Let's talk about the JAPANESE INVASION OF KOREA (Imjin War)

[Erunion Telcontar]

I didn't know much about the Imjin war until I got Shogun and then, as I've been doing since Med II came out, I looked up the history.
Really, the Imjin war would make a great expansion -
the Koreans, good artillery, great archers, not-great melee units and not a good starting position. Excellent navy.
Japan? Same as it is now in Shogun, just unified.
China? Decent professional troops, but fighting to help somebody else, not for their own sake.

All in all, it would be a great conflict to play!
Now, I know a lot of people have said that Sega won't allow an Imjin war expansion/DLC, but how accurate is this? Do we know this, or is it just conjecture?

On Hideyoshi - I think his reasoning behind the invasion is pretty easy to figure out. I have all these "allies", with massive, battle-hardened armies. I just became Shogun, and I wanna stay that way. How do I achieve this? Easy! You mend a broken kingdom the same way you mend a broken sword - put it under fire and hit it with a hammer.
Unfortunately, the fire got put out by the Korean/Chinese navy, and Ieyesu, who stayed home and partied, was able to become Shogun.

[Finnegan]

한국이 모국이지만 별 문제될 것은 없습니다.
でも,日本に好感を持っているし,日本語もできます。

It wouldn't really matter here.
I am just an American college student majoring in history, and I am very interested in promoting the story of the historically significant period to be better received by people.

I think it kinda does matter, to an extent.

I'm not for one moment suggesting you definitely are wrong, you've clearly read up. I just tire of seeing typically British and American young people on both this forum and the official one ranting on about this expansion without an understanding of the political context.

Now, fair enough, clearly you know a little more than most (though I think studying something from afar is a little different to living it) but it's still a somewhat dangerous position to be being so skeptical about any political or cultural impact whilst sitting tens of thousands of miles away, having been raised by and indoctrinated into another culture entirely.

For me, I just don't really see that the demand for such an expansion is so great that it necessitates it's creation despite any political friction. With a near endless supply of war and devastation the world over, CA are at liberty to pick and choose and if their publisher has a quiet word in their ear and says "we don't think so, this time" I wouldn't expect them to fight too hard.

There may be a sense of Japanese censorship here, sure. But given that Sino-Japanese and Korean-Japanese relations are still genuinely plagued, on both a political and man-in-the-street level, by their military history I really do think those wounds need to be healed by progressive work between the nations themselves, not some Western-made computer game that (ultimately) exploits war for entertainment.

[visser300]

To whom who want to play Imjin war:

There is a game called Europa Universali 3: Divide wind. Jap has four clans (far less than TWS2). You unifided Japan and then launch an invasion to Korea. After you conquering half of Japan, Ming will launch its massive land troops to protect Korea. You lose and withdraw your troops to your mother land and pray to god that Ming wont invade you with its massive naval and land troop.

that what happened in my campaign. It's so epicccccc!!! I bet that if CA make added Korea and Ming(just need Manchu provinces). TWS2 would become the best selling title of CA of ALL time. Sorry CA, you missed the chance of taking away of my money due to your stupid polictic.

Really, who really ing care about a war that happened 450 years ago??? Eventually, Korea did win that war. what is the problem with that? Make an expansion that I can invade Korea and beat the hell out of Ming. I will pay a lot of money for that.

[Kalnaf]

I think it kinda does matter, to an extent.

I'm not for one moment suggesting you definitely are wrong, you've clearly read up. I just tire of seeing typically British and American young people on both this forum and the official one ranting on about this expansion without an understanding of the political context.

Now, fair enough, clearly you know a little more than most (though I think studying something from afar is a little different to living it) but it's still a somewhat dangerous position to be being so skeptical about any political or cultural impact whilst sitting tens of thousands of miles away, having been raised by and indoctrinated into another culture entirely.

For me, I just don't really see that the demand for such an expansion is so great that it necessitates it's creation despite any political friction. With a near endless supply of war and devastation the world over, CA are at liberty to pick and choose and if their publisher has a quiet word in their ear and says "we don't think so, this time" I wouldn't expect them to fight too hard.

There may be a sense of Japanese censorship here, sure. But given that Sino-Japanese and Korean-Japanese relations are still genuinely plagued, on both a political and man-in-the-street level, by their military history I really do think those wounds need to be healed by progressive work between the nations themselves, not some Western-made computer game that (ultimately) exploits war for entertainment.

Seeing your concern here, I have decided to be honest with you.

All right, I have received exactly 12 years of Korean public education since kindergarten, before moving onto explore larger academic opportunities presented by the Americans.

