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  1. #1

    Icon5 [idea]buildings effects realism?

    hi there, I haven't played 6.3/6.4 so I don't know about the new buildings these SS versions have... however I have these ideas/suggestions concerning buildings and other things that affects populations

    1. walls :
    - I believe walls (mainly city walls, not castles) should actually have negative effects for laws, especially for the bigger ones (minor city or above), this is to simulate chaos on a bigger community.
    - bigger walls which also simulate bigger cities should perhaps also have health penalties to represent the slum areas cities can have
    - if possible, bigger cities can also mean the community there will be more tolerant to religious difference, so lowering the religious unrest there

    2. farms :
    - farms should have minor health penalty? farms are dirty and prone to pests
    - farms' population growth bonus should be 1 or 2 step higher / tier

    3. markets :
    - markets should provide boost to mines income
    - markets should provide small population growth bonus to simulate migrations from other regions due to opportunity of riches; perhaps 1.5% is the max on the highest level of market.
    - markets should have law penalty to simulate black markets, illegal tradings, greed from peoples, corruptions and other evil things ; perhaps max 30% law penalty on highest tier and perhaps also give them minor corruption bonus?
    - markets should have minor to moderate health penalties; I believe medieval markets were dirty
    - market should lower religious unrest to simulate the gathering of peoples from different faith to trade there, thus have more tolerance?
    - if possible, market should give small religious conversion bonus from neighboring religions that different than that region's religion, maybe 0.5%/2 neighboring settlements that have at least 50% different religion? is something like this possible? again, this is to simulate migrations

    4. city militia buildings :
    - should decrease happiness; people hate conscription
    - should have minor health penalty

    5. council chambers :
    - lower tier should have minor law bonus, however higher tier should actually have law penalty to simulate one of the effects from corruptions
    - higher tier should have corruption bonus to simulate corrupt bureaucracy
    - higher tier should have the small probability to give the governor small dread / dread traits - is this possible?

    6. hanging place/guilotine like place (don't know the name since I haven't played 6.3/6.4, but I've seen it on youtube however I forget) :
    - should have moderate law bonus; hang these criminals
    - should have minor penalty to happiness; fear in the hearts of the people
    - if possible, should have the probability to give dread to governor, your FL and lowering your faction reputation

    7. churches :
    - should give minor law bonus
    - however higher tier church should give corruption bonus; medieval church were corrupt
    - minor health bonus

    8. brothels :
    - should have minor to moderate happiness bonus
    - should give moderate law penalty; many kind of evils happened in such places
    - higher tier brothels should have minor population growth bonus; exotics fun places attract peoples everywhere

    mmm that's all I can think for now however I'm no modder, just giving ideas that I hope can be implemented

    opinions?

  2. #2
    SoulBlade's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: [idea]buildings effects realism?

    Well thought post. I think most of the things are logical, while some are not possible.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: [idea]buildings effects realism?

    while some are not possible.
    like the different religion religious conversion thing?

    btw can someone list me buildings on 6.4 and their descriptions?

  4. #4
    Erunion Telcontar's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [idea]buildings effects realism?

    Comments/criticisms in GREEN.

    Quote Originally Posted by napoleonic View Post
    hi there, I haven't played 6.3/6.4 so I don't know about the new buildings these SS versions have... however I have these ideas/suggestions concerning buildings and other things that affects populations

    1. walls :
    - I believe walls (mainly city walls, not castles) should actually have negative effects for laws, especially for the bigger ones (minor city or above), this is to simulate chaos on a bigger community.
    - bigger walls which also simulate bigger cities should perhaps also have health penalties to represent the slum areas cities can have
    - if possible, bigger cities can also mean the community there will be more tolerant to religious difference, so lowering the religious unrest there

    I like the idea for religious unrest, but the idea of bigger walls = lower law is not a good one. A larger population should = reduced law, but not a larger city wall! Improving the size of the city wall would actually give more room (and more room inside the wall as opposed to gate towns outside). This would lead to increased law and decreased squalor, as the slums that had built up inside the cramped, smaller city walls would be able to expand into cleaner, healthier places.


    2. farms :
    - farms should have minor health penalty? farms are dirty and prone to pests
    - farms' population growth bonus should be 1 or 2 step higher / tier

    Yes, farms are dirty and prone to pests, but so are houses, streets, walls, gates, your hair/etc. Farms were no worse than any other medieval institution. Likely they were better, as high-level farms would improve the nutrition that people would get.

