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  1. #1

    Default Veterans speak up against the war on "terrorism"



    An extremely interesting video as a range of veterans express their opinions after having served in Iraq. It's quite clear what I'd make of this, but I'd like to present it to the pro-war members.
    Last edited by Guy; May 12, 2011 at 07:10 PM.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Veterans speak up against the war against "terrorism"

    Inb4 American fanboys label them all as "turthers" and "terrorist supporters".

  3. #3

    Default Re: Veterans speak up against the war on "terrorism"

    I would like to mention what of those men who support the war, their opinions do not matter, besides its not like this is very many in the video which raises the question whats the point of the video?Or this thread as a whole? Also LOL youtube.
    Last edited by charles the hammer; May 12, 2011 at 06:56 PM.



  4. #4
    Dubh the dark's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Veterans speak up against the war on "terrorism"



    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Thank you everyone. Thank you all for your tremendous support. How honored and delighted I am to be in the same room with you tonight. I am deeply humbled by being in the company of such wonderful speakers.

    You are all true American patriots. Although long since out of uniform, you continue to fight for the very same principles you once swore to uphold and defend. No one knows the devastation and suffering of war more than veterans - which is why we should always be the first to prevent it.

    I wasn't entirely sure what to say tonight. I thought as a leader in general I should speak to motivate. Now I know that this isn't the military and surely there are many out there who outranked me at one point or another - and yes, I'm just a Lieutenant. And yet, I feel as though we are all citizens of this great country and what I have to say is not a matter of authority - but from one citizen to another. We have all seen this war tear apart our country over the past three years. It seems as though nothing we've done, from vigils to protests to letters to Congress, have had any effect in persuading the powers that be. Tonight I will speak to you on my ideas for a change of strategy. I am here tonight because I took a leap of faith. My action is not the first and it certainly will not be the last. Yet, on behalf of those who follow, I require your help - your sacrifice - and that of countless other Americans. I may fail. We may fail. But nothing we have tried has worked so far. It is time for change and the change starts with all of us.

    I stand before you today, not as an expert - not as one who pretends to have all the answers. I am simply an American and a servant of the American people. My humble opinions today are just that. I realize that you may not agree with everything I have to say. However, I did not choose to be a leader for popularity. I did it to serve and make better the soldiers of this country. And I swore to carry out this charge honorably under the rule of law.

    Today, I speak with you about a radical idea. It is one born from the very concept of the American soldier (or service member). It became instrumental in ending the Vietnam War - but it has been long since forgotten. The idea is this: that to stop an illegal and unjust war, the soldiers can choose to stop fighting it.

    Now it is not an easy task for the soldier. For he or she must be aware that they are being used for ill-gain. They must hold themselves responsible for individual action. They must remember duty to the Constitution and the people supersedes the ideologies of their leadership. The soldier must be willing to face ostracism by their peers, worry over the survival of their families, and of course the loss of personal freedom. They must know that resisting an authoritarian government at home is equally important to fighting a foreign aggressor on the battlefield. Finally, those wearing the uniform must know beyond any shadow of a doubt that by refusing immoral and illegal orders they will be supported by the people not with mere words but by action.

    The American soldier must rise above the socialization that tells them authority should always be obeyed without question. Rank should be respected but never blindly followed. Awareness of the history of atrocities and destruction committed in the name of America - either through direct military intervention or by proxy war - is crucial. They must realize that this is a war not out of self-defense but by choice, for profit and imperialistic domination. WMD, ties to Al Qaeda, and ties to 9/11 never existed and never will. The soldier must know that our narrowly and questionably elected officials intentionally manipulated the evidence presented to Congress, the public, and the world to make the case for war. They must know that neither Congress nor this administration has the authority to violate the prohibition against pre-emptive war - an American law that still stands today. This same administration uses us for rampant violations of time-tested laws banning torture and degradation of prisoners of war. Though the American soldier wants to do right, the illegitimacy of the occupation itself, the policies of this administration, and rules of engagement of desperate field commanders will ultimately force them to be party to war crimes. They must know some of these facts, if not all, in order to act.