During that 12 years, the subject of history was the most influential in shaping my mindset and outlook.
Yes, some of that education naturally promoted anti-Japanese feelings, but, as I was exposed more and more to history books and media, I was somewhat able to look outside from a typically nationalistic perspective.
That is perhaps why you thought I was neither Korean or Japanese.

Having said that, let me tell you something.

Korean-Japanese relationship isn't all that bad as you might see. Yes, the Japanese Government hasn't fully recognized its responsibilities for the atrocities committed in Korea, while middle school history textbook is packed with lies. Yet, the younger generations of Koreans and Japanese are much closer together than they were a decade ago. The TV drama about Imjin War which I talked about in the first page, was indeed well-received even in Japan. Do you know how much time Japanese people spend watching Korean Dramas? And, on the other side of the sea, Korean youngsters are bombarded by Japanese anime, manga, and video games.

Now, historical awareness is a key point here. A computer game that explore such a significant moment in both Japanese and Korean history, can only be beneficial to that awareness.



.....

Wait a sec. This discussion is heading to a strange direction.

I did state in my first post;

Hey guys, I am writing this thread because I wanted to raise public awareness about quite interesting moment of warfare in North Eastern Asian History

Well, even if that doesn't happen in any near future, I still wanted to rant something about that war which is surprisingly little known outside Asia.
Yet, it was a war of great historical significance and importance. So, it wouldn't hurt to talk about it, would it?

Please understand that what I am trying to do here is NOT

"HEY PEOPLE WE GOTTA HAVE THAT BLOODY EXPANSION PACK"

BUT

"HEY PEOPLE THOUGH THIS IS NEGLECTED ISNT THIS STILL AWESOME"

[DarkArk]

でも,日本に好感を持っているし,日本語もできます。

I'm pretty sure you used a translator for that. I'd correct it but I don't have Japanese installed on this computer. Sorry, something like five years of studying Japanese, I like to brag a little ;P

Anyway I really don't think doing the Imijin war would be that big of a deal. In terms of history it's the logical expansion campaign.

understanding of the political context.

I'm perfectly well aware of the political context. I've been studying and paying attention to this sort of thing for a good decade now. (South) Korean-Japanese relations are the best they've ever been in the last 400 years. A mutual fear of North Korea and China has seen to that, while both are under the military umbrella of the US. Really at the most you'll get a few Korean and Chinese nationalists making a minor fuss. They do that over everything related to Japanese nationalism in case you were wondering.

Though I personally don't like it, it wouldn't surprise me if SEGA said no.

[Osbot]

I think it kinda does matter, to an extent.

I'm not for one moment suggesting you definitely are wrong, you've clearly read up. I just tire of seeing typically British and American young people on both this forum and the official one ranting on about this expansion without an understanding of the political context.

Now, fair enough, clearly you know a little more than most (though I think studying something from afar is a little different to living it) but it's still a somewhat dangerous position to be being so skeptical about any political or cultural impact whilst sitting tens of thousands of miles away, having been raised by and indoctrinated into another culture entirely.

For me, I just don't really see that the demand for such an expansion is so great that it necessitates it's creation despite any political friction. With a near endless supply of war and devastation the world over, CA are at liberty to pick and choose and if their publisher has a quiet word in their ear and says "we don't think so, this time" I wouldn't expect them to fight too hard.

There may be a sense of Japanese censorship here, sure. But given that Sino-Japanese and Korean-Japanese relations are still genuinely plagued, on both a political and man-in-the-street level, by their military history I really do think those wounds need to be healed by progressive work between the nations themselves, not some Western-made computer game that (ultimately) exploits war for entertainment.

I'm sorry but I have to call this silliness.

Countless wars with far greater implications and death tolls have happened in the last 100 years have been remade in video games hundreds of times.

Let's just look at the big one, WW2, a war launched by Hitler for what we can simplify down into two essential purposes, to exterminate and enslave the Slavs, and to exterminate European Jews.

You can't throw a rock without hitting a WW2 title.

Yet we're supposed to steer clear of any Japanese Korean or Japanese Chinese wars because things are politically sensitive? My advice has to do with tampons. Fact: Virtually all wars up to and including WW2 had extensive atrocities committed on both sides whenever one force came into contact with civilians from the other side.

Give us a worthy expansion, and if the best piece for the period is the Korean invasion, sensitivity or perceived sensitivity over the topic shouldn't hold CA back. In fact it should spur them on, to do it properly with a hope to educate and elicit discourse.

The strategy of pretending it didn't happen and hiding it away is just about the dumbest thing you can do.

Something about those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it.