    3. markets :
    - markets should provide boost to mines income
    - markets should provide small population growth bonus to simulate migrations from other regions due to opportunity of riches; perhaps 1.5% is the max on the highest level of market.
    - markets should have law penalty to simulate black markets, illegal tradings, greed from peoples, corruptions and other evil things ; perhaps max 30% law penalty on highest tier and perhaps also give them minor corruption bonus?
    - markets should have minor to moderate health penalties; I believe medieval markets were dirty
    - market should lower religious unrest to simulate the gathering of peoples from different faith to trade there, thus have more tolerance?
    - if possible, market should give small religious conversion bonus from neighboring religions that different than that region's religion, maybe 0.5%/2 neighboring settlements that have at least 50% different religion? is something like this possible? again, this is to simulate migrations

    I believe that medieval markets were no dirtier than anything else medieval. Meanwhile, they introduced varied spices and diet to the populace, as well as many other valuable goods (like salt) that would improve health. The rest of your ideas though are pretty solid.

    4. city militia buildings :
    - should decrease happiness; people hate conscription
    - should have minor health penalty

    You really like health penalties! On this one, as on all the others, I (humbly) disagree. Why would a town watch hurt the cities health?

    5. council chambers :
    - lower tier should have minor law bonus, however higher tier should actually have law penalty to simulate one of the effects from corruptions
    - higher tier should have corruption bonus to simulate corrupt bureaucracy
    - higher tier should have the small probability to give the governor small dread / dread traits - is this possible?

    Two problems, one, corruption was not inevitable in the larger law buildings (although it was very, very common I think). However, look at this from a gameplay perspective. If a larger council chamber actually reduces law, why the heck would you build it!?!?

    6. hanging place/guilotine like place (don't know the name since I haven't played 6.3/6.4, but I've seen it on youtube however I forget) :
    - should have moderate law bonus; hang these criminals
    - should have minor penalty to happiness; fear in the hearts of the people
    - if possible, should have the probability to give dread to governor, your FL and lowering your faction reputation

    Kinda like, but remember, these kinds of things were really common. Everyone did it, why would it lower faction reputation? Wouldn't it increase it, as people would know that justice (as they saw it) was done in your territory?

    7. churches :
    - should give minor law bonus
    - however higher tier church should give corruption bonus; medieval church were corrupt
    - minor health bonus

    Sure, the medieval church was often corrupt, but not always. Still, a viable idea.

    8. brothels :
    - should have minor to moderate happiness bonus
    - should give moderate law penalty; many kind of evils happened in such places
    - higher tier brothels should have minor population growth bonus; exotics fun places attract peoples everywhere

    Well reasoned.

    mmm that's all I can think for now however I'm no modder, just giving ideas that I hope can be implemented

    opinions?
    Overall, some good ideas. You've got to be careful though, don't go overboard on the medieval-people-were-smelly trope.

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  5. #5
    RollingWave's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: [idea]buildings effects realism?

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=405904

    I have done that in my mod, on top of adding a lot of new buildings mostly in line with what you reasoned.

    the income aspect become a lot more complex since I add in fix incomes and more law penalties / building upkeep cost for some buildings etc...

    Medieval Churchs were not only corrupt, they were also often exempted from the laws of local states (especially the Catholics) which made things even more complicated.

    my own version... (just talking about old buildings)

    Farms : clearance's effect becomes weaker mostly just a happiness bonus, later stages become better (since right now the marginal effects of land clearance is clearly too great. )

    Clearance: + happiness cost fixed upkeeps
    Communal: Farm lvl 1 + law (include previous bonus of course)
    Rotation : farm lvl 2 +trade (crop diversity)
    Irrigation: farm lvl 4 + health + trade (irrigations were incrediablly important , but right now it's marginal effect is crap especially considering that it's one of the most expensive buildings around )

    Brothel : happiness bonus, law penalty, income bonus and later on trade bonus as well (stimulates trade and taxes etc.. law penalty can go up pretty damn high though)

    Militia barracks : takes money to maintain, later level reduces happiness slightly (mostly by the last 2-3 level. ) also increases law obviously

    Gallows : + law -happiness. (I made it 3 level with dungeon and dungeon complex... later level increases law dramatically but also reduce pop growth and cost money to maintain)

    Schools : + happiness + law (better educated people helps promote law and order somewhat) and cost fixed upkeep though at high level also increase trade slightly. same for libraries

    Mines : have health penalty for obvious reasons. second level have a small trade bonus .

