France and the Hijab

[Bjorn]

Hey there people. I'de like to start by saying that I'm not muslim, but I still can't bear how insanely stupid some people are starting to be when it comes to muslims...

In France a woman was taken arested for wearing the Hijab. I'de like to know what you guys think about that.

I at least can't understand how someone can actually justificate that kind of inprisonment. I imagine how a devoted christian would feel if he didn't have the right to wear his cross. For me it's the same thing.

*Voice in the back* Oh, but in muslim countries chrisians also are victims of preconcepts!

Yes, and it's also stupid as hell, but sincerly, I never expected something like this from a country like France, who prides itself of its ideals of Liberty, Fraternaty and Equality.

Something worth thinking about...

[PointOfViewGun]

It can be justified in places like government buildings where identity has more importance but it's completely acceptable to have such a ban in public. There should be a couple of laws in EU this is violating as it's a major infringement of personal freedoms.

Are they gonna start arresting kids who wear bed sheets to dress up as a ghost for Halloween?

[Dominicvs]

Its threatening, I have a few at my college, and you feel threatened, because you can't understand their personality, and can't read their identity.
Besides, France is a very traditional, Christian nation.

Its the same when you go to some Arab nations, as a women you must wear the headpiece, or you can imprisoned or killed.

[Copperknickers II]

Its threatening, I have a few at my college, and you feel threatened, because you can't understand their personality, and can't read their identity. Besides France is a traditional Christian nation.

Whilst I agree that if such people come over here they should adopt our culture insofar as language, laws and general public behaviour are concerned, I think it is just bizarre that people have such a problem with headscarfs, considering the way some people dress. I am far more inclined to be disapproving of young girls wearing skimpy tops and short shorts than Muslims. I certainly don't feel threatened, any more than I do in Winter when people where hoods and balaclavas. I'd like to know how you can tell someone's personality and identity just from looking at their face as well.

The Christian argument is complete lunacy as well: Christian women's traditional dress also includes a headscarf and sometimes a veil, not only in the contemporary Middle East but in France as well up until a century or two ago.

[Gromovnik]

But that's OK since it's a part of their beautiful culture, while the French are just being evil nazi zionist islamophobes.

[basics]

My own personal opinion is that all the confrontation amounts to stubbornness by a people who are not under duress to wear such apparel according to the Koran, yet insist regardless of the customs in the countries they are allowed to settle in. The question then is what is the agenda behind it? Why can't they accept our culture if they want to live among us?

For sure some of the acceptable ways we dress can be a bit outlandish especially in a society orientated towards presenting women as being free to express themselves in the manner they want yet with internationalised TV immigrants must be aware of this long before their decision is taken to come here, so why complain about us when they get here? So what's happened?

My best man at my fiirst wedding was an English boy married to the most beautiful Turkish lass yet she never hid herself from anyone. Long after I was invited to a home where another English lad was married to a Iranian beauty to taste the flavours of Iranian cooking and she never hid herself either. During this time the Ayatollah had replaced the Shah and then things took a downward turn yet surprisingly they supported the former.

To my mind it was the rise of fundamentalist Islam that in the hands of the extreme have to have complete control over its adherents and so what if the Koran doesn't demand it, the extremists do. People in the West find this as being regressive and therefore in the case of France have said enough is enough. Come if you must but don't impose your culture over us because we don't want it.

[Krixux]

Hey there people. I'de like to start by saying that I'm not muslim, but I still can't bear how insanely stupid some people are starting to be when it comes to muslims...

In France a woman was taken arested for wearing the Hijab. I'de like to know what you guys think about that.

I at least can't understand how someone can actually justificate that kind of inprisonment. I imagine how a devoted christian would feel if he didn't have the right to wear his cross. For me it's the same thing.

*Voice in the back* Oh, but in muslim countries chrisians also are victims of preconcepts!

Yes, and it's also stupid as hell, but sincerly, I never expected something like this from a country like France, who prides itself of its ideals of Liberty, Fraternaty and Equality.

Something worth thinking about...

From some google finds.......

The error of Europe is in believing that you can have it all, a generous social state and a dynamic economy, masses of Muslim immigrants and multiculturalism. The facts are that a generous social state will bleed the nation to death and multiculturalism is a myth especially with Islam whose aim is NOT to assimilate, but to conquer the nation it has a foothold in and to implement exclusively its own way of life.

And here is your answer:

There are officially four million Muslims in France today. The real figure is almost certainly higher, probably between six and seven million believers. Islam is already France's second largest religion, with 1,430 official mosques. Its followers are young, whereas practicing Catholics are old. If demographic trends are taken into account (a steady, uncontrolled flow of immigrants and a higher birth rate) Islam will become the dominant religion in France as early as 2015....

etc,etc...

