my confusion with the Arab Caliphate

[Toho]

so this arab dude and I got into this big debate of how the Muslims were at the time.

he said that whatever the Arabs built were actually of their own culture and design while I insisted that all that technology or scientists they had were actually descendent's of previous residents of Persian and Romans. I told him just because they wrote in Arabic doesn't mean they were arab, because of the whole conquerers imposing their own language as the state language.

he told me no because the Arabs conquered them they were Arab but I told just because Genghis Khan conquered half the world does that mean those people became Mongolian?

anyways can someone shed some light on this? was the architecture, sciences, arts and etc really of Arab's work or were they the work of the people they subjugated?

[naq]

I don't think the Arabs really invented much. They used Persian architecture and music. Their science come from Greek and Indian sources. Fine art did not develop much due to Muslim forbidden.

Well they did invent Islam which contributed a bit for religious.

[wudang_clown]

anyways can someone shed some light on this? was the architecture, sciences, arts and etc really of Arab's work or were they the work of the people they subjugated?

That depends on what you consider as "their work". I think there is not a single piece of art on Earth which would be 100% genuine, the first one, based on a pure idea transferred into physical shape, and all are marked with influences. Influences concern all peoples works, I guess, as people just use others ideas, modifying them that way or another.

But to say Arabs haven't contributed to any area of arts is a nonsense. Most obvious example of Arab invention is Arabic calligraphy, which is an art itself.

[matmohair1]

culture, art, science and civilization - belong to all human beings regardless of nation, faith or creed

all I see are human beings - (or should we say, Earthlings ?! LOL)

[naq]

It bases on the way you see things.
But if you mean did the wonders the Arabs have at that time was actually invented by them, I can say not many of them.

[Iguanaonastick]

After a few centuries of the Caliphate's rule I wouldn't say it makes a great deal of sense to distinguish between "Arab" and "Persian."

[Ibn Al-Quds]

Arabs did make a remarkable advancement in Arts, Culture and Sciences, In fact Arabic Medicine is one of the things that Arabs were well known for it, Especially Ophthalmology.

Europe's Medicine rised in the Renaissance era and it was derived from Arabic Medicine, But the thing is all different races and civilizations around Arabia were united by the bond of Islam, which helped into introducing the Islamic Golden Age, which made a cultural-artistic-scientific BOOM, but the Muslim Arabs did have a major role by inventing, developing and bringing freedom to the tyrannized Persian, Indian, African ... etc.

All that was when people really followed the teachings of Islam, unlike now.

And there is nothing as Arabic Caliphate, it's The Islamic Caliphate.

You can Google and find a big list of Arabic Scholars and their contributions to humanity.

[matmohair1]

this is a helpful link : http://www.1001inventions.com/

they were not alone, china invented gunpowder, the Indians invented chess, dice and trade mark logos
and that's how civilizations flower when cultures merge together side by side.

all cultures helped in advancing each other - please don't mix faith with nationalistic racism

Islamic nations did accept the advances of other civilizations while adding more to them & they were not alone

Andalusian arms and armor - 13th to 15th centuries :( and yes they did adopt European sallets, sugarloaf & great-helms )

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

ancient Indian artifacts - as you can see there are a lot of accomplishments to build upon

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

metallic sword rockets of sultan Tipu - (yes they were more advanced the the British colonialists in this one)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[naq]

Well I thought Toho was talking about Arabs, not Muslim.

they were not alone, china invented gunpowder, the Indians invented chess, dice and trade mark logos

The Indians also invented Algebra and Arabic numerals (or more precisely, Indian numerals).

[matmohair1]

that's what I meant, we all are humans and we all are connected

[Dago Red]

As Ibn Al-Quds points out above, Europe's medical knowledge was on the rise after contact with the Muslim world, whether these advances were "Arab" or a broader pan-arab regional/Persian/far eastern group of knowledge can be debated. But certainly "Arab" peoples in particular contributed a great deal.

Europe was brought back out of the Dark Age after the First Crusade. Much of this was due to the knowledge and ideas, inventions, techniques, etc brought back to the West from contact with the "east."
The Arabs then were a civilized people in every way as compared to the Europeans who did not even bathe. Among the countless sciences and technologies known to the Muslim world, The Fatimids for example were communicating in the field with pigeons... sending word on the wind to different cities and castles. The Crusaders had no concept of this and were completely out maneuvered once faced with an organized foe that could muster to meet them. Knowledge is half the battle.

