'Siege reinforcement' bug fixed after 64mb update?

[SonOfCrusader76]

I'm not too sure - but this is what happened:

I was under siege by two armies of the same faction - the battle opened with only one enemy army on the field, but it was a full stack. As the battle went on and the enemy army was depleted, the other army started to march up the hill. I am positive it was the second army because it was composed mainly of Samurai, whereas the first lot were mainly Ashigaru.

I'm not saying it's fixed for sure, but that's what happened.

[Don in the North]

what happened at a time was the second army would get in range of the walls then just sit there. did this happen to you or did you have the timer on?

[Humble Warrior]

I am still testing this. However, I`ve not had much time to officially confirm. All I can say is, i`ve not had the siege bug yet. But i`m saying nothing until I`m SURE.
If some one else can confirm this sooner than me, go ahead, please.

[SonOfCrusader76]

what happened at a time was the second army would get in range of the walls then just sit there. did this happen to you or did you have the timer on?

I'm not sure, because as the second smaller army were arriving, I sallied out to attack them, so they may or may not have stopped and waited at the walls. I always have the timer on 60 mins.

[andb52]

I have never had an attacking army get stuck at the walls (I suppose I have been lucky, given how often this bug comes up). Just yesterday, I defeated a full army attacking my fortress and a full second army reinforced and destroyed me without any apparent bugs.

[Marmaga]

I also had some battles with reinforcements coming normally and joining in so far, though the Siege BAI still does stupid things and only wins by pure numerical advantage, still largely ignoring the open gates of damaged forts, although it was one siege battle where my fort was damaged and out of 2 fullstacks only 1 unit of yari ashigaru walked in the open gate, everything else scaled the walls as usual.

[visser300]

I also had some battles with reinforcements coming normally and joining in so far, though the Siege BAI still does stupid things and only wins by pure numerical advantage, still largely ignoring the open gates of damaged forts, although it was one siege battle where my fort was damaged and out of 2 fullstacks only 1 unit of yari ashigaru walked in the open gate, everything else scaled the walls as usual.

Gates are nothing in this game. It's very stupid to pour your army through a gate. One time, the enemy pour their troops through my gate and my 4 stars general and two ashigaru hold them until the time is end. If they climb the wall, I will finish.

[Humble Warrior]

Gates are nothing in this game. It's very stupid to pour your army through a gate. One time, the enemy pour their troops through my gate and my 4 stars general and two ashigaru hold them until the time is end. If they climb the wall, I will finish.

This is gaming for gaming sake.

Now let`s spend a moment to think about this, if you can.

It should be historically accurate. If done well enough then it will work.

Q: Why did people not all climb walls in reality? Yea, I know about the odd time apparantly in Japan, but that does count for most times. So, why did soldiers not climb walls in reality to take a castle\Fort?

Answer:
1, Because it`s very, very TIRING and VERY HARD to climb walls. Only specialists using ropes could do it and not enough to take a walled castle.
2, Because it`s LOGICAL to attack the weakest point of a wall which is usually the GATES. You break the Gate, then you attack and KEEP ATTACKING. Yes, you lose lots of men, yes it looks stupid, but that`s how it was done. You keep attacking until you break through the enemy. This is why sieges are best attacked if you have a major superiority in numbers.

A really smart General will make 2 or 3 breaches including the Gate and attack all at once, forcing the defender to split his troops between 2, 3 or more breaches, increasing chance of offensive success and defensive defeat.

An even SMARTER General would bring siege weapons and pound the enemy until his resolve is severely reduced and if he doesn`t surrender to then attack his weakened forces through several breaches with more than twice the amount of men.

THIS is how it was done. And if CA could be arsed to do proper sieges, this is how it would be, instead of the frankly idiotic spider men with a lucozade amount of boundless energy shooting up walls and not even being tired and able to fight when at the top. In reality, men shooting up the walls should be EASILY slaughtered by untired defenders. Even children should be able to knock `em off the walls with a few well-placed slabs of stone.

Ridiculous how CA approach sieges today. Guess we`re gonna have to wait until another software company comes along and shows CA up or I buy my own software company and prove how it should be.

[visser300]

This is gaming for gaming sake.

Now let`s spend a moment to think about this, if you can.

It should be historically accurate. If done well enough then it will work.