    Mark Twain once remarked, "Each man must for himself alone decide what is right and what is wrong, which course is patriotic and which isn't. You cannot shirk this and be a man. To decide against your conviction is to be an unqualified and inexcusable traitor, both to yourself and to your country …" By this, each and every American soldier, marine, airman, and sailor is responsible for their choices and their actions. The freedom to choose is only one that we can deny ourselves.

    The oath we take swears allegiance not to one man but to a document of principles and laws designed to protect the people. Enlisting in the military does not relinquish one's right to seek the truth - neither does it excuse one from rational thought nor the ability to distinguish between right and wrong. "I was only following orders" is never an excuse.

    The Nuremburg Trials showed America and the world that citizenry as well as soldiers have the unrelinquishable obligation to refuse complicity in war crimes perpetrated by their government. Widespread torture and inhumane treatment of detainees is a war crime. A war of aggression born through an unofficial policy of prevention is a crime against the peace. An occupation violating the very essence of international humanitarian law and sovereignty is a crime against humanity. These crimes are funded by our tax dollars. Should citizens choose to remain silent through self-imposed ignorance or choice, it makes them as culpable as the soldier in these crimes.

    The Constitution is no mere document - neither is it old, out-dated, or irrelevant. It is the embodiment of all that Americans hold dear: truth, justice, and equality for all. It is the formula for a government of the people and by the people. It is a government that is transparent and accountable to whom they serve. It dictates a system of checks and balances and separation of powers to prevent the evil that is tyranny.

    As strong as the Constitution is, it is not foolproof. It does not fully take into account the frailty of human nature. Profit, greed, and hunger for power can corrupt individuals as much as they can corrupt institutions. The founders of the Constitution could not have imagined how money would infect our political system. Neither could they believe a standing army would be used for profit and manifest destiny. Like any common dictatorship, soldiers would be ordered to commit acts of such heinous nature as to be deemed most ungentlemanly and unbecoming that of a free country.

    The American soldier is not a mercenary. He or she does not simply fight wars for payment. Indeed, the state of the American soldier is worse than that of a mercenary. For a soldier-for-hire can walk away if they are disgusted by their employer's actions. Instead, especially when it comes to war, American soldiers become indentured servants whether they volunteer out of patriotism or are drafted through economic desperation. Does it matter what the soldier believes is morally right? If this is a war of necessity, why force men and women to fight? When it comes to a war of ideology, the lines between right and wrong are blurred. How tragic it is when the term Catch-22 defines the modern American military.

    Aside from the reality of indentured servitude, the American soldier in theory is much nobler. Soldier or officer, when we swear our oath it is first and foremost to the Constitution and its protectorate, the people. If soldiers realized this war is contrary to what the Constitution extols - if they stood up and threw their weapons down - no President could ever initiate a war of choice again. When we say, "… Against all enemies foreign and domestic," what if elected leaders became the enemy? Whose orders do we follow? The answer is the conscience that lies in each soldier, each American, and each human being. Our duty to the Constitution is an obligation, not a choice.

    The military, and especially the Army, is an institution of fraternity and close-knit camaraderie. Peer pressure exists to ensure cohesiveness but it stamps out individualism and individual thought. The idea of brotherhood is difficult to pull away from if the alternative is loneliness and isolation. If we want soldiers to choose the right but difficult path - they must know beyond any shadow of a doubt that they will be supported by Americans. To support the troops who resist, you must make your voices heard. If they see thousands supporting me, they will know. I have heard your support, as has Suzanne Swift, and Ricky Clousing - but many others have not. Increasingly, more soldiers are questioning what they are being asked to do. Yet, the majority lack awareness to the truth that is buried beneath the headlines. Many more see no alternative but to obey. We must show open-minded soldiers a choice and we must give them courage to act.