And aren't Egyptians, Arab? Today at least, they are something like 90% Arab. I don't think anyone would say they didn't contribute much that was original to human knowledge and arts and sciences.



Of course the irony is that much of this was known in the West before the dark ages, in Roman times, and only preserved (and evolving too) in the Middle East. The greatest gift to Europe wasn't the reclamation of Jerusalem, it was the reclamation of knowledge. Of civilization over chaos.
And around and around it goes!

that's what I meant, we all are humans and we all are connected

Exactly.

[Robert Guiscard]

And aren't Egyptians, Arab? Today at least, they are something like 90% Arab. I don't think anyone would say they didn't contribute much that was original to human knowledge and arts and sciences.

Are you saying that before the Arabic conquests Egyptians were Arabs? I don't believe that was the case. Before the Arab conquests Arabs did not exist in Egypt, they were primarily Coptic (for lack of a better description)
As for Arabic contributions, I believe it would have a pan-Middle East/Central Asian/Islamic contribution, including the native population and the Arab conquerors. I don't believe Arabs consisted a major part of the population in the Islamic world for a number of years after the conquests

[hypo]

The Arab contribution was primarily to maintain and innovate upon the knowledge of the ancient world after the fall of the Roman Empire. If it were not for the contributions of Arab civilizations, almost all of the knowledge would have been lost (think medieval europe, dark ages) and the renaissance may not have happened. You can think of it like they held and ran with the relay torch of human progress after the Roman's imploded, if it wasn't for them all civilization west of China would have been set back by hundreds or thousands of years.

The modern fields of chemistry, algebra, astronomy, and medicine were invented by Arabs. Its also inaccurate to think of innovation as insignificant compared to invention. The whole idea of academic knowledge is that it builds upon ideas that others have already discovered.

I personally think its kind of inaccurate to attribute these scientific advances to civilizations or people's anyway back then. What you basically had were a few self-taught geniuses like Aristotle or Euclid who are responsible for most of the "achievements" of their entire civilization. The contribution of the state was mostly to provide an environment void of war or famine (a worthy achievement for sure, but still a relatively minor role). Nobel Laureates in modern times are much more a product of their institutions (such as universities, government bodies, and professional associations).

[David93]

The Arab contribution was primarily to maintain and innovate upon the knowledge of the ancient world after the fall of the Roman Empire. If it were not for the contributions of Arab civilizations, almost all of the knowledge would have been lost (think medieval europe, dark ages) and the renaissance may not have happened. You can think of it like they held and ran with the relay torch of human progress after the Roman's imploded, if it wasn't for them all civilization west of China would have been set back by hundreds or thousands of years.

The modern fields of chemistry, algebra, astronomy, and medicine were invented by Arabs. Its also inaccurate to think of innovation as insignificant compared to invention. The whole idea of academic knowledge is that it builds upon ideas that others have already discovered.

I personally think its kind of inaccurate to attribute these scientific advances to civilizations or people's anyway back then. What you basically had were a few self-taught geniuses like Aristotle or Euclid who are responsible for most of the "achievements" of their entire civilization. The contribution of the state was mostly to provide an environment void of war or famine (a worthy achievement for sure, but still a relatively minor role). Nobel Laureates in modern times are much more a product of their institutions (such as universities, government bodies, and professional associations).

Actually in ancient rome you were guaranteed more water per person than you are today (in britian at least) you also left out the romans themselves (only part of the empire imploded, as im sure we all know) the fourth crusade and the sack of Constantinople brought back loads of knowledge to the west.

[wudang_clown]

Are you saying that before the Arabic conquests Egyptians were Arabs? I don't believe that was the case. Before the Arab conquests Arabs did not exist in Egypt, they were primarily Coptic (for lack of a better description)

I think "Copt" means exactly the same as "Egyptian", only etymology is different.

As for Arabic contributions, I believe it would have a pan-Middle East/Central Asian/Islamic contribution, including the native population and the Arab conquerors. I don't believe Arabs consisted a major part of the population in the Islamic world for a number of years after the conquests

But majority has nothing to do with influence in different areas of human life. You can say the same about Greeks or Romans.



