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  1. #1
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Minn Shoot first ask questions later bill.

    http://minnesota.publicradio.org/dis...sota-gun-laws/

    Critics of the bill describe it as "shoot first." Supporters say it's a self-defense bill.

    The proposal is based on the Castle Doctrine, a legal doctrine which allows a person to use deadly force against an intruder in his or her home in self-defense. Many states, including Minnesota, have such laws.

    But supporters of the bill say the Castle Doctrine doesn't go far enough. The bill would allow a person to shoot a trespasser who is outdoors on a patio, porch or garage -- as long as the defender has a reasonable fear for his or her safety.
    Ever since the 3 strikes law passed in California I always tell myself "Find out who supports a bill and why and you will know if that law is good for the state or someone else".

    The 3 Strikes law sent more people to prison for smaller crimes, mostly to private prisons run by private corporations.

    This law or bill will allow more people to purchase guns and that benefits the NRA and gun shop owners.

    But worst of all is the right to shoot anyone who steps on your property and then get away Scott free because you were in fear of your life. I'm sorry but if some granny shoots a postman or a letter carrier or just some dark skin boy selling chocolates we should feel sorry for the granny or paranoid sucker who decided to shoot first instead of see who it is. This law or bill will shield gun owners who kill or wound incompetently.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    St. Paul, Minn. — A House committee on Thursday approved a bill that would make significant changes to Minnesota gun laws.

    While the bill covers several different areas, debate focused on when it's legal for someone to shoot another person in self-defense.

    Critics of the bill describe it as "shoot first." Supporters say it's a self-defense bill.

    The proposal is based on the Castle Doctrine, a legal doctrine which allows a person to use deadly force against an intruder in his or her home in self-defense. Many states, including Minnesota, have such laws.

    But supporters of the bill say the Castle Doctrine doesn't go far enough. The bill would allow a person to shoot a trespasser who is outdoors on a patio, porch or garage -- as long as the defender has a reasonable fear for his or her safety.

    Members of the House Public Safety committee listened to critics and supporters who had more sensational anecdotes than statistics to bolster their testimony.

    Heather Martens is the director of an antigun violence advocacy group. Martens, who opposes the bill, told the story of a teenage girl in Ohio who was mistaken for a trespasser in 2006.

    "She was 17 when she and her friends went looking for ghosts near Allen Davis' house. Davis' house was the local haunted house, or so the kids thought. That night Davis heard a noise outside but couldn't see anything so he pointed his rifle out the window and fired."

    Martens said the girl was hit in the head. She survived the gunshot, and the shooter went to jail -- because Ohio didn't have a law like the one being proposed for Minnesota. Martens said states that have what she called 'shoot first' laws allow people to get away with shooting and sometimes killing innocent people.

    But supporters of the bill offered anecdotes of their own.

    Eric Pekeiser conducts training courses for people who've applied for conceal carry permits. He told the story of a permit holder who was being assaulted on his front lawn by two bigger men. Pekeiser said the man pulled his pistol and the two attackers ran away. Then the man called 911.

    "St. Paul police showed up and immediately arrested him at gunpoint," Pekeiser said. "Searched him, handcuffed him, put him in a squad car. He spent three days in the Ramsey County jail with no access to an attorney -- no medications -- which were necessary for a medical condition he had -- sharing a cell with an accused criminal."

    The bill's sponsor, Republican Rep. Tony Cornish of Good Thunder, said critics are making the same kind of dire predictions that they used to oppose the law that allows Minnesotans who qualify to carry a concealed weapon.

    "I think the same thing is happening here," Cornish said. "A lot of hoopla. A lot of claims. A lot of absurdities. picking out a tragic case here, a tragic case there, thinking it's going to happen carte blanche across the state. If this passes, eventually, I believe the same thing will happen -- the Personal Protection Act -- a year or two from now we'll sit back and wonder, what was all the fuss about?"

    The bill would also change other state gun laws.

    It would increase the firearm purchase permit expiration period from one year to five years. It would honor concealed-carry permits from other states in Minnesota, and it would restrict law enforcement from seizing firearms from people during natural disasters. (Supporters of the bill say following the Hurricane Katrina disaster, local police illegally confiscated firearms from citizens.)

