Good way to get a clan to dow me?

[Alatar1313]

Okay, so I'm playing Shimazu and this is my first real game in TWS2 (though I have played all the other TWs since rome). Playing on Hard. I grabbed Osumi first turn as usual, ran down their army, then figured I'd try to see if I could go take out their other province since I totally destroyed their army. Took Hyuga and eliminated them turn 3. Noticed that Bunga's castle city was undefended so grabbed it with 1 general unit turn 4. Built a trade ship out of there and noticed on my way through that Buzen had been taken by Rebels. Sat for two turns building up and took Buzen turn 7. While doing this I took all the trade nodes and opened trade agreements (at cost since I had a -15 expansion penalty).

So I've been sitting back building my economy, army, and navy and am at turn 18. I've been using my ninjas to harass Shoni but I'm not getting a diplomacy penalty with them. I have a trade agreement with them and my expansion penalty is steadily decreasing. I don't want to get a diplomatic penalty with the whole rest of Japan just to take their stuff but it's getting annoying.

1. How do I get them to attack me without losing diplomacy with everyone else? In one of my trial games ninja stuff worked just fine to get the Shoni to hate me and declare war but sabotaging buildings every turn doesn't seem to be doing it for me. Does assassination work better? Will it hurt my relations with just the clan I'm assassinating or everyone?

2. More generally, what are the negative effects of declaring war myself (assuming I don't have current agreements with a clan) compared with getting them to declare on me or jumping in with an ally?

[MikkOwl]

1. Not that you need to, since there are no penalties for declaring war, but "Sabotage attempt" I think can give max -20. "Hostile agent actions" (murder attempts) -50. Combine both if you want to piss someone off. It only affects the relations between the two of you, not anyone else. You can also marry with a clan they are hostile with, break your trade agreement with them, pay someone else to trade embargo them (they find out it was you), ally with a clan hostile to them, have a different religion than theirs, and tempt them with your undefended neighboring provinces. It helps to be weak militarily, hated by everyone else and of course, not having any military alliances.

2. You just attack. There is no penalty for declaring war on another clan you have no military agreements with if they are not in an alliance with a third party. If they are very friendly with someone else, that person might slightly dislike you for "War with a friendly clan" or something like that.

If you attack someone you have a vassal agreement, or military access, or military alliance, you will get be considered treacherous by everyone else. There's also a mechanic where, even if you cancel these agreements before declaring war, you have to wait a set amount of turns for it be considered not to be backstabby. The wait time is longer the longer you have had the military agreement in place. In an own example, I had a kind of long military access deal with someone. I had to wait 3½ years after cancelling it to be able to declare war without a nasty global penalty. The time is probably shorter the shorter the deal lasted to begin with.

[shadowjin]

To get a clan to declare war on you first, you can simply get as much negative rating with them as well and agents are excellent for this.

Failed assassinations give -50 to diplomatic relations instead of -20 for sabotage. Monks/priests can fail their demoralize attempts or revolt attempts. Metsuke can fail their bribes although this is very costly.

You can also do other things like making a trade agreement and then immediately breaking it.

If you are impatient and simply want to declare war, you will suffer no diplomatic penalties if the offending clan has no allies/trade partners. Otherwise, you will lost relations with those clans as well. If you have cash, you can try forcing them to break their alliances/trade agreements before declaring war.

[MikkOwl]

Monks/priests can fail their demoralize attempts or revolt attempts. Metsuke can fail their bribes although this is very costly.

I don't think there's any penalty for failing monk actions (which is psycho since they are doing very hostile things). Metsukes can for sure fail their bribe attempts, but since attempting to bribe requires declaring war on them before trying it is not a good way to provoke them to declare war

[Alatar1313]

I don't think there's any penalty for failing monk actions (which is psycho since they are doing very hostile things). Metsukes can for sure fail their bribe attempts, but since attempting to bribe requires declaring war on them before trying it is not a good way to provoke them to declare war

Failed attempt to demoralize army gave -20 sabotage attempts penalty! Even reloaded to verify that's what caused it.

[Alatar1313]

Hmm I guess one problem is that I haven't failed any of the sabotage attempts whereas last time I was failing them all the time. I thought I was lucky...haha.

Okay so breaking trade agreements doesn't give a global penalty? I only have a trade agreement right now so I can just break it and charge in...and stick their army out of town with my ninja. Their only friend is about to get owned across the water.

For some reason I thought there was some penalty to attacking people myself instead of letting them attack me. I keep seeing in all the guides to not attack anyone ever. lol

[MikkOwl]

Hmm I guess one problem is that I haven't failed any of the sabotage attempts whereas last time I was failing them all the time. I thought I was lucky...haha.

Okay so breaking trade agreements doesn't give a global penalty? I only have a trade agreement right now so I can just break it and charge in...and stick their army out of town with my ninja. Their only friend is about to get owned across the water.

For some reason I thought there was some penalty to attacking people myself instead of letting them attack me. I keep seeing in all the guides to not attack anyone ever. lol

Yeah, you have to get caught in the act. Heh heh.

Think of the agreements a bit like taking them literally; there's no clause in the trade or alliance agreement that says you have to do it for this and that many turns. Cancelling them gives no global penalty, but the relations between your two clans will get . No one likes having a perfectly good desired deal rejected. The danger is in attacking someone you have an alliance/military access thing with, even a while after having cancelled the agreement in question. They see it like you go back on your word. Attacking someone you had military access to is especially hated by everyone, giving the "Backstabber!" penalty.

Failed attempt to demoralize army gave -20 sabotage attempts penalty! Even reloaded to verify that's what caused it.

Really, now that is fantastic! I thought it didn't, and was annoyed at the seeming ability to just use monks all over the place without any consequences to diplomacy. Thanks for pointing it out.

[Alatar1313]

Now, if I annoy the clan I have a military alliance/access with enough that they declare war, is there still no penalty? I'm allied with Sagara which is right up in the middle of my stuff. I keep having to stack units around there to make sure they don't decide it's a good time to strike while my units are away. I'd prefer to be prepared for it.

[Pinky333]

Why not just spam threats of attacks? You can get like -500 and theyll attack you the next turn :|

[Alatar1313]

Oh huh. Didn't realize you could just spam threaten. lol

[shadowjin]

I'm pretty sure threatening any clan results in a permanent -1 to your daimyo's honor for "empty threats".

[Alatar1313]

I'm pretty sure threatening any clan results in a permanent -1 to your daimyo's honor for "empty threats".

I just threatened a clan 10 times and ended my turn. No penalty.

[Saudade of Sunday]

I just threatened a clan 10 times and ended my turn. No penalty.

Yeah man, but you have to keep your promise within 3 or 4 turns, otherwise your daimyo'll lose honour.

Anyway when I want to go to war with someone, I just DoW them. If I have agreements with them or they have too many allies, I
generally DoW on the weakest of their allies so the former are carried into war as well (tactic exceptionally good with Takeda...).
I use this escamotage to troll other clans as well, for example Hojo were at war with me (they DoWed me) and were nearly
defeated with just one castle under siege. I signed peace in exchange for 14k koku, then DoWed one of their allies, sieged
their city again and killed them. No diplomatic side effects (except war with the ally, of course, which you should choose carefully).