Q: Why did people not all climb walls in reality? Yea, I know about the odd time apparantly in Japan, but that does count for most times. So, why did soldiers not climb walls in reality to take a castle\Fort?

Answer:
1, Because it`s very, very TIRING and VERY HARD to climb walls. Only specialists using ropes could do it and not enough to take a walled castle.
2, Because it`s LOGICAL to attack the weakest point of a wall which is usually the GATES. You break the Gate, then you attack and KEEP ATTACKING. Yes, you lose lots of men, yes it looks stupid, but that`s how it was done. You keep attacking until you break through the enemy. This is why sieges are best attacked if you have a major superiority in numbers.

A really smart General will make 2 or 3 breaches including the Gate and attack all at once, forcing the defender to split his troops between 2, 3 or more breaches, increasing chance of offensive success and defensive defeat.

An even SMARTER General would bring siege weapons and pound the enemy until his resolve is severely reduced and if he doesn`t surrender to then attack his weakened forces through several breaches with more than twice the amount of men.

THIS is how it was done. And if CA could be arsed to do proper sieges, this is how it would be, instead of the frankly idiotic spider men with a lucozade amount of boundless energy shooting up walls and not even being tired and able to fight when at the top. In reality, men shooting up the walls should be EASILY slaughtered by untired defenders. Even children should be able to knock `em off the walls with a few well-placed slabs of stone.

Ridiculous how CA approach sieges today. Guess we`re gonna have to wait until another software company comes along and shows CA up or I buy my own software company and prove how it should be.

Do you still remember M2TW? Yeah, it's not only the gate but the door to hell. The gate in M2TW has hot oil and ballista/catapult/cannon towers. I bet that no one stupid enough to attack a castle's gate in M2TW in the early game.

It is same for S2TW. When you get through a gate, your troop would be an easy target for enemy's archer. Moreover, when you get through it, you lost your advantage of being out number your enemy.

There was many times that my ninja has already opened a gate but I never let my infantry pass through it. The only advantage of passing through a gate is your cavalry dont have to dismount to enter the castle.

If you want, you can 1vs1 with me. I am defender and you are attacker. You can attack me through gates in the first time and then the next match you will try to attack me by climbing the wall. I will show you that attacking through a gate will cause you more casualty (Well, we assume that you are smart enough to climb on the wall that is not too high so your troops would not fall like flies).

[Humble Warrior]

Do you still remember M2TW? Yeah, it's not only the gate but the door to hell. The gate in M2TW has hot oil and ballista/catapult/cannon towers. I bet that no one stupid enough to attack a castle's gate in M2TW in the early game.

It is same for S2TW. When you get through a gate, your troop would be an easy target for enemy's archer. Moreover, when you get through it, you lost your advantage of being out number your enemy.

There was many times that my ninja has already opened a gate but I never let my infantry pass through it. The only advantage of passing through a gate is your cavalry dont have to dismount to enter the castle.

If you want, you can 1vs1 with me. I am defender and you are attacker. You can attack me through gates in the first time and then the next match you will try to attack me by climbing the wall. I will show you that attacking through a gate will cause you more casualty (Well, we assume that you are smart enough to climb on the wall that is not too high so your troops would not fall like flies).

You`re obviously not getting it yet. Or you choose not to read what I wrote. Or you`re just being bull- headed illogical stubborn.

But...

That`s how it is in Siege Warfare.


Thousands of men climbing the walls is NOT an option. It shouldn`t even begin to be. Ever. It`s hard, tiring. It takes an expert to effectly climb a wall, even with ropes. The men would be exhausted if they survived reaching the top. It doesn`t matter if more men die at the gate. You just wouldn`t attack up a wall because Men can`t do all that in their thousands.

Am I repeating myself. Yes, cos you never got it the 1st time.


Get more troops! Get more siege Towers or ladders! Not only attack the Gate but attack from every angle you can. But if no siege weapons you MUST attack the gates.

Every real life General would someohow have to deal with the problem. What do you think he said, "Ok Gates too dangerous. EVERY ONE JUST CLIMB THE WALLS! THAT WILL WORK!"

No it wouldn`t. So it shouldn`t be ingame, it`s a fantasy.

And if you don`t have siege weapons or ladders then starve them out.