Under Sharia, non-Muslims are forbidden to even criticize Islam. This is significant, considering that a Policy Exchange Poll found that forty percent of British Muslims prefer to be governed by Sharia. Thirty-six percent believe that "apostates" from Islam should be punished by death . A Guardian Poll indicates that a sizeable number of British Muslims favor terrorist attacks on the United States and even England.
　
There are presently 85 Sharia courts all across Britain, and, although initial defenders of the transformation claimed that Sharia courts would only exercise authority when consistent with British law, recent developments indicate that Muslims want Sharia pushed still further. Many Muslims advocate a separate police force due to the repeated embarrassment of rampant honour killing....
Dutch Muslims have such a grip on Holland that those who speak out must live in safe houses, like Dutch parliamentarian Geert Wilders. Yet the Dutch Minister of Justice still wants to make full Sharia an option on the next ballot, which would make Holland the first fully Islamic theocracy in the heart of Europe.

Cleric Yunis Al-Astal :
“I believe that our children or our grandchildren will inherit our Jihad and our sacrifices, and Allah willing, the commanders of the conquest will come from among them. Today, we install these good tidings in their souls, and by means of the mosques and the Koran books, and the history of our Prophets, his companions, and the great leaders, we prepare them for the mission of saving humanity from the hellfire on the brink of which they stand.”
　
All in all ....
ouch .....
　
　
　
　

[bamxa91]

As a muslim my personal opinion is that the kind of hijab (Burka) they have banned is fine (the one that makes you cover your face). No where in the Quran does it say that the woman has to cover her face and living in there country you have to compromise. HOWEVER, the only thing that makes me afraid is, if this is just a start and that one by one they start making the other hijabs unlawful. I can understand why they would want to ban the burka (for security and traditional reasons). However there is also hostility towards the regular hijab (the kinda one, worn by nuns) which does not cover your face. Banning this hijab would be very wrong in my opinion

[Bjorn]

Its threatening, I have a few at my college, and you feel threatened, because you can't understand their personality, and can't read their identity.
Besides, France is a very traditional, Christian nation.

Yeah, in my country I know of people who feel threatened by black men, why dont we just cut off their skin? *Irony, not racist* It's part of their culture, if you feel threatened by it it's because you or are a racist or are still not used to it because of normal cultural shocks, toughen up...

Its the same when you go to some Arab nations, as a women you must wear the headpiece, or you can imprisoned or killed.

Yes, and as I said, for me that's stupid as well, but at least they're not hipocrats who say they value liberty and equality...

My own personal opinion is that all the confrontation amounts to stubbornness by a people who are not under duress to wear such apparel according to the Koran, yet insist regardless of the customs in the countries they are allowed to settle in. The question then is what is the agenda behind it? Why can't they accept our culture if they want to live among us?

The Hijab is a cultural element. Nothing in the Bible that says catholic priasts are suppost to practice celibacy, but they do it...

For me, a muslim who goes to someone else's country has the obligation to respect its culture and its people. But in turn, if the muslim is paying his taxes and doing what is on the law, logic dictates that they should be able to carry out their own cultural particularities... Why is it that them using the Hijab seems to you like a threat to your own culture? Why cant they have their way and you have yours? And why do you believe they should be forced to assimilate into your culture? People dont change just because the nation he's in isn't the same as the one he was born in. Im a Brazillian and I lived in the US and in Ireland... I am DEEPLY greatfull for those two nations having me, and you will always hear praise of me If I talk about them (along with some remarks here and there, since Im also human ). But I'm still a Brazilian, and I will die a Brazilian... it's culture, it's what you were born with.

From some google finds.......

The error of Europe is in believing that you can have it all, a generous social state and a dynamic economy, masses of Muslim immigrants and multiculturalism. The facts are that a generous social state will bleed the nation to death and multiculturalism is a myth especially with Islam whose aim is NOT to assimilate, but to conquer the nation it has a foothold in and to implement exclusively its own way of life.

Stop accepting imigrants then, alot easier then harassing them when they're there

And as far as I've seem, the bible preaches the same thing so...

And here is your answer:

There are officially four million Muslims in France today. The real figure is almost certainly higher, probably between six and seven million believers. Islam is already France's second largest religion, with 1,430 official mosques. Its followers are young, whereas practicing Catholics are old. If demographic trends are taken into account (a steady, uncontrolled flow of immigrants and a higher birth rate) Islam will become the dominant religion in France as early as 2015....

