a fairy wand to give us the data behind the claims you are making...perhaps it is time you took a breather from the office?

That's just the thing - to anyone with an objective mind or know's what they're talking about, what I'm saying is unquestionable. I have collated data on this before, and it will take me to go through every single Citizen and compare with snapshot of the membership a good 16 hours (give or take) so forgive me if I choose not to do so because quite frankly I'll prove it, and they'll be some other reason you'll oppose on. The simple truth is your opinion of the Curia is wholly elitist and exclusive to the point the whole thing is useless, while mines totally populist, constructive, and forward moving.

This just isn't true. An Artifex has no more access to getting their work out then does an average member. The only thing an Artifex has in terms of access that an average member does not is access to the Curia, which has nothing to do with promoting a mod.

Where did I mention access in my last post?

This isn't the Nexus where the badge 'Premium Member' actually carries real benefits. Then again, on the Nexus you have to pay for Premium Status, so of course you ger real benefits.

Didn't you oppose giving out some user titles to members because it was something that should be kept to citizen's? Is that not a benefit of being a Citizen all of a sudden because it suits you?

The current Curial process is based around our 'liberation/revolution' from ON, when spirits and participation were at their high in the Curia. We don't have that kind of participation in the Curia anymore. Therefore, this system is badly outdated.

The Curia was never big on massive major discussion - most innovation that has and will matter comes out of Hexagon so let's not beat around the bush. The Curia has always been there to advise from the perspective of core groups of visitors who visit the site - this is focused feedback that doesn't grow on tree's. The Curia was here before ON's involvement in the site years ago - it has always been more useful in keeping members interested in what's going on around the site and giving them a badge to show they're always welcome here. You think when they owned the site they had the mindset of "Oh let's keep the Curia...it's all about liberation and revolution in there and making our jobs harder". No they didn't - they had the mindset of "this is useful in various ways in getting focused feedback on site operations where you cannot do so all the time in Q&A, and useful in helping to keep groups of good posters coming back for more" - TWC crack as it's popular known.

You honestly think the Curia is composed of TWC's most active and contributive members? You're having a laugh surely?

If you don't, you have a lot of brushing up to do on who is who around here.

To name a few of the people involved here, Hader, Lord Rahl, Legio, Ishan, Megas Tortas, Thoragoros , Eol, Okmin, Leonidas the Lion, Jom, pre-hex Belisarius, Brigadier Grahm, Empress Meg, etc..

I rest my case.

Seriously that's your case? Your list consists of the "most active and contributive members" of the forum? Come on....you must be arguing this point for some lols surely? I mean the colour's look good in your list but let's have a look at how exclusive it is shall we?

Hader isn't a fan of the Curia - but arguably contributes a hell of a lot - probably why he's first. LR has been here for years and has been a Citizen for years (maybe it's a factor in why he has always kept visiting? the friends he's made through the site - some undoubtedly in the Curia). 4 Moderators - yep brilliant spot. Meg I'd argue is semi-active.

Basically yeah you've got sterling contributors on your list - some of the people I respect the most are on it in fact. But if you think the list above consists of the entire list of people who contribute in some way to the site, then yeah, I suppose you have rested your "case". I will make my case with a similar list.....I will give you 50 members that most likely should be citizen's. We'll see how inclusive your list is then! Shall post it up in a few hours - heh some of you could make a steal on them before I get to patronise them! Or perhaps I should cut out the middle man and try patronising 50 immediately? More comedic that would be I imagine haha!

[Thoragoros]

That's just the thing - to anyone with an objective mind or know's what they're talking about, what I'm saying is unquestionable. I have collated data on this before, and it will take me to go through every single Citizen and compare with snapshot of the membership a good 16 hours (give or take) so forgive me if I choose not to do so because quite frankly I'll prove it, and they'll be some other reason you'll oppose on. The simple truth is your opinion of the Curia is wholly elitist and exclusive to the point the whole thing is useless, while mines totally populist, constructive, and forward moving.

You claim to have numbers, let's see them. If you need a 'fairy wand,' go get one.

Where did I mention access in my last post?

You said it was easier to get one's mod out with an Artifex badge. I'm telling you from experience that isn't true, as the only thing an Artifex has that a normal member doesn't is access to the Curia...which counts for nothing towards building one's mod.

Didn't you oppose giving out some user titles to members because it was something that should be kept to citizen's? Is that not a benefit of being a Citizen all of a sudden because it suits you?

What on earth does user titles have to do with this?

Seriously that's your case? Your list consists of the "most active and contributive members" of the forum? Come on....you must be arguing this point for some lols surely? I mean the colour's look good in your list but let's have a look at how exclusive it is shall we?

As many of the posters in the Curia represent not only TWC's most contributive core of users, but also a large chunk of our 'living history,' yes, that is my case.

Hader isn't a fan of the Curia - but arguably contributes a hell of a lot - probably why he's first. LR has been here for years and has been a Citizen for years (maybe it's a factor in why he has always kept visiting? the friends he's made through the site - some undoubtedly in the Curia). 4 Moderators - yep brilliant spot. Meg I'd argue is semi-active.

Hader is a well repsected member, and whether he likes the Curia or not is irrelevant as he was a regular here. Leonidas the Lion maybe a Moderator, but is still the SPQR guy. That astounding RTW mod counts for a lot, at least in my mind.

Basically yeah you've got sterling contributors on your list - some of the people I respect the most are on it in fact. But if you think the list above consists of the entire list of people who contribute in some way to the site, then yeah, I suppose you have rested your "case".

I never said or implied the Curia's list of posters accounts for the width and breadth of TWC's contributors, but to deny that we've got a 'sterling' list is frankly an insult to the people who frequent this particular board of the forum. To imply that somehow we are lacking in contributors, or that we are badly in need of a creative boost simply isn't true. We are in need of reform.

Nevertheless, Patronizations will wax and wane as they always do, and the next generation of Citizens is already well on its way to taking up the reins of the site. This idea of a Citizen crisis is ill-conceived at best, and frankly detrimental at worst.

['Gunny]

The best way to increase Curial participation is for Garb to declare himself Imperator and start threatening to abolish the Curia.

That said, there is no real reason to not have an incentive (other than friendships that will last a lifetime*) to patronize
*Until the patron or the patronee gets bored of the site

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

The best way to increase Curial participation is for Garb to declare himself Imperator and start threatening to abolish the Curia.

That said, there is no real reason to not have an incentive (other than friendships that will last a lifetime*) to patronize
*Until the patron or the patronee gets bored of the site

Support Bunker's Bunk.
Bunker's Bunk

Archie Bunker on Democrats
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fqCS...eature=related
~
Math - Bunker style
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da0ea...eature=related
{if the link doesn't connect try back in a bit, you-tube video connections can be spotty}

"All in th family/ Archi Bunker's Place" was a political satire comedy from the early 1970's on CBS. {USA}Please check it out for yourself if not familiar with it.

~~

Bronze

Finding citizenship applicants does take time and effort. Some candidates don't even consider the contribution possibilities {citizenship-wise}until that fateful day when the would be Patron happens along. If a even a minute incentive such as this raises the possibility of a resonant voice in the curia, then that merits exploration at the least.

"Fortune favors the Bold."


Now having said that I think the Bronze on would help balance out my Bling...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Bolkonsky]

If you want to drum up more activity here, the idea isn't to take away something from those who don't participate, but rather give something to those who do.

So the format is in a top secret language/code? I doubt it.
You're talking to a group of people that is composed mainly coders/scripters, so if we can't understand the format, these numbers be in Alien-esque.

Here's a number:

9722333

Doesn't mean anything without it's algorithm, though.