I loved the way it was in MTW2- It was realistic and created many epic last stand battles.

[Erwin Rommel]

This is gaming for gaming sake.

Now let`s spend a moment to think about this, if you can.

It should be historically accurate. If done well enough then it will work.

Q: Why did people not all climb walls in reality? Yea, I know about the odd time apparantly in Japan, but that does count for most times. So, why did soldiers not climb walls in reality to take a castle\Fort?

Answer:
1, Because it`s very, very TIRING and VERY HARD to climb walls. Only specialists using ropes could do it and not enough to take a walled castle.
2, Because it`s LOGICAL to attack the weakest point of a wall which is usually the GATES. You break the Gate, then you attack and KEEP ATTACKING. Yes, you lose lots of men, yes it looks stupid, but that`s how it was done. You keep attacking until you break through the enemy. This is why sieges are best attacked if you have a major superiority in numbers.

A really smart General will make 2 or 3 breaches including the Gate and attack all at once, forcing the defender to split his troops between 2, 3 or more breaches, increasing chance of offensive success and defensive defeat.

An even SMARTER General would bring siege weapons and pound the enemy until his resolve is severely reduced and if he doesn`t surrender to then attack his weakened forces through several breaches with more than twice the amount of men.

THIS is how it was done. And if CA could be arsed to do proper sieges, this is how it would be, instead of the frankly idiotic spider men with a lucozade amount of boundless energy shooting up walls and not even being tired and able to fight when at the top. In reality, men shooting up the walls should be EASILY slaughtered by untired defenders. Even children should be able to knock `em off the walls with a few well-placed slabs of stone.

Ridiculous how CA approach sieges today. Guess we`re gonna have to wait until another software company comes along and shows CA up or I buy my own software company and prove how it should be.

In a Japan, a more even smarter general....

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

would take inspiration from Toyotomi Hideyoshi. The besieging force basically made a town of there own outside Odawara complete merrymaking just to let the Hojo hear it, they surrendered after 3 months. Since in Japan there is an absence of siege weapons and siege tactics are at best wait until who gets to run out of supplies first or weather out the expected sally out attack regardless of odds.

Like 10 years (Ishiyama Honganji), reduce the besiged to cannibalism, find a way to counter the shrewd besieged commander's idea of planting fruit bearing trees near the walls and dried vegetables waved in tatami mats. So in game terms, it translates to at least 10 turns in the campaign map of waiting for some damn siege to finish and hope to Hachiman the commander is itching for a sally out and then you can get the killing blow. Not really a nice way in gameplay.

No seriously, the siege weapon you call mangonels that hurl thunderclap bombs only appear at the Onin War, thats like the 15th century, so their CA made the preogative to made them available coz yeah to the uninitiated it would not make sense. During the initial invasion during the Imjin War, they would be facing different enemies, different modes in warfare, different castles, yet the Japanese never had a siege train to accompany it.*


*Osprey Siege Weapons of the Far East 2.

I know Wiki might not be a good source but whatever.

There is no record that the goal of destroying walls ever entered into the strategy of a Japanese siege. In fact, it was often seen to be more honorable, and more tactically advantageous on the part of the defender for him to lead his forces into battle outside the castle. When battles were not resolved in this way, out in the open, sieges were almost always undertaken purely by denying supplies to the castle, an effort which could last years, but involved little more than surrounding the castle with a force of sufficient size until a surrender could be elicited.

But meh this is about the bug, as for me, when I encountered it, as soon as I expected them the second force to be inactive save for 2 units near the front while the rest are bunched at the edge I just sallied out. The 2 units retreated, ok...... good.....makes sense....when my main body approached archers front, confident they they would not react, the 2nd army sent its cav to attack my archers, thank god my Yari are in close support so after eliminating it, the rest of the enemy army now composed of alot of Katana samurai and Yumi ashigaru, the moment my Yari ashigaru formed a spear wall and made a semblance of a battle line to approached them they just all out attacked. Whew I beat them in the end, spear wall protected in forest against arrows is a winning combination, well killing the Takeda Taisho named Baba did help too.

[Blee]

Gates are nothing in this game. It's very stupid to pour your army through a gate. One time, the enemy pour their troops through my gate and my 4 stars general and two ashigaru hold them until the time is end. If they climb the wall, I will finish.

No.......... Archers.