    Three weeks ago, Sgt. Hernandez from the 172nd Stryker Brigade was killed, leaving behind a wife and two children. In an interview, his wife said he sacrificed his life so that his family could survive. I'm sure Sgt. Hernandez cherished the camaraderie of his brothers, but given a choice, I doubt he would put himself in a position to leave his family husbandless and fatherless. Yet that's the point, you see. People like Sgt. Hernandez don't have a choice. The choices are to fight in Iraq or let your family starve. Many soldiers don't refuse this war en mass because, like all of us,, they value their families over their own lives and perhaps their conscience. Who would willingly spend years in prison for principle and morality while denying their family sustenance?

    I tell this to you because you must know that to stop this war, for the soldiers to stop fighting it, they must have the unconditional support of the people. I have seen this support with my own eyes. For me it was a leap of faith. For other soldiers, they do not have that luxury. They must know it and you must show it to them. Convince them that no matter how long they sit in prison, no matter how long this country takes to right itself, their families will have a roof over their heads, food in their stomachs, opportunities and education. This is a daunting task. It requires the sacrifice of all of us. Why must Canadians feed and house our fellow Americans who have chosen to do the right thing? We should be the ones taking care of our own. Are we that powerless - are we that unwilling to risk something for those who can truly end this war? How do you support the troops but not the war? By supporting those who can truly stop it; let them know that resistance to participate in an illegal war is not futile and not without a future.

    I have broken no law but the code of silence and unquestioning loyalty. If I am guilty of any crime, it is that I learned too much and cared too deeply for the meaningless loss of my fellow soldiers and my fellow human beings. If I am to be punished it should be for following the rule of law over the immoral orders of one man. If I am to be punished it should be for not acting sooner. Martin Luther King Jr. once said, "History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period … was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people."

    Now, I'm not a hero. I am a leader of men who said enough is enough. Those who called for war prior to the invasion compared diplomacy with Saddam to the compromises made with Hitler. I say, we compromise now by allowing a government that uses war as the first option instead of the last to act with impunity. Many have said this about the World Trade Towers, "Never Again." I agree. Never again will we allow those who threaten our way of life to reign free - be they terrorists or elected officials. The time to fight back is now - the time to stand up and be counted is today.

    I'll end with one more Martin Luther King Jr. quote:

    One who breaks an unjust law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.

    Thank you and bless you all.

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  5. #5

    Default Re: Veterans speak up against the war against "terrorism"

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Joe View Post
    Inb4 American fanboys label them all as "turthers" and "terrorist supporters".
    Before you ramble on you do know that Mother Russia did also declare war on terrorism?...

  6. #6

    Default Re: Veterans speak up against the war against "terrorism"

    Quote Originally Posted by SPECTREtm View Post
    Before you ramble on you do know that Mother Russia did also declare war on terrorism?...
    Sure. Putin would do anything for populism.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Veterans speak up against the war on "terrorism"

    On the subject of interesting video's of differing opinions.




    Suppose the point is, talking is the easy part. How fast things change...


    okay, an entire different era and a different Bush, but i've always liked this one as well.

    Last edited by Pyrich; May 12, 2011 at 07:17 PM.

  8. #8
    Menelik_I's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Veterans speak up against the war on "terrorism"

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy View Post
    An extremely interesting video as a range of veterans express their opinions after having served in Iraq. It's quite clear what I'd make of this, but I'd like to present it to the pro-war members.
    By Veterans which included Adam LOLKokesh

    But in any case I was expecting a anti-US rant over many pages ... some improvements.

    Some of the people are clearly exaggerating and the 9/11 dudes are just LOL ... only redeeming value are those who claim constitutional invalidity and lack of necessity.
    « Le courage est toujours quelque chose de saint, un jugement divin entre deux idées. Défendre notre cause de plus en plus vigoureusement est conforme ŕ la nature humaine. Notre supręme raison d’ętre est donc de lutter ; on ne possčde vraiment que ce qu’on acquiert en combattant. »Ernst Jünger
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Veterans speak up against the war on "terrorism"

    These anti-war people are funny to me. Yes, let's stop the war AFTER we already invaded. Sit there and talk about the morality and so forth but you want us to what leave the country in its current state? Yes that's entirely moral as well. Despite that I find some of those people in the videos pretty humorous. I'd like a list of their MOS, where they served, and specific incidents they were referring to. I find the idea of the one man who said he was repeatedly told by officers and NCOs to shoot unarmed civilians particularly astounding and I have a very, very, very hard time believing such a thing. Nevertheless, hundreds of thousands of people have served in Iraq so its not all that surprising that some are against the war. People have opinions. Being in the military doesn't change that.

