Why count units?

[Haru]

Majority of the time when I watch commentaries, the commentators will speak about "counting units". Now then, can someone explain to me how you can "count" the enemies force in order to tell how many troops they are hiding? How is this even 100% possible when many units have vetted ranks but no points spent into upgrades and so on? The only way I could see someone to telling completely would be in an Ultra funds battle and you don't see 20 units on the field, but even then...

[=HighXplosive=]

Counting is a load of bollocks. Best you can do is make an intelligent guess. The most important thing is to look at the number of units relative to the experience of the units, relative to the army strength bar.

Low quality units in low numbers means more hidden units.

[react.Bishop]

You just assume that they spent the skill points since most people do. It's not about knowing exactly how many units the other person has, just general numbers so they can't spring 5 cav units on you after you committed your spears.

Anyways, I just generally do a quick count and assume all vet points are spent, then I subtract 5% from trading post, and another 10% from orator if he's running a lot of ashigaru. That gives me 3 numbers, and a rough estimate on what he could potentially have hidden. It's been useful so far since the most important things that enemies will hide are arty, cav, and maybe some reserve matchlocks and it's pretty easy to figure out something's fishy if they potentially have an extra 3-4k funds not being used, especially if you check to see their leftover funds during setup.

Oh it's also good to take a count of total troops then check out the relative strength bar since that's showing comparison between unit numbers. If he has significantly less troop numbers then what he should have, then he's probably hiding something.

*edit* damn highxplosive typed faster lol.

[bushranger]

you dont count units,it's just after playing enough games you get a idea if a army looks to small.Its good to have a unit of light cav for scouting anyway,alot of the time you know some thing is missing and its pretty important to find out if its a couple of GG or a heap of katanas.

[Jetro]

you dont count units,it's just after playing enough games you get a idea if a army looks to small.Its good to have a unit of light cav for scouting anyway,alot of the time you know some thing is missing and its pretty important to find out if its a couple of GG or a heap of katanas.

Pretty much what he said. You know when an army has far less units than it should. If an army looks skimpy I'm placing bets on a hidden cav force. It's always a hidden cav force . Sometimes I wonder why they bother hiding them.

[bangell99]

It's easy to tell when an enemy clearly has some hidden units, but most of what commentators say is just self-righteous nonsense. Don't stick to every silly "tip" they give.

[Oda]

I (almost) always count units. It's important so you can estimate if a Mangongel could be waiting for you, or when he has hidden cav in the woods etc. You can even estimate how much cav he has hidden; Just a yari? Or 2 GG? Makes a huge difference to your strategy. But the main problem is, you can't just count up the costs cause you don't know if the vets are upgraded or not. So you just have to estimate. I do the following:

1. At first count up the amounts of units. If there are 13 units in a 14k battle, there is probably something fishy.
2. Second, count up the costs: Most people bring trade station and speaker, so you have to take that into account. For a lvl 5 unit add ~250, for a lvl 9 ~400.
3. If he brought the Shinobi informant on a large map, he probably has ninjas nearby. Scout for them. Scout anyway on a smaller map.

Knowing this, you should be able to develop your strategy.

[AlfonsoVIII]

I can tell by comparing general rank, units visible and upgrades and compare it to my army to come pretty close to what the enemy has and not surprised by any ambush. For me, its takes lots of battles and keep in memory all the costs and different builds to come to a conclusion on whether or not the enemy has hidden units or not.

[AggonyKing]

I never count per say, but I do take a quick glance at my opponents army and quickly do some math in my head to figure out if funds are missing. If you play with the "show unit stats" box on like me you will also see their upgrades which helps you further determine if they're being sneaky and hiding some units

so like i said, you don't have to count per say, just take a quick glance at least. Information is valuable

[Knowing Crow]

I usually make a quick gestimate, but if the battle reaches a standstill (such as we are both staring at each other), I'll break out my calculator and calculate how much each of my opponents units and if I find a significant missing value (like 2,000), I can guess that my opponent has units hiding in the forest. If it's something like 2,400, and I see no Great Guard, I can guess that it is probably 2 units of Great Guard reserve, and I am probably right. Hidden units are almost always cavalry, it doesn't happen often enough to merit assuming my opponent has anything else in reserve (like ninja-fodder, or archers, or something).

