Kataphract Elephants Indestructible

**TTRouble** · May 08, 2011, 05:44 PM

Since the update the Kataphract Elephants are indestructible -

* they rarely panic when under fire attack by 5+ units of Archers
* Javelins from Thorakita, peltasts or javelin calavary make no difference
* Just trample on all phalanx units as if the sarissa's aren;t there
* HA's even having 8 in a full stack make no difference

One 72 man unit of the beasts did not loose a single man - and was able to wipe nearly out a full stack of battle hardened units . Right now the Ele's are totally unplayable so somethigs changed.

Cheers

TTrouble

**dvk901** · May 09, 2011, 11:49 AM

That should not be the case, because I can guarantee I did not change anything in EDU or any other unit related setting file. The only things that have been changed, by and large, are traits files and related ones.

**TTRouble** · May 09, 2011, 12:01 PM

Hi DVk

I wasn;t sure about this until yesterday when I was testing to the Hannibal/Ancillary trait for Antiochus III and attacked the rebel settlement close to Damascus. I was able to defeat the rebel units with 30% losses but when the Elephants showed up, nothing worked against them - they panicked for a very short time and then trampled and crushed every unit with no losses. Played the battle several times and the same result. Pretty impressive watching one unit just stomp on man, horse, phalanx and not bat an eyelid!

Just to make sure it wasn't just the selecuids camp - I tried a custom battle with the AI having a single Kataphract ele and my army consisting of 10 heavy peltasts and 10 archers. The result was slightly different in that I was able to cause the ele's to panic and stay in that state but they took no losses and simply just trampled on anything that got close to them.

I'll post the saved game when I get back from work and do an svn update/cleanup incase somethings a miss.

TTRouble

**dvk901** · May 09, 2011, 07:09 PM

Archers and peltasts should be able to kill them eventually...if not, then I'll have to look at their stats and see what up.

**chris10** · May 10, 2011, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by dvk901

Archers and peltasts should be able to kill them eventually...if not, then I'll have to look at their stats and see what up.

some time ago:
20 units roman antesignani against 20 units cataphract elephants and guess what...

at the end of the battle I had only lost 3 units of the antesignani and ALL cataphracts where dead or run amok/routed...killed > 90% of all enemies...
there is nothing wrong with the cataphract elephants the problem its the javeliners/peltasts/velites...generic javelines/peltasts from all factions should get a +2 ( they have none by now) against elephants while roman antesignani have a +6 and all is fine

...I adjusted these values in FGE too

**DedlySerious** · May 10, 2011, 06:26 AM

same here saved all my javelins and fire arrows for 33 elephants double silver chevron didnt kill one. all at once i had 2 archers silver chevron bronze weapons using fire arrows 2 heavy greek peltasts double silver chevron bronze weapons baskilion agema silver chevron bronze weapons celtic heavy swordsmen double bronze chevron bronze weapons and elite throkitai silver chevron bronze weapons all firing on these elephants not one died

**TTRouble** · May 10, 2011, 08:42 AM

In a custom game set to medium - I was able to kill 3-4 elephants (approx 20 men) but it took all 10 heavy pletasts and 10 archers using up all of their ammo to do so.

The previous games were all on H/H and using Alex.exe

**dvk901** · May 10, 2011, 07:03 PM

+2 elephant you mean?

**TTRouble** · May 11, 2011, 02:20 AM

Hey Chris

Are you sure ? I've fought the rebels with the Katapracht ele's numerous times with similar armies even with plain old peltasts and have been able to kill 90% or more of the unit but right now thats no longer possible.

The ingame battle my army was comprised of:

4 Syrian + 1 Greek archers - silver armour upgrades
2 Saka + 2 Babylonian HA's - silver armour upgrades
3 Longhchopori Heavy Cav - silver armour upgrades
2 Thorkotai - silver armour upgrades
2 Silver Shield Phalanx
1 Hyspatati
1 General - silver armour upgrades
2 Javelin/Missiel cav - silver armour upgrades

I even kept 3 of the syrian archers, the throkatai and the Javelin/missile cav not to fire until the ele's show and they were unable to kill even one of them.

I've attached the save game - alex.exe, H/H.

Cheers

TTrouble

**chris10** · May 11, 2011, 03:17 AM

Originally Posted by TTRouble

I even kept 3 of the syrian archers, the throkatai and the Javelin/missile cav not to fire until the ele's show and they were unable to kill even one of them.
I've attached the save game - alex.exe, H/H.
Cheers
TTrouble

TT...yes Iam sure...archers,slingers do pretty much nothing against Elephants and javelin/missile cavalry will perform only slightly better...you need Javeliners/Peltasts/Velites to really kill them off otherwise they run havoc on your army but that has been like that since vanilla RTW

Originally Posted by dvk901

+2 elephant you mean?

yup...+2 against Elephants for all velite like infantry like velites,peltasts,javeliners ...