Not using gates is how people lose sieges in MP.

[Chopy]

Yep bug is there , even worse now.It can happen without reinforcements , enemy army just stands near the walls >_>

[Humble Warrior]

Yep bug is there , even worse now.It can happen without reinforcements , enemy army just stands near the walls >_>

Should`ve guessed. I wonder if CA are even really fixing sieges or have just put it off for their DLCS instead? I`ll see for myself anyway, but thnx.

[Hazbones]

Comparing Patch 5 and 6 the only new changes are in one of the avatar tables but I think that has something to do with MP and not siege battles so we are still stuck with the broke siege battles.

[Slaists]

I believe, in another thread discussing this, someone from CA mentioned that (post patch) IF the enemy's units are inside the castle while reinforcements are coming onto the map, the bug is likely to happen. I have had a couple siege battles since the patch and I have not encountered the siege bug yet. An AI enemy with three armies promptly wasted them all attacking my walls...

By the way, the bug that made even one army AI get stuck on a siege map was present before the patch. I have not encountered it post-patch yet.

[last_name_left]

Do you still remember M2TW? Yeah, it's not only the gate but the door to hell. The gate in M2TW has hot oil and ballista/catapult/cannon towers. I bet that no one stupid enough to attack a castle's gate in M2TW in the early game.

It is same for S2TW. When you get through a gate, your troop would be an easy target for enemy's archer. Moreover, when you get through it, you lost your advantage of being out number your enemy.

There was many times that my ninja has already opened a gate but I never let my infantry pass through it. The only advantage of passing through a gate is your cavalry dont have to dismount to enter the castle.

If you want, you can 1vs1 with me. I am defender and you are attacker. You can attack me through gates in the first time and then the next match you will try to attack me by climbing the wall. I will show you that attacking through a gate will cause you more casualty (Well, we assume that you are smart enough to climb on the wall that is not too high so your troops would not fall like flies).

That might be true in the game, but it reflects a failing of the game, not reality. Surely? Most of the castles here in Wales have broken walls. I can't see people would have scaled the walls with ropes against a defended position. You sit there and starve them out.....not very exciting though.

I don't like those......"spidermen".... in Empire. It's silly - anything coming over the top to gain a fix so as to allow climbing would simply be thrown off again, or cut. Or covered in grease, or something. I think the climbing thing is just silly: as if you would even have a serious chance of having the opportunity to throw something up there - no easy task in itself.

Once a hook lands, a crowbar or a knife would sort it. I do think it should be there, perhaps, but not as the primary method of assaulting a fortification.

[SonOfCrusader76]

Once a hook lands, a crowbar or a knife would sort it. I do think it should be there, perhaps, but not as the primary method of assaulting a fortification.

You could say the same about ladders in Rome and Medieval II - as soon as they put the ladder up, wait until some of them are climbing then heave-ho! Push it down. Why don't they do that to the ladders? Same reason they don't cut the grappling hooks - it would unbalance the game. They're not 'spidermen', they're using the rope to climb. When was the last time you saw Spiderman use a rope to actually climb the side of a building? That's right, you haven't.

You're right about it not being the primary method of assault though.

[Humble Warrior]

I`ve been testing STW2 since this recent clandestine patch with no announcement of what it is.

And I`m pretty sure there has been some work to fix the siege bug with this Patch. What I`ve noticed:

1. Every time the BAi has successfully pushed all its forces forward in attack, with one exception.

2. Had one case where ONE unit of Ashigaru were stuck behind my Fort walls. However, a quick bait attack freed them and the battle moved on to win.

Additional thing i`ve noticed:

A strange stutter happened when that one Ashigaru unit was struck. Never seen it before. As soon as the Ashigaru was freed up the game ran smooth again. This could not be an FPS issue since all that was left of the enemy was this Ashigaru unit and my piecemeal force. I think some AI routine was kicking in there due to the temporarily freezing unit.

Now perhaps this is just a placebo, but I`m pretty certain some attempts have been made to fix the siege bug and they`ve kept it quiet since it`s not fully fixed yet, although I don`t see why they just can`t say they`ve made a test mini-Patch. However, I will keep testing.

[Marmaga]

I'm pretty sure from empire and on CA's lead siege battle designer is this guy : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc1aSMuXDMQ