    Perhaps the least controversial portion of the proposed law would increase the amount of information the state provides to the National Instant Criminal Background check system. Supporters say this provision strengthens existing measures designed to keep people who are ineligible to purchase guns from buying them.

    The bill doesn't have a Senate companion. But sponsor Cornish expects one soon.

  2. #2
    kentuckybandit's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Minn Shoot first ask questions later bill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post

    This law or bill will allow more people to purchase guns and that benefits the NRA and gun shop owners.

    I don't really see how this bill will promote the sale of guns, or allow more people to purchase them. Since Minnesota already has the Castle Doctrine on the books if you wanted a gun to defend your home you would already have one.

    That being said, this law is definitely pushing the bounds of necessity if not hopped over already. I completely understand and agree with the right to kill when your home has been invaded, but the right to kill on your yard or patio simply opens the possibility for way more harm than any possible good.

    Oh I also like that scare story of the man who was assaulted on his front lawn. Sounds more like overzealous and incompetent police than any real problem that needs remedying with a bill that lets you kill anywhere on your property...
    Last edited by kentuckybandit; May 09, 2011 at 05:59 PM.



  3. #3
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Minn Shoot first ask questions later bill.

    Quote Originally Posted by kentuckybandit View Post
    I don't really see how this bill will promote the sale of guns, or allow more people to purchase them. Since Minnesota already has the Castle Doctrine on the books if you wanted a gun to defend your home you would already have one.

    That being said, this law is definitely pushing the bounds of necessity if not hopped over already. I completely understand and agree with the right to kill when your home has been invaded, but the right to kill on your yard or patio simply opens the possibility for way more harm than any possible good.

    Oh I also like that scare story of the man who was assaulted on his front lawn. Sounds more like overzealous and incompetent police than any real problem that needs remedying with a bill that lets you kill anywhere on your property...
    The bill would also change other state gun laws.

    It would increase the firearm purchase permit expiration period from one year to five years. It would honor concealed-carry permits from other states in Minnesota, and it would restrict law enforcement from seizing firearms from people during natural disasters. (Supporters of the bill say following the Hurricane Katrina disaster, local police illegally confiscated firearms from citizens.)

  4. #4
    kentuckybandit's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Minn Shoot first ask questions later bill.

    Ah. Here I can just go see the fat guy with the gray Cadillac at the flee market and purchase my iron that way, strait out the trunk



  5. #5

    Default Re: Minn Shoot first ask questions later bill.

    Oklahoma has a similar law, except with a cooler name. Its the "Make my day" law around these parts.

  6. #6
    CamilleBonparte's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Minn Shoot first ask questions later bill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cooraan View Post
    Oklahoma has a similar law, except with a cooler name. Its the "Make my day" law around these parts.
    That is just freaking awesome.
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  7. #7
    HissingNewt's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Minn Shoot first ask questions later bill.

    To be honest, I don't see a problem with any of the other provisions you listed. The outside the house thing is a bad idea, but not the other ones.
    "Hullabaloo, caneck! Caneck!"

  8. #8
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Minn Shoot first ask questions later bill.

    Yeah I just didnt see anything else that would encourage people to buy guns, Im stumped on that one.

  9. #9
    Border Patrol's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Minn Shoot first ask questions later bill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    http://minnesota.publicradio.org/dis...sota-gun-laws/


    Ever since the 3 strikes law passed in California I always tell myself "Find out who supports a bill and why and you will know if that law is good for the state or someone else".

    The 3 Strikes law sent more people to prison for smaller crimes, mostly to private prisons run by private corporations.

    This law or bill will allow more people to purchase guns and that benefits the NRA and gun shop owners.

    But worst of all is the right to shoot anyone who steps on your property and then get away Scott free because you were in fear of your life. I'm sorry but if some granny shoots a postman or a letter carrier or just some dark skin boy selling chocolates we should feel sorry for the granny or paranoid sucker who decided to shoot first instead of see who it is. This law or bill will shield gun owners who kill or wound incompetently.
    Your thread title assumes that American police don't already shoot first and ask questions later.
    Proud Nerdimus Maximus of the Trench Coat Mafia.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Minn Shoot first ask questions later bill.

    Hmm... So those annoying jehova witnesses are in for a rude surprise soon i take it


    And since when did minnasota start going all libertarian on us?

