Real Battle, Buildings, Recruitment (RBBR) for BC 2.3

[rusnmat]

When I started looking at BC 2.02 EDU file, I've noticed similarity in unit armour & shield values between SS and BC.
Some late units in SS do have a higher armour value than the highest armoured unit in BC, but those units appear in the late period. And at that period, historically, European half-plate and plate armour was much tougher than armour of units in Middle East in 12th century ( as covered in BC) Since missiles damage counts only armour and shield defence ( not defence skill), the missile attack values should be similar to SS , so that meant that I could adapt missile accuracies and values from RC and my SS mod in to BC
On the other hand, defence skill of many units in higher in BC which leads to longer melee battles, which I personally prefer.Also it make infranty to withstand charges better. Even though cavalry charges bonuses about 20% higher in BC than in SS, much higher defence skill make them not as deadly. I did increased some charge bonuses slightly further, some of unit defence skill might have to come down. As I know, RC for SS will have units with slightly higher defence skill. Over here defence skill and charges will have to be adjusted.

The only thing that will screw even the best balance battlefield balance are those smith/armored/guild upgrades. Each weapon upgrade actually adds about 3 ATK to the weapon ( not +1 as shown in unit cards). It changes units stats a lot, especially if weapon has AP attribute. Using common sense, I can understand , that upgrading a sword could lead to a sharper, stronger ones that might add to a cutting power. But upgrading a club, mace or spear shouldn't change much at all. I would rather see smith/armourers upgrading units armour.
We can also set possible upgrades possible for each units and such with swordsmith guilds, I would rather see units gaining experience instead of getting huge weapon upgrades. I might work on that after I done with units balance in EDU.
Or it could be great if BC team includes that in their next version.
I viewed EDU file listed for BC 3.0 . On one hand it has some nice units structure , same as RC with all different unit hierarchy
On the other hand it gives units tons of armour, then gives many weapons AP attribute. Even many spears are AP ( to half the thickness of armour :? Personally, I think that the BC 2.02 EDU requires less overall adjustments and the better place to start with.

[wudang_clown]

Armour upgrades would only make sense within long period of time, to represent technological development. Otherwise, there is no sense in equipping militia units in better and better armour. BC already has tons of cool units. Upgrades wouldn't give any extra coolness, in my opinion, but would unbalance units, making mere militia equally equipped as some professional troops.

Also, I believe there is models limit, in EDU or battle_models.modeldb.

Oh, and great there is another submod in the section. Keep developing it!

[rusnmat]

Armour upgrades would only make sense within long period of time, to represent technological development. Otherwise, there is no sense in equipping militia units in better and better armour. BC already has tons of cool units. Upgrades wouldn't give any extra coolness, in my opinion, but would unbalance units, making mere militia equally equipped as some professional troops.

Also, I believe there is models limit, in EDU or battle_models.modeldb.

Oh, and great there is another submod in the section. Keep developing it!

These are good points... But fortunately, there are some ways around that. As we can limit number of armour upgrades per unit. As for militias just getting basic upgraded leather without possibility of further upgrades. No need for their new models then. If we reach a model limits, there is no need to create a new model for the upgraded unit ( even though it would be nice). Same as no need to create "light saber" weapons model for units with upgraded weapons
BC unit models are so awesome, I am just trying to improve the battle fighting experience. Upgrading weapons vs. armour creates 2-4 times more impact on units stats. It shows the most if unit has an AP weapon.Also effect of upgraded armour will be halved if opposing units have AP weapon

[wudang_clown]

I'm not sure if I understand you correctly.

Yes, you don't need to have a new model of weapon to simulate an upgrade, but I think you need a new model if you want to simulate armour upgrade.

Take Ahdath Infantry (aux arab spearmen) - its soldiers don't have any armour. If you want to upgrade them to leather armour, you need new model entry with leather armour (leather armour appear on that unit in game). Otherwise that would be only a fake upgrade - Ahdath receive only bonus stats, and let's pretend they have leather armour under their garments? Right?

I'm still not sure about EDU. Whether or not new upgrade entry counts as separate unit slot. If yes, that would mean no upgrades at all, at least not in 3.0, as there are 11-12 factions to be added, and there are already ~420 units (or so) in BC2 EDU.

Personally, I think upgrades are no good. Imo - you want to have better armoured soldiers, you recruit better armoured soldiers, there are plenty of them in BC.

[rusnmat]

I'm not sure if I understand you correctly.

Personally, I think upgrades are no good. Imo - you want to have better armoured soldiers, you recruit better armoured soldiers, there are plenty of them in BC.

That is exactly the other way to sove the upgrades problem. Just to remove the whole line of leather tanners/smith/armourer buildings. So units wouldn't get any upgrades at all, just the experience upgrades from other buildings as guilds and high-end barracks..

In the same example with Ahdath Infantry, only with one weapon upgrade their actual attack value doubles.But models doesn't show that something magic happend to their spears, that they became some high-end "saber light" spears. That is a "Star Wars" refference to those metal cutting jedai weapons.
Since not such effect implemented now with weapons, we can as well apply armour upgrade to Ahdath Infantry. At least it will more believable that they might have some padded leather under garments, than them having "magic" spears after upgrade.

I am sure that extra upgrades unit models doesn't count as separate unit slots. There are about 500 units in SS6.4 and majority does have an upgrade model. Just from my head, I remember that peasants, and some militias doesn't have an armoured model. Peasants for ,instance, just get a padded leather upgrade from leather tanner.

[wudang_clown]

That is exactly the other way to sove the upgrades problem. Just to remove the whole line of leather tanners/smith/armourer buildings. So units wouldn't get any upgrades at all, just the experience upgrades from other buildings as guilds and high-end barracks..

Yes, of course.