If your nation is so certainly going to lose it's cultural identity, why dont you do the civil thing? Stop imigration and encourage those french dudes to have kids... It's alot better then what they're doing now.

etc,etc...

And etc, and etc...

Under Sharia, non-Muslims are forbidden to even criticize Islam. This is significant, considering that a Policy Exchange Poll found that forty percent of British Muslims prefer to be governed by Sharia. Thirty-six percent believe that "apostates" from Islam should be punished by death . A Guardian Poll indicates that a sizeable number of British Muslims favor terrorist attacks on the United States and even England.

what would you call an Apostate, sorry my ignorance but I didnt get it xD

Define a sizable nuber, with source please...
And yeah, sometimes we see in Brazil protestant churches preaching people to attack Candomblécists (a religion that unites varios native-african religions into one, made by the Brazilian slaves) and Umbandists (religion with African related elements). Religious Fanatism = Stupid People, doesnt matter if he's muslim or not...

There are presently 85 Sharia courts all across Britain, and, although initial defenders of the transformation claimed that Sharia courts would only exercise authority when consistent with British law, recent developments indicate that Muslims want Sharia pushed still further. Many Muslims advocate a separate police force due to the repeated embarrassment of rampant honour killing...

Why the hell would a government agree that religious organizations have political and/or judicial power? *I know that they do, just shouting out how I think it's stupidity...*

Dutch Muslims have such a grip on Holland that those who speak out must live in safe houses, like Dutch parliamentarian Geert Wilders. Yet the Dutch Minister of Justice still wants to make full Sharia an option on the next ballot, which would make Holland the first fully Islamic theocracy in the heart of Europe.

That's the difference between a muslim and a radically religious criminal
If muslims what to live by their own law, they should do that Symbolicly by simply following their own goddamn teachings... they dont have to create a whole institution for it. If they want a religious institution that exercess judicial power, then go back to your own country...

Cleric Yunis Al-Astal :
“I believe that our children or our grandchildren will inherit our Jihad and our sacrifices, and Allah willing, the commanders of the conquest will come from among them. Today, we install these good tidings in their souls, and by means of the mosques and the Koran books, and the history of our Prophets, his companions, and the great leaders, we prepare them for the mission of saving humanity from the hellfire on the brink of which they stand.”

This guy talks like a local christian priest here

[Claudius Gothicus]

''Good''(if we are willing to take populism out of the picture, which is hard) intention, bad method.

[Bjorn]

''Good''(if we are willing to take populism out of the picture, which is hard) intention, bad method.

Care to elaberate, friend?

[Claudius Gothicus]

Well it's a difficult issue.

But it's ''good'' because(again if we are willing to move the populist motivation out of the picture) it aims at social integration and intensification of cultural bonds.

The obvious next question would be: What is Western Culture? well in my opinion it's a never ending spiral of conflicting processes that aim at ''the liberation of the individual and the empowerment of the whole''(this is tremendously Hegelian but it can be agreed on by most).

What those ''clothes'' did was IMO aiming at immobilizing the chances of self determination and ''liberation'' in a certain amount of individuals(Muslim women in this case) while at the same time fracturing the ''whole''(the whole would be understood as in Western Society's social norms). Therefore it was in a certain way ''detrimental''.

The problem in this line of argument lies in the basis for ''western current ethics'' which are in any way overly individualistic, so to deem hijabs immoral you have first to prove that these were a tool of masculine coercion(which they are if you ask me). So the French State's move on banning them was an unsourced overreaction, first they need to prove that hijab damaged the liberty of those women and then, ONLY THEN, they might talk about measures. Which again are conflicting measures since an hypothetical research might show that 90% of women using them are doing it under fear while the other 10% do it because they are convinced and if you ban the use you might be liberating the 90% to enslave(literally since they would be more or less stay at home persons) th other 10%.

What would have been an accurate measure(but then this would have to be done 30 years ago) was COMPLETE SOCIAL INTEGRATION, this is best issued through educational institutions(like schools), if you have a large percentage of immigrants then you need to turn their kids into average natives, and for this to happen the overly individualistic nature of western ethics needs to relax a little bit and start thinking about the functioning of the whole.

[Nyxos]

the law is just there to make far right voters like Sarkozy and vote for him next year. It only affects about 1000 women and thats a large estimate. There is no "Liberté Egalité Fraternité" in that law, its all "Votez Sarko"

[removeduser_4536284751384]

Most Muslim countries ban them.

[The Noble Lord]

In France a woman was taken arested for wearing the Hijab. I'de like to know what you guys think about that.