  10. #10
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: Veterans speak up against the war on "terrorism"

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jin View Post
    These anti-war people are funny to me. Yes, let's stop the war AFTER we already invaded. Sit there and talk about the morality and so forth but you want us to what leave the country in its current state? Yes that's entirely moral as well. Despite that I find some of those people in the videos pretty humorous. I'd like a list of their MOS, where they served, and specific incidents they were referring to. I find the idea of the one man who said he was repeatedly told by officers and NCOs to shoot unarmed civilians particularly astounding and I have a very, very, very hard time believing such a thing. Nevertheless, hundreds of thousands of people have served in Iraq so its not all that surprising that some are against the war. People have opinions. Being in the military doesn't change that.
    And then they show the coward Watada...
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

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  11. #11
    Katsumoto's Avatar Quae est infernum es
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    Default Re: Veterans speak up against the war on "terrorism"

    Quote Originally Posted by Farnan View Post
    And then they show the coward Watada...
    Why exactly is he a coward?
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    Default Re: Veterans speak up against the war on "terrorism"

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post
    Why exactly is he a coward?
    Joined the Army at the lead up to the Iraq War (so it wasn't a case where he didn't know there would be a war in Iraq when he joined, even though that is a retarded excuse) but when his unit was ordered to deploy suddenly decided he didn't want to go and refused to deploy.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

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  13. #13

    Default Re: Veterans speak up against the war on "terrorism"

    Quote Originally Posted by Farnan View Post
    Joined the Army at the lead up to the Iraq War (so it wasn't a case where he didn't know there would be a war in Iraq when he joined, even though that is a retarded excuse) but when his unit was ordered to deploy suddenly decided he didn't want to go and refused to deploy.
    You join the army, you agree to all the risks inherent in serving, including fighting in a war.
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    Default Re: Veterans speak up against the war on "terrorism"

    Quote Originally Posted by Farnan View Post
    And then they show the coward Watada...
    Did the prosecution just righteously frak up their case? Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending his refusal to deploy here, but damn you'd think they should've been able to convict.
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  15. #15
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: Veterans speak up against the war on "terrorism"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Did the prosecution just righteously frak up their case? Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending his refusal to deploy here, but damn you'd think they should've been able to convict.
    They righteously fraked up their case...

    That combined with the fact that the military and Justice Department just wanted to get it over with. Watada wanted a trial so that he can gain some noteriety so having the case end in a technicality meant that Watada fades to obscurity like he has.

    Umm Dubh, no it does not, and no he didn't make himself a leader of war resisters. It takes far less courage to face a discharge and MAYBE a short jail sentance (which would result in him being able to make money off a book) than to go to Iraq in 2006. Also, his opinions on the war only came out just before he was about to deploy, if he as a real "war resister" he would take action before he had to do something about it.

    He's a ing coward.
    Last edited by Farnan; May 13, 2011 at 09:32 AM.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

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    Dubh the dark's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Veterans speak up against the war on "terrorism"

    Quote Originally Posted by Farnan View Post
    They righteously fraked up their case...

    That combined with the fact that the military and Justice Department just wanted to get it over with. Watada wanted a trial so that he can gain some noteriety so having the case end in a technicality meant that Watada fades to obscurity like he has.
    He's faded so much that we're discussing him on a computer gaming website..
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    Default Re: Veterans speak up against the war on "terrorism"

    What I find amusing is how easily the US public was manipulated to invade Iraq. I don't really care if the US wants to invade Iraq, but let's not think it was because of WMDs. That had nothing to do with it. It was such a transparent, foolish veneer of a reason, that the fact anyone believed it was astonishing to me. But they did, and aggressively argued against my viewpoint which I expressed too many in the US at the time. I remind some of them today of those arguments, and they look sheepish.