I'm thinking, assuming that Arabs contributed in absolutely no way to what is now our heritage is weird, because to assume that is to assume that medieval Arabs were kind of brainless people who had absolutely no means to express higher ideas. There is no such ethnic group on this planet that has absolutely no genuine ideas, no matter: simple narratives or a way of weaving cane baskets. People who are unable to think autonomously are considered clinical cases with intellectual deficit. On the contrary, Arabs created Islam and conquered vast area, establishing successful administrative machine over culturally diverse groups - something that even biggest group of idiots would be unable to achieve.

Let's just think about simplest of things, apart those mentioned above - language, literature, calligraphy, music. There is no need to reach for more complex examples.

Finally:

Its also inaccurate to think of innovation as insignificant compared to invention. The whole idea of academic knowledge is that it builds upon ideas that others have already discovered.

[matmohair1]

Al Jazari - the father of robotics and mechanical clocks : http://www.alshindagah.com/marapr2005/jaziri.html

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Ibn Al-Quds]

I think relating to this thread's topic, Egyptians are Arabic, because most of the scientific advancements started from the Rashidun Caliphate, which was then conquered and inhabited by Arabs.

[sumskilz]

was the architecture, sciences, arts and etc really of Arab's work or were they the work of the people they subjugated?

Both. Medieval Islamic culture synthesized and built upon the cultural achievements of the people that were incorporated into the Caliphate. Their achievements would not have been possible without the technologies they had inherited but that does not mean that they did not innovate in their own right. The question is, who do you define as being Arab? For example when Egypt was conquered by the Arabs it had perhaps 3 million people. Only a few thousand Arabs settled there initially, yet today most Egyptians are Arabs. The reason being that when people converted to Islam and started speaking Arabic as their native language, they began thinking of themselves as Arabs and intermarrying with other Arabs.

[trollface]

arabs want people to believe islamic nations outside of arabia are ''arabic'', this is mostly propaganda and untrue. The arabs conquered advanced civilsations but whether they actually added much to it is debatable. Like the mongols they united a large part of the world, allowing knowledge and trade to flow. However like the mongols I don't think they contributed a great deal to the sciences. They were a conduit for knowledge not an actual conduit of knowledge.

>All that was when people really followed the teachings of Islam, unlike now.

what does that mean? Muslims have always been unkind to people of other faiths if they could get away with it... usually via religous taxation and slavery. In fact islamic law is, in typical judaic fashion, filled with contradictions. Do this no do that instead

here is a youtube vid about they myth of islamic civilisation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAMbugJjWCo

[wudang_clown]

here is a youtube vid about they myth of islamic civilisation

Wisdom for lazy people, feeding their prejudices.

That "lecture" is actually applicable to many conquerors, you silly billy, including predecessors of modern leading European nations. That's very interesting thesis, that initially illiterate group can never ever be an active part of what is called civilization. That's like saying that one can never ever be a fine human being, contributing to this world, because when he comes to this world he is illiterate. I wonder who directed all those geniuses, then? Probably Jews. Or Aliens.

the arab language only flourished because it was the only language that was accepted by islam, if this was not the case then Arabic language would have never spread like it did.

This is hardly an argument in discussion. How do you think, why English is so popular nowadays? Because Englishmen were plying the world with peaceful language-advertising campaign? Is imposition of a language on other ethnic groups a reason to deny any cultural influence made by its native speakers?

most of Egypt and Mesopotamia has been Arabized and have close to NOTHING of the culture that they had pre-islam, i mean Iraq belonged to Persia so there were a lot of Zoroastrians there.

That's not an argument, either, because Persians were initially nomads. And what Zoroastrianism has to do with assessment of civilization level? Is worshiping fire more advanced than worshiping one god?

I guess the main problem these days is that you got heavy arab or Islamic propaganda that says all these arts and sciences happened because of Arabs and Islam while the cause and the people who ultimately did them had hardly anything to do with Islam or the Arab nomads. i think the Persian Gulf is referred to as the Arabian Gulf in Arab schools right?

I think you are wrong. Certainly, there are groups that claims Arabs are creators of civilization, but such groups are active in every distinctive cultural circle. What is wrong is to see in those controversial claims a general voice of that or another ethnic group.