Regarding the use of Tanks

[mAIOR]

I know these won't be out in the next release however, I would like to ask what're the team plans regarding those cute metal beasties? I think tanks should come in two flavours, or rather, two different units. The first unit (and the one more readily available circa 1916) would be a small 1 or 2 tank strong group to reflect their first use as simply infantry support. They could be taken care of rather easily since their numbers wouldn't be high enough (unless you sacrifice artillery and infantry). The second unit should become available after researching the appropriate technology (which could be fittingly called J. F. C. Fuller massed armour doctrine) and constructing the right building. This should make the tanks units bigger (maybe ten tanks) and since you achieve a higher concentration of tanks, their role would be greatly extended. This is to represent the time (circa 1917 - Cambrai) when tanks started to be regarded in their best role away from infantry support. Of course, this technology in this time frame should be harder for the Germans to get access to (they only built 20 tanks during the entire war) though the Germans, should gain other advantages such as having the biggest number of MGs in an early stage and access to the stormtrooper doctrine which would give them (within engine possibilities of course) access to mixed weapon squads of infantry. Regarding this late German troops, they should have grenades and smk rounds so they can damage tanks (they took out quite a few in the German 1918 offensive) and maybe give the officer and the standard bearer a light machine gun of sorts instead of rifles and slightly improved fire rate and accuracy to the whole unit. This would allow for a lot of tactical flexibility and if used correctly together with flamethrowers as support should give the most enthusiastic tank commanders a run for their money.



Cheers...

[.Mitch.]

The problem is not implementation of how tanks should be portrayed, such as numbers and how accesible the unit would be to each faction; the problem is far more technical, in that I don't see any way to actualy get tanks into the game, what with us being limited by the engine.

That said, your points are all valid in that tank superiority would be British far more than German. On this note we are looking to create a much more realistic and time orientated unit roster system. For instance, units being available early being the units that are very poorly adapted to WW1 warfare, then later in the war the player gets more and more access to all units that were created and adapted to be far more adapt at the style of warfare.

[mAIOR]

The problem is not implementation of how tanks should be portrayed, such as numbers and how accesible the unit would be to each faction; the problem is far more technical, in that I don't see any way to actualy get tanks into the game, what with us being limited by the engine.

That said, your points are all valid in that tank superiority would be British far more than German. On this note we are looking to create a much more realistic and time orientated unit roster system. For instance, units being available early being the units that are very poorly adapted to WW1 warfare, then later in the war the player gets more and more access to all units that were created and adapted to be far more adapt at the style of warfare.

I realize that tanks and ships are not likely to be implemented in a near future but, seeing all your previews and discussions and what you've managed so far, I'd risk saying that it's inevitable. I haven't seen a moding team so adept and keen at changing the unchangeable since EB1 started . It's inspiring to watch you lot work. And (not wanting to sound overly optimistic) I tend to believe that where's a will, there's a way
What you guys've already achieved is already beyond my wildest expectations and using your current 4.5 one can already have a glimpse of WWI... sometimes (other's, it CTDs :p seriously happened around 5 times now whenever I'm really getting into the game the bloody thing crashes ). My question was more to get a feel on how you plan to make such units work. I have faith in you lot. If I had the time to actually try and create anything that could help your mod, I would. Tell you what, I recently read that the campaign maps in ETW/NTW are defined by vectorial information. Being a Surveying Engineer I have all kinds of tools to play around with this kind of data. If you could point me the files, I can try and see if I can read an edit them.

Also, have you messed around with the defence values of units to find out what kind of outraging value would make a unit invulnerable to rifle fire?



Cheers...

[alhoon]

the problem is far more technical, in that I don't see any way to actualy get tanks into the game, what with us being limited by the engine.

What's the problem with the engine? can't you just remodel elephants to look like tanks or something?

[.Mitch.]

lol, that was the plan. We messed around for a while to try out different bases for tanks, but you face a whole load of problems. Such as bullets being able to kill tanks, animations (we don't have anyone who can do animations), a host of problems to do with the crew, how the projectile/s are fired, basicaly a lot of problems like these.