    Markets : increase in fixed and trade bonus and happiness, minus law, later level have a slight negative effect on health as well. (Ports and Sea trade also have health penalty. generally reflecting the obvious problem of more people comming and going means higher likelihood of diease spreading)

    Roads: level 1 increases trade more noticabbly, pretty serious upkeep cost especially on later levels. also increases law slightly (easier to maintain order when you can actually get around places)

    just some examples. when applied fixed income bonus you give another dimension to how money works in TW which is nice... (too bad taxable income bonus no longer work properly in MTW like it did in RTW)
    1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....

  6. #6

    Default Re: [idea]buildings effects realism?

    I see RW, so is PB going to incoporate that aspects from your submod for the update?

  7. #7
    RollingWave's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: [idea]buildings effects realism?

    that part is easily enough done to be honest, I can probably do a submod with that sort of effect in a few min all it need is some copy / paste of lines in the EDB.
    1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....

  8. #8
    Gorrrrrn's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: [idea]buildings effects realism?

    small point: giving lots of negative bonuses might well impact on things such as population growth, which some people are already complaining about in main SS6.4 forum.

    I know I've added many new buildings to the CHIP sub-mod but I still don't know what the cumulative effect of them will be over 200 - 400 turns.

    will the bonuses be for the AI or just the human player? (or a mix?)

  9. #9
    RollingWave's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: [idea]buildings effects realism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rozanov View Post
    small point: giving lots of negative bonuses might well impact on things such as population growth, which some people are already complaining about in main SS6.4 forum.

    I know I've added many new buildings to the CHIP sub-mod but I still don't know what the cumulative effect of them will be over 200 - 400 turns.

    will the bonuses be for the AI or just the human player? (or a mix?)
    Right... which is why I have alot of new buildings... which tend to balance it all out anyway... for ever building that have things like health penalty there will be other buildings with health bonuses etc...

    right now it's mostly the same for everyone. though I might look into giving the AI a slight help if in my games shows that AI underdevelop... I doubt it though, 6.3 thought that AI needed help and the result was that AI turned wooden castle into citadals before you can turn them into fortress.

    Also, I'll probably adjust further in later patches to have more cities start out a little larger anyway.
    1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....

  10. #10

    Default Re: [idea]buildings effects realism?

    ^ how is in yours and RW's mod? how the AI handle them? I don't even know how the AI build things...? but ideally we want the world developed with logic and common sense, so we want the AI to actually build the correct infrastructures

  11. #11
    RollingWave's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: [idea]buildings effects realism?

    Quote Originally Posted by napoleonic View Post
    ^ how is in yours and RW's mod? how the AI handle them? I don't even know how the AI build things...? but ideally we want the world developed with logic and common sense, so we want the AI to actually build the correct infrastructures
    AI tends to build whatever it can afford. a fairly random process but they do ok in the longer run (especially with help of money script). the setting of faction AI decision (balance, trader, religious, smith or fortified) in descr_strat supposedly effect their decision somewhat but not sure how much in the longer run.
    1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....

  12. #12
    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: [idea]buildings effects realism?

    Quote Originally Posted by RollingWave View Post
    AI tends to build whatever it can afford. a fairly random process but they do ok in the longer run (especially with help of money script). the setting of faction AI decision (balance, trader, religious, smith or fortified) in descr_strat supposedly effect their decision somewhat but not sure how much in the longer run.
    The AI will aim for the buildings that gives the most bonus, an example of lack of interest from AI's part is school buildings, there's no bonus in that building, so the AI will not waste money on it even it gives education.

  13. #13
    Gorrrrrn's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: [idea]buildings effects realism?

    I suspect the AI lack of interest in building economic buildings and merchants might have something to do with a money script which makes them less important?

    Another issue is the rate at which settlements grow - if they grow too fast the AI doesn't have time to build some of the minor buildings, but if it has the money and nothing else to spend them on
    it will build them.

    We might need to look at sett_mech file again once new buildings are introduced to see if they affect that as well.

  14. #14

    Default Re: [idea]buildings effects realism?

    The new edition will have the Carl script, so you should take that into consideration when putting in new buildings and arranging scripts.

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