How I make these calculations are mostly just estimates. I know the cost of unvetted units, so those are easy, but if it's vetted then I make an estimate that includes a "min value" and a "max value". Basically, the min value is the cost of the units without veterency, and the max value is the cost of the units with veterency, +50 for each of the first 4 levels, I do not count any level after that as in most cases people don't actually level their vets that high. This can lead me to assuming my opponent has a large force in reserve when they in fact just have heavily vetted units, but I would rather be mistaken about a large reserve force than be mistaken about units being stronger than I previously assumed.

[dmcheatw]

you sorta have to rely on the idiocy of others. especially me because i am bad at math. 80% of the time u can "feel" it as others have mentioned. for that other 20% doing math on the fly is certainly helpful.

the biggest problem is a good player will hide only 1 cav unit (often cheap) which is virtually undetectable, and then he will spring it in a sophisticated fashion, usually with simultaneous fake attacks to distract the enemy player.

that sort of an ambush can devastate even really good players. it was very easy to do in ETW. in NTW it usually wasn't possible because there were no forests in dep zones. in this game it's possible but harder cause the stupid aid tells the player when u reveal yourself.

so the bottom line is with experience u can sense an ambush most every time, and for the time you can't precise math helps, but even then 5% of ambushes are really clever and if done well are virtually undetectable without proper scouting.

[react.Bishop]

Heh, don't forget that non-vet matchlock ashigaru only costs 340 with trading post + orator. It's surprising how often people lose track of 1k and then suddenly have 3 units of matchlocks coming out of the woods.

[Blee]

Or when you see a single GG in a 14k army...... Kinda giving something away there....

[Haru]

All very good tips, thanks for your thoughts.

[KittySN]

When you've played ~1,000 battles, it becomes quite easy to calculate values at a glance and know the usual locations of impending ambushes. Then the game becomes fun because you can counter-ambush or manipulate your opponent.

[hyzhenhok]

Counting is useful at lower ranks.

At higher ranks, who cares. 90% of the time he's hiding great guard. Oh, I really believe your entire army is 7 units of rank 9 warrior monk veterans, d00d.

I've gotten in the habit of hiding spears and swords and leaving my cav in the open, since most people seem to assume that if you're not hiding your cav, you're not hiding anything.

[Evan MF]

Counting is useful at lower ranks.

At higher ranks, who cares. 90% of the time he's hiding great guard. Oh, I really believe your entire army is 7 units of rank 9 warrior monk veterans, d00d.

I've gotten in the habit of hiding spears and swords and leaving my cav in the open, since most people seem to assume that if you're not hiding your cav, you're not hiding anything.

I do this too. I'll leave my GG Cav unhidden and put my Yari Cav in the trees - they don't suspect a thing (unless they count)

Evan

[Tr0tskY]

When you've played ~1,000 battles, it becomes quite easy to calculate values at a glance and know the usual locations of impending ambushes. Then the game becomes fun because you can counter-ambush or manipulate your opponent.

Even though I am nowhere near this figure (or your or any decent players' ability level) this is very true. 9 times out of 10 if your opponent is just sitting in his half of the map and he's doing weird stuff with his general such as running him towards your cavalry then running off in random directions, then chances are he has an ambush lying somewhere in the trees that are there to isolate and destroy your own cavalry. I am very inexperiences still at this game so even when I know what is going on my terrible micro usually lets me down

[AlfonsoVIII]

Yep, I rarely see any cav if the opponent has Great Guard, but if there melee and missile is significantly lacking, then I am smart enough to know an ambush is somewhere.