[Kalnaf]

I'm pretty sure you used a translator for that. I'd correct it but I don't have Japanese installed on this computer. Sorry, something like five years of studying Japanese, I like to brag a little ;P

Anyway I really don't think doing the Imijin war would be that big of a deal. In terms of history it's the logical expansion campaign.

もう一度かんがえてみたら,"好感を持っている"は 少し文法的にあやしいかも...
でもさ, 私も 2年ぐらい日本語を勉強したから,無視しないでくれ. 傷つくから.

[Ying, Duke of Qin]

I'm sorry but I have to call this silliness.

Countless wars with far greater implications and death tolls have happened in the last 100 years have been remade in video games hundreds of times.

Let's just look at the big one, WW2, a war launched by Hitler for what we can simplify down into two essential purposes, to exterminate and enslave the Slavs, and to exterminate European Jews.

You can't throw a rock without hitting a WW2 title.

Yet we're supposed to steer clear of any Japanese Korean or Japanese Chinese wars because things are politically sensitive? My advice has to do with tampons. Fact: Virtually all wars up to and including WW2 had extensive atrocities committed on both sides whenever one force came into contact with civilians from the other side.

Give us a worthy expansion, and if the best piece for the period is the Korean invasion, sensitivity or perceived sensitivity over the topic shouldn't hold CA back. In fact it should spur them on, to do it properly with a hope to educate and elicit discourse.

The strategy of pretending it didn't happen and hiding it away is just about the dumbest thing you can do.

Something about those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it.

The thing is, though, CA can afford to simply "hide it". They don't need to take the risk, and I'd be very surprised if they did end up taking such a risk and putting out an expansion pack detailing the invasion of Korea.

Why should they take the risk themselves? The majority of gamers, I argue, doesn't give a broken katana's worth regarding the "historical" content. They'd be just as happy playing HAWAII: TOTAL WAR or whathaveyou if the game is designed well enough. CA is a gaming company. They're not here to teach you about history. They have no obligation to. They want you to buy their games, not boycott them. With such a title comes with it some very realistic risks - risks that doesn't need to be taken in the first place. You get what I'm getting at?

I don't think anyone's pretending that it didn't happen. Hell, if people are so interested in educating others, perhaps they should consider a mod. I assume you guys are familiar with the Korean: Total War mod that AFAIK, is still floating around, right?

EDIT: Though, admittedly, the most realistic solution is to hire decent script writers from all three factions. I guarantee you if you add an option allowing Korea or Ming China to invade Japan even pirates will gladly shell out money to buy the game for a chance to smash Japan. Though I fear this'll only "increase" the underlying tension.

... If this happens someone need to get a copy of it to Kim Jong Il. I will pay for postage.

[DarkArk]

I stand corrected.

Now the real question is did you have to look up any of those kanji? I know I did. You can never know enough of those.

two essential purposes, to exterminate and enslave the Slavs, and to exterminate European Jews.

Getting revenge for Versailles was also a part of that.

[Kalnaf]

Now, about that 'expansion pack', let me say this.

I seriously doubt that there would be any kind of boycott/political controversy regarding a game about IMJIN WAR. In both Japan and Korea. It's as simple as that.

I am certain, that SEGA's precaution was nothing but an overreaction.

[♔DARTH LEGO♔]

A game about the Japanese conquest of Korea, where the player takes control of a Japanese daimyo and invades Korea, is politically radioactive, and Sega is a Japanese company. End of story.

this might be the perfect reason for them to release it..... really put the boot in so to speak


all round national pride booster...check....
just a video game...check...
damn good, and most logical expansion.....check....

with the Japanese generalised stereotypical fascination for new trends and high end glitzy RPG/fighting games, would they even notice...? I mean beside the hardcore pc niche do they even know about TW my thought is no.....

I am certain, that SEGA's precaution was nothing but an overreaction.

Its amazing how money will help people get over this part...LOL but yes true, i believe complete PR spin, setting the tone for releasing an Historical addition....

"...for the betterment of understanding between our 2 nations blahblahblahblah by teaching our children blah blah"

.....sorry just imagining part of the speech from Sega PR....post release, or maybe they will just dump the responsibility on CA to do, makes more sense and they get to remain neutral......etc etc etc

[PharaohsVizier]

The thing is, though, CA can afford to simply "hide it". They don't need to take the risk, and I'd be very surprised if they did end up taking such a risk and putting out an expansion pack detailing the invasion of Korea.

And what risk is that exactly? Quite honestly, as much as I agree it is insensitive to release such a pack, I can't imagine any action really against SEGA or CA. Maybe a frown here or there, but let's face it, this game isn't really marketed to sell a ton in Korea, and clearly people in the Western world could care less (from the general attitude of this forum), in fact they'd probably be ecstatic.

