Japanese slingers in the Sengoku period?

[Daqin]

This is something I've wondered about ever since reading Yoshikawa Eiji's Taiko. An account of the battle of Mikatagahara is given in the novel, and there's a reference to a corp of the Takeda army called the "Mizumata." Here's an exerpt:

"Neither army had time to send their gunners to the front, so the Takeda sent the Mizumata--lightly armored samurai armed with stone slings--to the front line. The stones they shot fell like rain. Facing them were the forces of Sakai Tadatsugu, and behind them the reinforcements from the Oda clan. Tadatsugu was on horseback, clicking his tongue in annoyance.

The stones raining down on them from the front line of the Kai army were hitting his horse and making it go wild. And not only his horse. The horses of the mounted men who were waiting for their chance behind the spearmen reared and became so panicked that they broke formation.

The spearmen waited for orders from Tadatsugu, who had been holding them back with hoarse cries: 'Not yet! Wait until I give the word!'

The slingers on the front line of the enemy had played the part of army sappers opening up an avenue of attack for the main force. Therefore, although the Mizumata corps was not particularly fearsome, the hand-picked troops behind them were waiting for a chance. Here were the banners of the Yamagata, Naito, and Oyamada corps, famed for their valor even within the Kai army."

Now, this is the only reference of any kind I've ever seen on "Mizumata," and since this is from a work of historical fiction, it may very well be nothing more than that. I am still curious, however, as to whether or not anyone else does have any information on the subject or knows where to find it. I wouldn't think that slings would still be used in battle in 16th century Japan, but I still wonder if the term was properly translated and/or romanized (I am reading it in English after all), because I can't find any earlier references to Japanese slingers, either.

Anyway, this is probably a wild goose chase, but any info at all would be greatly appreciated.

[Ying, Duke of Qin]

Ah! This we actually have historical evidence for. In the 信長公記 (Shincho Koki? No idea what it is in English), we get some hilarious background. If we trust the account of this first-hand source, then yes, it is exactly as you've read. These dudes threw ... rocks at the other army. They weren't slingers, per se, but they did throw them.

The particular art of throwing rocks was termed 印地(いんじ). Literally, "printing ground." You can probably figure out why it's called that. A good stone thrower can probably print kanji on the ground if he wished. Yes, you heard it right. Turns out that stone-skipping was a common sport - it's called "石合戰". Literally, "rock wars." It's exactly what it says on the tin. Peasants threw rocks at each other for sport, and it wasn't banned until maybe one of the Hojos - I wanna say Hojo Yasutoki - banned it in around 1200s. Shingen, being the smart cookie he was, thought that these guys could be sent out forward to disrupt enemy formation, which is what they did - the Tokugawa army was forced to charge forward (how'd you like it if folks chucked rocks at you, and you had no guns and little crappy bows that couldn't shoot them dead enough?) and preemptively begun the slaughter that was Mikatagahara.

Though, because of the lack of historical evidence regarding some sort of siege weapon or even sling, we usually assume that these stone-throwers threw rocks by arm. I've just went through my own sources. I found only one other instance of a "slinger" type of ashigaru. This particular type of "slinger" used cloth that was maybe up to 1.5m in length, with a net on the other side. They were used for castle defense.

Does this help at all?

[Daqin]

That's both fascinating and very helpful, thank you. I wasn't thinking in terms of rock throwing, that may be why I kept coming up blank when trying to research it. Any sources you could recommend in English (as I unfortunately can't read Japanese)?

[Ying, Duke of Qin]

That's both fascinating and very helpful, thank you. I wasn't thinking in terms of rock throwing, that may be why I kept coming up blank when trying to research it. Any sources you could recommend in English (as I unfortunately can't read Japanese)?

Unfortunately, there aren't any sources I can recommend in English short of the document I've recommended - I usually go straight for the kill, so to speak. There's a reason why historians question the accuracy of such a report still. On one hand, we have at least two first-hand sources (the one I cited is one, the History of the Takeda is another) proving that it existed. On the other hand, it is extremely difficult to look into, as these slingers were more-or-less tales of legend, much like the idea that Kenshin was female or that Tokugawa was really a ninja.

I'd be extremely cautious of any source giving you % of damage caused is due to X, Y, or Z.