  11. #11
    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Minn Shoot first ask questions later bill.

    But worst of all is the right to shoot anyone who steps on your property and then get away Scott free because you were in fear of your life. I'm sorry but if some granny shoots a postman or a letter carrier or just some dark skin boy selling chocolates we should feel sorry for the granny or paranoid sucker who decided to shoot first instead of see who it is. This law or bill will shield gun owners who kill or wound incompetently.
    uh . .

    The bill would allow a person to shoot a trespasser who is outdoors on a patio, porch or garage -- as long as the defender has a reasonable fear for his or her safety.
    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.

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  12. #12

    Default Re: Minn Shoot first ask questions later bill.

    Florida did this already.

    And since when did minnasota start going all libertarian on us?
    Jesse Ventura?

    TBH they are a weird state, their democratic party isn't even the democratic party even though it is.
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  13. #13
    xcorps's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Minn Shoot first ask questions later bill.

    This law or bill will allow more people to purchase guns and that benefits the NRA and gun shop owners.
    Could you cut and past or link to the bill, specifically where it says "more people are allowed to buy guns".

    But worst of all is the right to shoot anyone who steps on your property and then get away Scott free because you were in fear of your life
    Let's do away with the phony fear mongering please. Hyperbole, with your tea?


    reasonable.
    Try it sometime. Your entire premise is just smack full of fail.
    "Every idea is an incitement. It offers itself for belief and if believed it is acted on unless some other belief outweighs it or some failure of energy stifles the movement at its birth. The only difference between the expression of an opinion and an incitement in the narrower sense is the speaker's enthusiasm for the result. Eloquence may set fire to reason." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.

  14. #14
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Minn Shoot first ask questions later bill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big War Bird View Post
    uh . .
    Quote Originally Posted by xcorps View Post
    Could you cut and past or link to the bill, specifically where it says "more people are allowed to buy guns".
    Dont have the bill on me, I was only repeating what I read in an article. Ill drop that line of debate if you do.

    Let's do away with the phony fear mongering please. Hyperbole, with your tea?
    Talk to the NRA about that then...
    Fears rise that Democrats will assault Second Amendment rights
    NRA plans $40M fall blitz targeting Obama
    A recent mailing from the president of the National Rifle Association to its members says that Barack Obama wants to ban the possession of handguns...
    ...according to gun store owners around the nation who describe a wave of buyers concerned that an Obama administration will curtail their right to bear arms.

    Extremist NRA propaganda - Source

    Quote from a script meant to introduce Wayne LaPierre to a conference:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    As billionaires buy the laws and lawmakers they want…
    as bureaucrats conduct personal crusades ..
    as zealots indoctrinate our kids …
    as criminal gangs infest our neighborhoods ..
    as the U.N. applies global pressure …
    and as anti-gun forces control the U.S. House and Senate
    … if an anti-gun president occupies the White House …
    then the perfect storm is upon us.

    Its arrival will be hastened by a terrorist attack — which experts say is inevitable.

    Then, the final disarmament of law-abiding Americans will take place beneath the shroud of anti-terrorism legislation.

    Try it sometime. Your entire premise is just smack full of fail.
    Reasonable is so vague... what exactly is reasonable if a old paranoid fool shoots some kids playing in his yard when its dark? Reasonable cause if he was wrong he would be dead???

  15. #15

    Default Re: Minn Shoot first ask questions later bill.

    I agree the law can be possibly exploited, but on the other hand I don't blame someone being violent or even lethal to a intruder, especially if there's a family present. A lot of grey areas though.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Minn Shoot first ask questions later bill.

    I would say 9/10 being lethal is unnecessary, the threat of lethality is more than enough.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Minn Shoot first ask questions later bill.

    As long as it results in more dead Minnesotans I am for it.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Minn Shoot first ask questions later bill.

    I used to work for a guy from there, Craig Bachmann, if he were my only experience of people from that state I would agree with you.
    Swear filters are for sites run by immature children.

  19. #19
    Border Patrol's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Minn Shoot first ask questions later bill.

    Nooooo! They have the greatest accent of any English speaking people anywhere!
    Proud Nerdimus Maximus of the Trench Coat Mafia.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Minn Shoot first ask questions later bill.

    They still speak like that in some places i've been in Wisconsin. They also have cheese and beer there.
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