[alhoon]

lol, that was the plan. We messed around for a while to try out different bases for tanks, but you face a whole load of problems. Such as bullets being able to kill tanks, animations (we don't have anyone who can do animations), a host of problems to do with the crew, how the projectile/s are fired, basicaly a lot of problems like these.

Bullets able to kill tanks? Wouldn't armor say 100 along with 10 hp stop that? *
Problems with the crew? What do you mean? The crew would just die when the tank blows up. Except if you want to make it really weird so you can use the "dismount" thing and then the crew could get out of the tank.
Animations? Well that's a problem you can't bypass.

* Tested in ETW: I had 1000 swordsmen with 100 armor standing and getting shot by 1120 elite riflemen (70 accuracy), and I approached quite a bit so that the riflemen would be more lethal. By the time the riflemen have spent their 20 bullets (i.e after 22400 rifle bullets from medium range with 70 accuracy) I've lost about half the swordsmen. No need to mention that once the riflemen got in melee with the swordsmen they didn't kill a single one.

[King Sama]

While I assume, the British would recieve superior tanks in terms of stats, and perhaps start out with an extra tech in the line of techs that will be necesary for a tank, a german player who focused on tank technology should be able to easily outpace the British or French in that area, albeit at the expense of other technologies.

Also, have you messed around with the defence values of units to find out what kind of outraging value would make a unit invulnerable to rifle fire?

This may be possible, but like Mitch said, there are a lot of technical problems to figure out even once we can get in the actual model. That said, I'm certain we will eventually have working tanks, and what a day that will be

[B-DizL]

While I assume, the British would recieve superior tanks in terms of stats, and perhaps start out with an extra tech in the line of techs that will be necesary for a tank, a german player who focused on tank technology should be able to easily outpace the British or French in that area, albeit at the expense of other technologies.


This may be possible, but like Mitch said, there are a lot of technical problems to figure out even once we can get in the actual model. That said, I'm certain we will eventually have working tanks, and what a day that will be

Exactly! this should be true of any nation that chooses to focus research and production on tanks

[mAIOR]

Exactly! this should be true of any nation that chooses to focus research and production on tanks

Sure but what I'm saying is the German doctrine was not very tank oriented in fact, the Germans were not very keen on the whole tank issue. Even in the 1918 offensives the Germans didn't consider the use and relevances of the tanks.



Cheers...

[B-DizL]

Sure but what I'm saying is the German doctrine was not very tank oriented in fact, the Germans were not very keen on the whole tank issue. Even in the 1918 offensives the Germans didn't consider the use and relevances of the tanks.



Cheers...

True but we're not going to force the player to make the same bad descisions as the german army, thats the whole reason this is fun to play, you can change history and make germany the tank power house it should have been.

[Whukid]

If you guys need help with 2D technical stuff/.dds files, I can help. The only thing I'm incapable of is doing 3D editing and animations

[mAIOR]

true what I think would work would be less points for germany on that doctrine area. That way research would take more time for tanks hence delaying their introduction. There's a reason things happened like they did in history. I just think that change should be possible albeit at a cost (maybe having to scarify time on another tech and only field light machine guns latter for example).



Cheers...

[B-DizL]

But the reason they didnt make many tanks wasnt because they werent able to or didnt have the designs for tanks, the only real reason is they didnt think they would be very effective so they didnt focus on them, Germany had enough industrial might to be the biggest tank power in the war they just didnt go down that path.

We shouldnt penalize the player for this, if the player wants to role play and not build them so be it but i have a feeling people playing the germans will want to make tanks.

[mAIOR]

Sorry to be a pain (it's your decision after all) but I feel the most realistic way to implement this kind of combat doctrines would be to make countries have small differences. What I'm proposing would basically represent the need to change the way of thinking of the entire German high command into accepting the tank. Sure if you focused you'd be able to build entire tank divisions but you'd have to leave something behind. Same for the allies and other kinds of weapons (for instance stormtroopers and a latter access to machine guns). This, in my opinion, would add depth to the game making factions more unique. you could still form heavy tank regiments should you wish but you'd have to sacrifice something...


Cheers...

[.Mitch.]

I agree with both of you, because you both have extremely valid and important points. The key issue is finding the perfect spot in the middle.

On the one hand the need for the player to be able to play out history as they want to is very important, total war is about re-writing history and not just conforming to it.