[furinkazan]

Take a look at this, it may give you an answer:

http://forums.samurai-archives.com/v...hlight=slinger

[Daqin]

Excellent, thank you as well. There seems to be a lot of controversy about this. Stones were evidently used in some battles, but how they were used (thrown, slung, improvised blunt melee weapons) and how common they were seems to be up in the air.

Unfortunately, there aren't any sources I can recommend in English short of the document I've recommended - I usually go straight for the kill, so to speak. There's a reason why historians question the accuracy of such a report still. On one hand, we have at least two first-hand sources (the one I cited is one, the History of the Takeda is another) proving that it existed. On the other hand, it is extremely difficult to look into, as these slingers were more-or-less tales of legend, much like the idea that Kenshin was female or that Tokugawa was really a ninja.

I'd be extremely cautious of any source giving you % of damage caused is due to X, Y, or Z.

I understand, its just interesting, and I was having trouble finding information on the subject period, whether authentic or dubious. Again, thanks for the info.

[Dirtnapninja]

Don't underestimate slings. I dunno how much the japanese employed slingers, but a good slinger can throw a bullet for 400 meters with enough force to shatter your skull.

[Daqin]

Don't underestimate slings. I dunno how much the japanese employed slingers, but a good slinger can throw a bullet for 400 meters with enough force to shatter your skull.

There's no dispute about that, this is just a question of time and place.

Basically, from what I've read, there's enough information to suggest that stones were sometimes used in Sengoku battles, but there's not enough evidence to confirm how, when, where, how frequently, etc. Regarding slings, the lack of surviving slings or period depictions of either samurai or ashigaru using them suggests that they either weren't used, or were at least very rare. If that's the case, then they were likely thrown, or perhaps dropped from above by siege defenders. And of course, they could always be weapons of opportunity.

One of the more plausible scenarios is that ashigaru archers and arquebusiers would resort to throwing rocks once they ran out of ammunition. There are some suggestions that they may have carried a type of sling or sling staff specifically for the purpose, but I don't think there's any way to verify this.

[Lord Baal]

Some where in the pages of Internet there's a table where casualties of a lot of battles of this period are categorized. If I remember correctly, a lot of them where because of rocks. However if this is just for slinger or rocks hurled from castle walls and/or used as maces in short combat spaces me.

[Ying, Duke of Qin]

Some where in the pages of Internet there's a table where casualties of a lot of battles of this period are categorized. If I remember correctly, a lot of them where because of rocks. However if this is just for slinger or rocks hurled from castle walls and/or used as maces in short combat spaces me.

It makes me wonder how such tables are calculated or documented. Are these statistics estimates or were there some samurai who went outside, counted bodies, and meticulously analyzed every single wound on every single corpse to make such grossly generalizing guesses?

Basically, from what I've read, there's enough information to suggest that stones were sometimes used in Sengoku battles, but there's not enough evidence to confirm how, when, where, how frequently, etc. Regarding slings, the lack of surviving slings or period depictions of either samurai or ashigaru using them suggests that they either weren't used, or were at least very rare. If that's the case, then they were likely thrown, or perhaps dropped from above by siege defenders. And of course, they could always be weapons of opportunity.

Organizing "slingers" in such a manner can be considered a special occurrence. I would haphazard a guess that ashigaru would use whatever they get their hands on, and we can ignore sieges altogether in such a discussion because stones are common items to throw at people in a siege - you'll notice that there are small cracks on battlements even to today that were explicitly designed to store stones in case of a siege.

Here, however, the Takeda had a specific brigade who "specialized" in throwing stones. It IS recorded in the Koyo Gunkan - though again, the Koyo Gunkan also recorded Kenshin and Shingen's 1v1 duel, so its historicity can be questioned. Neither the Koyo Gunkan nor the Shincho Koki mention any tools or arms used, so it is highly suggestive that these stone throwers threw by hand - see my previous post regarding an explanation and historical background for why the trick came about.

Given that the season was rainy (bad for bows), and that the effective killing range of the bows at the time ranged from 20-80 meters, it seem plausible that they could get close enough to throw rocks at the other side. An average rock thrower can throw up to 20-40 meter with some degree of accuracy.