Countless wars with far greater implications and death tolls have happened in the last 100 years have been remade in video games hundreds of times.

Let's just look at the big one, WW2, a war launched by Hitler for what we can simplify down into two essential purposes, to exterminate and enslave the Slavs, and to exterminate European Jews.

It's the context, not what actually happened. There are a thousand different reasons why Asian conflicts differ from European ones and how much tolerance there is. Asides from just the mindset where Asians like to keep track of history and tradition, passing personal accounts down generation after generation, I think politically it makes sense too. European countries mixed quite a bit, there's a lot of contact. As such there is a lot of room for forgiveness. However, China, Japan, Korea, these are all very distinct cultures, and while they interacted, they never really mixed the same way European countries have.

Yes, some of that education naturally promoted anti-Japanese feelings, but, as I was exposed more and more to history books and media, I was somewhat able to look outside from a typically nationalistic perspective.

Isn't that precisely the point then? For the masses they nurture anti-Japanese attitudes. It's easy for us to scoff at this from a Western perspective, and no doubt part of your exposure is this perspective, which makes you different from the average Korean.

[Kalnaf]

@BayonetFodder-San // Haha, that was good.

@PharaohsVizier // You know, in that case, many 'average' Koreans you perceive, would absolutely be delighted to play as Korea and invade Japan.

Hmm, thinking about it, its actually what Korean Gamers do when they play "Superpower 2" you know.

[GambleFish]

Chinese dont like talking about this, the japanese were very cruel and killed many children and women.. cutting off their heads and horrible things.this is what my old shifu-sifu(teacher) told me anyway.

And the mongols raped women and burned villages (and cities) all over Asia & Europe, what's your point? This isn't about avoiding violent content, it's about SEGA being politically correct to the point of silliness.

[Ying, Duke of Qin]

And what risk is that exactly? Quite honestly, as much as I agree it is insensitive to release such a pack, I can't imagine any action really against SEGA or CA. Maybe a frown here or there, but let's face it, this game isn't really marketed to sell a ton in Korea, and clearly people in the Western world could care less (from the general attitude of this forum), in fact they'd probably be ecstatic.

If the frowns occur on the right people's faces ... I'll simply say that westerners often underestimate what I call "rampant nationalism," which can be triggered by the smallest of things. Internet vigilantism is pretty strong in both Korea and China still.

I mean, I hate to bring up other examples, but how well do you think people will receive a World War II Total War? To my knowledge, I don't think it's been done yet, but can you imagine the backlash? As interesting as it may be to some who wish to play as Nazi Germany and crush the world beneath its iron bootheels, I'm not sure if it'd be in their (CA's) best interests. At best, nothing happens, they sell stuff. At worst, they get boycotted and lose sales. The reality is probably somewhere in between - but is it worth it when they can pursue another venue or concept that'll net them more money?

A Korean War expansion would be something just like it, maybe on a smaller scale. I'm not trying to dissuade of anyone of their opinions here. You have yours, and I have mine. The topic, however, is sensitive enough to warrant caution - and I believe that caution is the right way to approach it.

And the mongols raped women and burned villages (and cities) all over Asia & Europe, what's your point? This isn't about avoiding violent content, it's about SEGA being politically correct to the point of silliness.

Er ... Mongols =/= Chinese. ):

Perhaps to you it feels silly. I'm not even Korean, and I feel that the move is prudent. In what situation, in your mind, would political correctness be appropriate? Or do you feel that political correctness is an overrated concept anyways?

[Kalnaf]

I mean, I hate to bring up other examples, but how well do you think people will receive a World War II Total War? To my knowledge, I don't think it's been done yet, but can you imagine the backlash? As interesting as it may be to some who wish to play as Nazi Germany and crush the world beneath its iron bootheels, I'm not sure if it'd be in their (CA's) best interests. At best, nothing happens, they sell stuff. At worst, they get boycotted and lose sales. The reality is probably somewhere in between - but is it worth it when they can pursue another venue or concept that'll net them more money?

How many times must I repeat myself?

IT IS A DIFFERENT SUBJECT MATTER

20th century nationalism-driven total warfare ≠ 16th century conflicts


ps. And obviously you have not played many Empire-building type of games.
ps2. You see, there is this game called "Axis and Allies". I wonder if you ever heard about it. Oh I am sure that game is really obscure and not known

Okay, as I have stated in the title of this thread, I shall talk a bit more about the war, if anyone's interested.
(Though it seems not too many people are interested about the period)

Now, we all know that Sengoku-period Japanese Armours are "badass"/intimidating/"cool".