**TTRouble** · May 12, 2011, 02:49 PM

Something is still off here:

Custom battle - Macedon 5 Throkatai + 5 Taxotai Archers vs 1 x Selecuids Kat ele
2011 men vs 73
End Battle - Kills - 12 vs Kills 927

Alex.Exe, H/H - all units no upgrades.

The ele's panicked but only after crushing 2 of the heavy infantry units totally with the remaining throkatai feeling the battle, so only archers left.

TTrouble

**chris10** · May 12, 2011, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by TTRouble

Something is still off here:
Custom battle - Macedon 5 Throkatai + 5 Taxotai Archers vs 1 x Selecuids Kat ele
2011 men vs 73
End Battle - Kills - 12 vs Kills 927
Alex.Exe, H/H - all units no upgrades.
The ele's panicked but only after crushing 2 of the heavy infantry units totally with the remaining throkatai feeling the battle, so only archers left.
TTrouble

thats not off TT

...Elephants are supposed to do that...(rolling over 2 units at least and frighten the rest of the heavy infantry)...If you use heavy tanks and the enemy has no armour penetrating AT guns with sufficient calibre they roll you over no matter how many men you field

...Thorakitai is heavy infantry (the natural food of Elephant Units

) place 2-3 units of greek heavy peltast behind your battle line instead of those useless archers and you will see the difference...the Elephants are dead in no time

**Paedric** · May 22, 2011, 03:35 AM

While working on the Bosphoran EDU some times ago, I noticed that the single_player EDU had not been updated whereas the data one had been. Since every time the game is launched, the single_player file overwrite the data one (this isn't the best behaviour, I'll correct that when I find the time), the new stats were not used. I corrected this.

However the new data had more armour (15 instead of 1 IIRC) for elephants, the problem described here might come from that.

**chris10** · May 22, 2011, 03:52 AM

Originally Posted by Paedric

While working on the Bosphoran EDU some times ago, I noticed that the single_player EDU had not been updated whereas the data one had been. Since every time the game is launched, the single_player file overwrite the data one (this isn't the best behaviour, I'll correct that when I find the time), the new stats were not used. I corrected this.

However the new data had more armour (15 instead of 1 IIRC) for elephants, the problem described here might come from that.

hmmm...by default the modfolder EDU should always be the dominant one...
that allows for adjusted values and individual localized balancing for each campaign if necessary...

any other setting would be absurd...

**Paedric** · May 22, 2011, 04:37 AM

hmmm...by default the modfolder EDU should always be the dominant one...
that allows for adjusted values and individual localized balancing for each campaign if necessary...
any other setting would be absurd...

Indeed, but few modfolders have a cutom EDU (Rome and some HA factions), all the others use the main EDU

**dvk901** · May 22, 2011, 08:00 AM

The EDU you are referring to is only copied into the main data folder, correct? I'm assuming multiplayer is only accessible thru the 'Custom Battles' choice in the Laucher? Or is this different?
I really don't like the whole copying every time thing...this goofed me up right from the release of RS2, since I had no idea it was doing that. IMO, it should be a choice to copy the multi-player file over ONLY when you want to play multi-player, and never mess with the main mod or files.....and then restore the main data folder EDU if you play anything else. And by 'restore', I mean a method such as renaming the original EDU (the one that's in there or that the player put in there), copying in he multi-player file, then restoring the original by deleting the multi-player one and renaming the original back to EDU. This way, if the player makes changes, or he chooses to use one of the options in important stuff, it doesn't get blown away.

**Paedric** · May 22, 2011, 08:45 AM

The EDU you are referring to is only copied into the main data folder, correct?

Yes.

I'm assuming multiplayer is only accessible thru the 'Custom Battles' choice in the Laucher? Or is this different?

Multiplayer is accessible by choosing "Multiplayer" from the launcher. It's not custom battle because of historical battles and ownership.

I really don't like the whole copying every time thing...this goofed me up right from the release of RS2, since I had no idea it was doing that. IMO, it should be a choice to copy the multi-player file over ONLY when you want to play multi-player,

That was supposed to be the case. It apparently escaped my attention each time I was fixing something.

and never mess with the main mod or files.....and then restore the main data folder EDU if you play anything else. And by 'restore', I mean a method such as renaming the original EDU (the one that's in there or that the player put in there), copying in he multi-player file, then restoring the original by deleting the multi-player one and renaming the original back to EDU. This way, if the player makes changes, or he chooses to use one of the options in important stuff, it doesn't get blown away.

What the launcher does is to paste the EDU from either single or multi_player into the main data depending on what was required. I did this because it was the easiest and I did not foresee any complications at the time.
Would copying the current data EDU to single_player, then pasting the multiplayer edu in data when multiplayer is selected; and then swap this when it's the other way around be ok?

**Paedric** · May 22, 2011, 09:34 AM

Due to a mistake, I've lost RSII for now, so I can't really test this, neither upload it to svn.
If someone could do it, it'd be nice.
Just check the data EDU is copied to important_stuff/single_player when starting multiplayer, and that the single_player edu is only copied when the last used campaign was multiplayer.