One of the more plausible scenarios is that ashigaru archers and arquebusiers would resort to throwing rocks once they ran out of ammunition. There are some suggestions that they may have carried a type of sling or sling staff specifically for the purpose, but I don't think there's any way to verify this.

Siegeworks as a whole is considered to be uncommon, and the only reference to slings I could find was the curious staff I cited above. Sorry.

[Lord Baal]

It makes me wonder how such tables are calculated or documented. Are these statistics estimates or were there some samurai who went outside, counted bodies, and meticulously analyzed every single wound on every single corpse to make such grossly generalizing guesses?

Actually I think they done that... however, as I always say, don't take my word for granted, I'm not the bearer of the irrevocable truth.

Here it it's I found it:
Budo Perspectives, ed. Alexander Bennett; Chapter 7 - Budo as a Concept: An analysis of budo's characteristics. Irie Kohei. (This work cites the following japanese publication: Suzuki Masaya. banana no kubitori: Sengoku kassen isetsu Swords and head taking: Another view of Sengoku period battles. Heibonsha, 2000.)

"According to Suzuki Masaya, in battles from the mid-fourteenth to the mid-fifteenth centuries out of 554 examples, the percentage of casualties caused by arrows was 86%, sword cuts 8.3%, rocks 2.7%, spears and stab woounds 1.1%. From the mid-fifteenth to the mid-sixteenth centuries 1461 examples are analyzed with arrow wounds at 41.3%, guns 19.6%, spears and stab wounds 17.9%, rocks 10.3%, and 3% for swords."

If this is true, 10.3% out of rocks it's a important figure.

[Daqin]

It makes me wonder how such tables are calculated or documented. Are these statistics estimates or were there some samurai who went outside, counted bodies, and meticulously analyzed every single wound on every single corpse to make such grossly generalizing guesses?

Organizing "slingers" in such a manner can be considered a special occurrence. I would haphazard a guess that ashigaru would use whatever they get their hands on, and we can ignore sieges altogether in such a discussion because stones are common items to throw at people in a siege - you'll notice that there are small cracks on battlements even to today that were explicitly designed to store stones in case of a siege.

Here, however, the Takeda had a specific brigade who "specialized" in throwing stones. It IS recorded in the Koyo Gunkan - though again, the Koyo Gunkan also recorded Kenshin and Shingen's 1v1 duel, so its historicity can be questioned. Neither the Koyo Gunkan nor the Shincho Koki mention any tools or arms used, so it is highly suggestive that these stone throwers threw by hand - see my previous post regarding an explanation and historical background for why the trick came about.

Given that the season was rainy (bad for bows), and that the effective killing range of the bows at the time ranged from 20-80 meters, it seem plausible that they could get close enough to throw rocks at the other side. An average rock thrower can throw up to 20-40 meter with some degree of accuracy.

I read somewhere (I'll try to find it again) that in the case of the Takeda, Oyamada Nobushige was said to have had a specialized corp of either stone throwers or slingers, numbering somewhere between 300 and 800 men. If that was true, then they might have been the ones used at Mikatagahara, and it would furthermore make sense to use stones as missiles in place of bows or matchlocks in wet weather. That's all speculation, though, and the reference to Nobushige's specialized stone projectile corp probably is as well.

Siegeworks as a whole is considered to be uncommon, and the only reference to slings I could find was the curious staff I cited above. Sorry.

Its far more likely that they threw them. Slinging isn't a skill you can learn over night, anyway; its doubtful that ashigaru would either have either had the skill or be trained in it when teaching them to use an arquebus was so much quicker and easier. Actual slings or sling staves were almost certainly rarities.

[IGdood]

Interesting find. I might have to mod in a slinger unit (Firebomb animation + Matchlock Projectile)

[Alkaline Earth]

Interesting find. I might have to mod in a slinger unit (Firebomb animation + Matchlock Projectile)

[Hojo Soun]

This is actually pretty cool. Harassing or provoking the enemy to charge or wittling down a formation can create some interesting maneuvers. A unit advancing or retreating too far from their side's front can permit one to penetrate or out flank the opposing force. Tactically, this could be useful. Gap exploitation FTW.
Other cultures used slinger-type forces. Why not the Japanese?