Alternatively, smith building tree could be recruitment prerequisite - you want to have units armoured in leather armour, then you need to build leather tanner, etc., up to metal scale and lamellar armours. That's my favourite solution. It's not the best, makes recruitment more complicated, but I think it's better than smith giving experience bonus to units.

About undergarment armours - it would be far fetched for me to assume ahdath could afford decent leather armour. But that's only personal preference.

[rusnmat]

Then it could be just better to remove the entire line of armour buildings in BC. I am not sure how AI will deal with multiple building requirments to train better units. We might end up with almost no AI high end units in a campaign.

On the other note, I do like no free_upkeep units in BC. It's a new concept, after thinking about it, it might be one of the most accurate. In RC/RR and most of the mods for MT there are number of units with free upkeep.
Either they are local militias or feudal nobles that historically didn't get paid by the king/ sultan/ shah and such.
But if that to be implemented in the case of nobles, then king should not receive any or reduced income from different provinces. Since it's not implemented then it is the most realistic for nobles not have a free upkeep.
Slightly different side with militias and locals. We can assume that there would be some miltias taking up arms if town gets seige. I would suquest for BC team to implement a script that adds some miltias for AI towns when they sieged.
Then it would be no upkeep for those units. Other recruited locals/militia units should have upkeep costs (for food, cloth and such) and it is very low anyway. Most of the time those units are not just sitting in one town, but moved between different provinces and fights in diffent regions they came from..

[wudang_clown]

AI doesn't have to handle complicated recruitment procedure, not at all. It is relatively easy to prepare a separate set of recruitment conditions, so AI won't have to build all those prerequisites.

As for nobles not being on ruler's pay, sure that was a fact - but in M2TW player controls ruling family members and all agents are hired by ruling family members, thus my dislike for free_upkeep. There no place for it in BC, in my opinion.

Garrison script supporting AI - there is one already, though it concerns only settlements considered as most important for that or another reason. Creating script for all settlements is doable, but it would mean additional 4000 lines (depending on script's structure). Current script has 4000 lines, so it would double the length. But I don't think it is possible to make them free this way. AI receives various money bonuses, so that's not a deal anyway.

[rusnmat]

To wudang_clown: That is exactly what I like in BC- no free_upkeep for any units.. I just recently realised that is a good concept.

I think that making armour recruitment requerments loose for AI and strict for the human player is a good idea. It will eliminate the armour/weapons upgrade problem.. And possible makes it harder for the player.

[Babygod22]

You should take a look at the formation of the "Samveta Senya" troops of Solanki. It is messed up.

[rusnmat]

Thanks for letting me know, I just fixed that typo.
Also, just did finer cavalry adjustments and updated the EDU file at the first post.

[karaislam]

You should take a look at the formation of the "Samveta Senya" troops of Solanki. It is messed up.

u were fun of ummah.and the big fan.since long time i didnt see u.welcome.

[karaislam]

rus this is ur final?ll u continue to update?

[rusnmat]

I would recommend to wait for a week or so. I changed many things that were obvious , but for finer adjustments and to find inconsitencies will take time. There are over 400 units in EDU, every units has multiple paraments with armour, weapons, formation etc. To say that I am complitely done it will be premature. Since these changes save game compatible, for most people it wouldn't matter that much, but since you are planning to incorporate in your EDU, better to wait .

[Aragorn1963]

Hi Rusnmate, is your mod compatible with Kaisers increased size unit mod?

[karaislam]

Hi Rusnmate, is your mod compatible with Kaisers increased size unit mod?

No

[Aragorn1963]

Pity.

[Babygod22]

u were fun of ummah.and the big fan.since long time i didnt see u.welcome.

Thanks for the warm welcome man, I had a job and found a girl so I was pretty much gone from the forum.

Good luck to your Steppe Horde mod! I never liked those Mongol cavalry and Dismounted Khan's Guard's model as well as the horse armour (no offense to Yelu Dashi), glad someone finally decided to change them. I think Stainless Steel's have the best Mongol troop's model, you should definitely consider bringing them into your mod.

@rusnmat
Would you consider raising the troop's number for all units since BC is now run on Kingdom's engine?

[rusnmat]

to Babygod22: The downside of inreasing troops number is that makes it akward for walls defending and streets fighting. If you have too big of a unit, you wouldn't be able to place it on wall. That's why I normally play on large unit setting. Since many towns in BC developed more and bigger than ,for instance, in SS early campaign, you can also use huge settings without any bad siege experience... I am not sure yet if I'd want to increase the unit number.

It is very easy and fairly straitforward to increase the unit size by yourself.
Open EDU with Notepad, you'll see that every unit has a "soldier" line like in sample below:
soldier levy_an_archers, 60, 0, 0.76

60 - is the number of soldiers. If you'd like to increase all troops size by 30%, then 60x1.3=78.
You can easily replace all 60s with 78 unit size with "Replace" function under "Edit' Notepad tab.
I would recommend to replace entries one by one to make sure that you are replacing the correct "60".

There are 6 or 7 unit sizes in BC. You can easily finish the whole project within 15 min.

On the other note, I just finished changing minimum distance for charge bonus.
That distance was reduced for infantry from 30m to 8 m,
cavalry from 40-45 m to 32m,
Increased for elephants from 30 to 40 meters.
Also, I just redone all stamina bonuses. Now they are more consistant and trained, higher level troops will get tired at slower rate since melee is more prolonged in BC.
I got to doa tiduous job with adjusting every unit terrain and heat modiffiers. I 'll update the first page upload when it's ready.

[rummtata]

Hey rusnmat, whatever you did screwd up the ability of cavalry to pursue routing units, they just stop the moment they reach them. As soon as I switched the export_units_descr.txt back to vanilla 2.3 the problem disappeared... what about the rest of you, haven't you experienced the same problem?