But I think Korean (Joseon) army's armours during the same period, also look quite appealing.






And below is the armour of the famous admiral Yi.




Quite unique and distinctive in style; similar, but wholly different from Chinese armours.


Usually, Korean armours were mix of leather/chian/splint mail.

It is believed that only NCO/officers and above (or heavy cavalry) wore heavy armours, while ordinary infantrymen wore ordinary uniforms with little protection-

black uniforms which were similar to the photo images below.






Yet, recent studies suggest that lowly infantrymen also wore some sort of protective clothings.

[hyzhenhok]

@PharaohsVizier // You know, in that case, many 'average' Koreans you perceive, would absolutely be delighted to play as Korea and invade Japan.

The point I was trying to make earlier is that it seems extremely unlikely you would be able to play as Korea.

Looking at the overall theme of the game, and the way the mechanics work...an Imjin War where the player plays as Japan, sure, it could work. But Korea probably wouldn't be playable; if it was, you'd need a complete revamp of the mechanics or else you'd see Korean Samurai running around, Korean land holdings being distributed and working exactly the same as Japanese, etc. It is reasonable to assume that any Shogun 2 expansion that pits Japanese armies against foreign armies, the focus will be on controlling the Japanese. If they do an expansion based on a theoretical Spanish invasion of Japan, the focus will certainly be on the Japanese defenders, not on the foreigners. The same applies to the Imjin war.

This is why it would be a little more insensitive than just any old game about the Imjin Wars. It'd be a game specifically about recreating the first Japanese rape of Korea, with the player at the helm. It would be the magnification, attention on that specific detail, that would be controversial enough for Sega to veto it.

Which is why my suggested solution would be to make an Alexander-the-Great style with a larger scope, with the Player (standing in for Hideyoshi) trying to fight his way to Beijing. Hideyoshi lost to the Koreans; can the Player overcome them, the Manchus and the weakened remnants of the Ming? Epic.

And it has the advantage of not focusing on the Japanese conquest of Korea. It has more of a historical fiction or fantasy to it, which is good for shrugging off controversy.

TLDR: I don't think CA is interested in an Imjim War game where the focus is on the player taking control of Koreans, especially not as an expansion to a game called Shogun. The focus would be on the Japanese side of things, which is why it would be more controversial and why Sega has decided to have them skip it.

[Kalnaf]

I don't quite see how "Korea probably wouldn't be playable" in the possible expansion pack design.
I don't understand your point. Maybe you and I are thinking in very different perspectives.

There is nothing set for the possible expansion pack design, right? And-
if there had been any plans for the Imjin expansion pack, which there haven't, or not necessarily, or I'm not at to say whether there have, there would have been a project team which, had it existed, on which I cannot comment, would now have been disbanded, if it had existed, and the members returned to their original departments, if indeed there had been any such members.

Or, are you one of such members?

[hyzhenhok]

I don't quite see how "Korea probably wouldn't be playable" in the possible expansion pack design.
I don't understand your point. Maybe you and I are thinking in very different perspectives.

There is nothing set for the possible expansion pack design, right? And-
if there had been any plans for the Imjin expansion pack, which there haven't, or not necessarily, or I'm not at to say whether there have, there would have been a project team which, had it existed, on which I cannot comment, would now have been disbanded, if it had existed, and the members returned to their original departments, if indeed there had been any such members.

Or, are you one of such members?

It's really pretty simple. An expansion pack is additional content back onto the original game; the gameplay would of course be based on the original Shogun 2. The original Shogun 2, which is exclusively about Japan. I don't see how there can be any doubt that in any expansion, the focus will continue to be on Japan.

And think of, for example, the Alexander the Great expansion for Rome: Total War. Only Macedon was playable. There were many other new factions with new units, but none of them were playable. The focus was on Macedon. This seems perfectly comparable to the Imjin war: it should be all about the Japanese invasion of Korea. That's where the show is.

They simply wouldn't be able to focus on Korea, or the game would no longer be Shogun. They'd probably make a point out of the historical naval battle being one where you ahistorically defeat Admiral Yi, actually.

I think they would want to focus on getting the Japan part of it right. They certainly wouldn't make Koreans playable just so you and some others could get a kick out of the absolutely preposterous idea of a Korean invasion of Japan.

Besides, isn't it safe to assume CA would err on the side of less work? And that would be leaving Korea unplayable.

[Kalnaf]

I still don't quite see where you're getting at.

Why am I still playing as Britain in NTW?