    What I tried to impress on people in the US, was this was them buying a very big problem - but - they wouldn't listen. Having Saddam in power, was infinitely better for US interests than having an Islamic party in power in Iraq, which could happen. Also, killing Saddam did a very big favour for Iran. The Arab Strongman up vs Islamic cleric down policy of the US has been turned on its head, so the risk is you are going to get Islamic cleric Tehran style regimes, in Egypt, in Iraq, in the Ivory Coast, Tunisia, Nigeria.

    In some ways I agree with these soldiers - there was a lot of money made by KBR, Halliburton and all the rest. Trillions in taxpayer money wasted on a war which seemed pointless. What has the US accomplished? Removed Saddam? That cost $5 trillion. And the US still doesn't have the oil.

    My view is only pragmatic - was it worth it? I don't think so.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Veterans speak up against the war on "terrorism"

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    What I find amusing is how easily the US public was manipulated to invade Iraq. I don't really care if the US wants to invade Iraq, but let's not think it was because of WMDs. That had nothing to do with it. It was such a transparent, foolish veneer of a reason, that the fact anyone believed it was astonishing to me. But they did, and aggressively argued against my viewpoint which I expressed too many in the US at the time. I remind some of them today of those arguments, and they look sheepish.

    What I tried to impress on people in the US, was this was them buying a very big problem - but - they wouldn't listen. Having Saddam in power, was infinitely better for US interests than having an Islamic party in power in Iraq, which could happen. Also, killing Saddam did a very big favour for Iran. The Arab Strongman up vs Islamic cleric down policy of the US has been turned on its head, so the risk is you are going to get Islamic cleric Tehran style regimes, in Egypt, in Iraq, in the Ivory Coast, Tunisia, Nigeria.

    In some ways I agree with these soldiers - there was a lot of money made by KBR, Halliburton and all the rest. Trillions in taxpayer money wasted on a war which seemed pointless. What has the US accomplished? Removed Saddam? That cost $5 trillion. And the US still doesn't have the oil.

    My view is only pragmatic - was it worth it? I don't think so.
    The war was more accurately pushed by several neo-cons and of course the strong Israeli lobby which wanted Saddam out of the picture in the Middle East. Without these external factors, I highly doubt Bush would have invaded, but instead he invaded and he made sure to sell it well to the people through false information.
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  19. #19
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: Veterans speak up against the war on "terrorism"

    Yep, but this guy betrayed his uniform and his unit...
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

  20. #20

    Default Re: Veterans speak up against the war on "terrorism"

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana Jelly View Post
    . They retired, and they didn't betray anything. If anything you're betraying our American constitution, for them to speak of what right to them (which is the first amendment just in case you forgot). They fought in the front lines, attacked innocents, and they didn't feel right when they did it. I don't care if they're soldiers. They as all of us have hearts.

    But, in a war, this happens. Innocents are murdered, the enemies are portrayed as bloodthirsty murderers (well at least the invaders are), troops die for no cause. It's all war.

    I am not going to argue about the credibility of the war, as there are both pros and cons (however there are more cons them pro's). But the issues such as officers ordering the shootings of innocent bystanders just because they feel "uncomfortable"? That's just insane.

    When they're in the front lines, they are ordered to do things, and they do it. That's how it goes. If I was in the boots of an American Soldier, I would have done the same thing. However, questioning the morality of the issue after the event is not wrong at all. You aren't betraying your country... An oath to serve your country is something, and to speak out for whats wrong is something else.
    Who is they? He was talking about one person, and retired? He was going into service until he all of a sudden decided that it was wrong. So you say Farnan is betraying the constiton, somehow, while not even addressing what he was talking about.



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