But on the other hand there needs to be differences between the nations, mostly so gameplay wise, for those who have played Shogun 2, all the factions have no differences apart from colours and asthetical differences. This ruins the point in going other nations, it will just be the same gameplay again, but from a slightly new start point.

This is a WW1 mod after all, we need some historical accuracy and some attempt to create the setting that was WW1, alongside the battle gameplay.

Russia is a perfect example of how we've really done a good job in creating a faction with a difference while not inhibiting the players decissions, you could play any faction, and still look forward to the different game that Russia would provide. This is what we need to achieve.
We have the very heavy artillery alongside the wave tactics of Russian infantry, which makes for a different style of gameplay not only on the battlefield, but also in the campaign, in what buildings and units and technological focus you chose.

I think it would be a failure on our part as the team if for each campaign a player could follow the same route as any nations. The same old, spam the same tech line, spam the same infantry and arty, grind to victory.
There needs to be the possiblity that the player can go whatever path he wants, however he wants to. But there needs to be reasons within the nations that make it worth while to go a certain route.

[mAIOR]

I agree with both of you, because you both have extremely valid and important points. The key issue is finding the perfect spot in the middle.

On the one hand the need for the player to be able to play out history as they want to is very important, total war is about re-writing history and not just conforming to it.

But on the other hand there needs to be differences between the nations, mostly so gameplay wise, for those who have played Shogun 2, all the factions have no differences apart from colours and asthetical differences. This ruins the point in going other nations, it will just be the same gameplay again, but from a slightly new start point.

This is a WW1 mod after all, we need some historical accuracy and some attempt to create the setting that was WW1, alongside the battle gameplay.

Russia is a perfect example of how we've really done a good job in creating a faction with a difference while not inhibiting the players decissions, you could play any faction, and still look forward to the different game that Russia would provide. This is what we need to achieve.
We have the very heavy artillery alongside the wave tactics of Russian infantry, which makes for a different style of gameplay not only on the battlefield, but also in the campaign, in what buildings and units and technological focus you chose.

I think it would be a failure on our part as the team if for each campaign a player could follow the same route as any nations. The same old, spam the same tech line, spam the same infantry and arty, grind to victory.
There needs to be the possiblity that the player can go whatever path he wants, however he wants to. But there needs to be reasons within the nations that make it worth while to go a certain route.

Yes that's my point exactly. Though we may differ on what should be the advantage/penalty one gets, that's my point. Sure players can go either way but they'll be forced to make choices and possibly some hard ones. For instance, germany focus on tanks could force the player to introduce artillery as advanced as france's latter. That'd be a tough choice to make...
"So do I leave my infantry to suffer wave after wave of attacks with an inferior artillery complement allowing the french to get a fire ratio of 3:1 leading to a possible catastrophy in early war because artillery is - how to put it, oh, I know! - Armageddon BUT, later in the war I can use tanks to fill the gaps and provide a better defence and shortly after getting access to entire tank brigades to form an offensive fist to steamroll all of Europe..."/daydream.
Yeah that's the kind of choice I'd like to make yep... one like that... man I need a cigarette... :p



Cheers...

[King Sama]

Yes, like I said, germany would be penalized for focusing on tanks because it starts out at a disadvantage compared to Britain or France, and in order to gain the highest quality tanks, they will likely have to sacrifice advantages in other categories. Our plan for technology and progression in the mod, is to achieve a selective progress, so that the player will face not only important strategic decisions but consequences for them, and that two campaigns can be radically different depending upon the choices made.

Mitch also brings up a very valid point. We don't want factions to be identical, but we do want them to be able to follow their own paths. Form my perspective, the best way to do this is to simulate as best as possible their starting advantages and disadvantages, but to offer ample opportunity to correct and improve in order to create the player's own history, with different challenges to face depending upon the route.

[mAIOR]

Exactly Keep it up hugs for the team.



Cheers...

[Derpy Hooves]

Are you going to make more grenadier units or give grenades to more units?

[King Sama]

Are you going to make more grenadier units or give grenades to more units?

Yes, I believe in 5.0 most infantry have grenades And the grenades themselves have been given a boost, to increase their usefulness.