You should've made some research, the women was arrested for wearing the Niqab and not the Hijab. There is a clear distinction between the two, Hijab is head and neck covering while Niqab covers the entire body and the face with the exception of the eyes. The Niqab was banned in France recently and Hijab is allowed!
As for my opinion on it, it was a stupid and retarded decision on the part of Sarkozy, doesn't he have more pressing and important issues to deal with instead focusing on a very small population of women that wear Niqab, something like 2-3 thousand women wear Niqab in France today, which is nothing for a country of 40 something million. Plus, Niqab as Hijab is a matter of personal choice and it comes under freedom of choice pillar of democracy, so if some women want to wear Niqab let them wear! And just for the record, Niqab has nothing to do with Islam, it is pre-Islamic and more of a Byzantine invention!

[Bjorn]

You should've made some research, the women was arrested for wearing the Niqab and not the Hijab. There is a clear distinction between the two, Hijab is head and neck covering while Niqab covers the entire body and the face with the exception of the eyes. The Niqab was banned in France recently and Hijab is allowed!

Sorry for the bad research, and thanks for the info mate! Islamic culture (and arab culture in general) still is a mystery to me in many ways, it's always good to know something new about it

[Visna]

Niqabs and Burqas are such a minor issue anyways, it's pure populism and symbolic politics to ban them. Keep them out of places where people's identity is an issue, but why on earth should I care if someone want to wear a particular piece of religious (cultural) accessory?

If those women are truly forced or coerced into wearing them by obsessive family members, a ban will only serve to make them even more excluded. If they are not forced what sets them apart from any other subculture which also uses clothing as a way of signalling belonging to that particular group?
If they are forced, treat it as any other form of abuse, establish support networks, inform them of their possibilities etc. If they are not forced, leave them alone and try to focus on more important issues than what a few hundred people wear when going outside.

[basics]

I cannot understand why there is so much appeasement here as the attire is ridiculous in the extreme and quite disturbing into the bargain. Think about it seriously for a moment and not as something that one can take or leave because it doesn't personally affect us.

If your country became Muslim how long would it be before your mothers, aunts, sisters and cousins were obliged by men in beards to be covered from head to foot in a garb that most of us wouldn't even dream of wearing at Halloween. The idea is quite proposterous and before it is too late we should by law design it to the dustbin of history where it belongs.

I mean it is rather odd that some who want freedom of speech and other freedoms want to allow one half of our populations to be forbidden that privilege, to have to walk around like figures out of Dr Who. Yes the very same people who denounce the Bible and all it stands for but are content to say that women who are covered from head to toe doesn't bother them. Makes you wonder what our forefathers fought and died for.

[Copperknickers II]

I mean it is rather odd that some who want freedom of speech and other freedoms want to allow one half of our populations to be forbidden that privilege, to have to walk around like figures out of Dr Who. Yes the very same people who denounce the Bible and all it stands for but are content to say that women who are covered from head to toe doesn't bother them. Makes you wonder what our forefathers fought and died for.

Your forefathers fought and died for liberty and freedom from tyranny. It's not a particularly savage form of tyranny but its still an impingement on one's freedoms to forbid certain modes of dress according to non-existant national sensibilities.

And the security argument is stupid as well: how many muggings, armed robberies and terrorist attacks are committed by women in Burqas? I'd be very surprised if there was a single instance of one in France. Besides, we don't ban motorcyclists, we just ask them to take of their helmets when they enter shops.

[basics]

" Your forefathers fought and died for liberty and freedom from tyranny. It's not a particularly savage form of tyranny but its still an impingement on one's freedoms to forbid certain modes of dress according to non-existant national sensibilities. "

Copperknickers II,

Quite true, so how do you think they would feel seeing what they died for being taken over by a foreign habit or culture coming in by the back door? But the biggest question of all is that if Muslim men argue that this is some way to protect their women because they love and cherish them why do they chase so many women that are not Muslim? And, once they get them in marriage or conversion what is the first thing they do? Cover them up as well.

When Adam and Eve were made they were naked and whilst in the heavenly type they remained naked. It wasn't until they fell under the curse or rather on discovering good and evil, that God provided skins to cover their parts and if that had included head to toe covering I am quite sure the people then would have carried that tradition on into the tribes of Israel. The point is that they didn't and there never was any call for them to do so.

Women are the most beautiful things on the planet. They were meant to be and be seen by men to be in the purposes of God. They were never meant to be covered up that none could appreciate what they are. Don't confuse that in compromises that are not of God or nature because some insideous old men insist upon it yet themselves are quite happy to have as many women as they want as long as they are prepared to be hidden from the world.