Ptolemies/Egyptians

[DimeBagHo]

Here are some new units I whipped up.

1. 2. 3.

1. Based on the Desert Axemen model and skin. This unit will be similar to Desert Axemen but with better armour and maybe improved attack and morale. Recruitable with an Army Barracks. Might be called Armoured Axemen, or Agema Axemen.This version got cut.

2. Two handed axe unit based on the Pharoah's Guard model and skin. This unit might be recruitable with a Royal Barracks, or it might be limited to just one region. Might be called Basilikon Guard Axemen.This version got cut.

3. Iberian spearman. Will be recruitable by Spain with a city Barracks. It's just the medium infantry model and skin that CA used for long shield cavalry.

[Zarax]

Cool units DBH, though I'm not too keen on giving the eggies new units...
BTW, agema should be reserved only for the elits units as it was reserved by the macedonian and successors for the best of each wing...

That said, isn't the basilikon guard axemen unit a bit too fantasy? I mean, chosen axemen would fit a barbarian faction or exotic units and we're a thousand years too early for MTW egyptian elite axemen.
If you wanna give some extra units there maybe you can take a look at the egyptian line in europa barbarorum which has some interesting stuff (and where i take ideas sometimes)

[zodmaner]

Yeah, I agree with Zarzax. If there is anything to be done with them then I want to see them changed to be more in line with other successors armies. They armies should be similar to those of Seleucid and Macedon, with main difference lies in few native troops.

While some people may fear that this will make the game too repetative. I think with careful implemation we can make the eggie (or more appropriately, the Ptolemy) interesting (again, just look at EB.)

After all, how can a mod that aims to make the Greeks more interesting forget to include one of the most important Greek domain at that time, namely the Ptolemy, and make it into a Greeks nation it should be rather than a fantasy state that it currently is?

Anyway, that's just my 2 cent. What do you guys think?

[DimeBagHo]

That said, isn't the basilikon guard axemen unit a bit too fantasy? I mean, chosen axemen would fit a barbarian faction or exotic units and we're a thousand years too early for MTW egyptian elite axemen. If you wanna give some extra units there maybe you can take a look at the egyptian line in europa barbarorum which has some interesting stuff (and where i take ideas sometimes)

Surprisingly a two handed axe unit is probably closer to reality than anything else - and I got the idea from an EB post (I don't know if they are still included in the EB line-up though). One type of elite infantry that the Ptolomies used was Ethiopian axemen, and they were pretty much the same as the axemen in use 1000 years later (some things don't change much I guess ).

With the AOR for phalangites the Egyptians have nothing at the army barracks level in non-hellenic regions, so I think they should get some sort of elite non-phalanx unit, although not-necessarily both of these new units.

In terms of capability and fighting style the current Egyptian line-up is pretty close to the other hellenic factions, and reasonably realistic (except for the chariots). It's just the way they look which is fantasy now, and I am not that enthusiastic about doing a general re-skin. I'll take a look at webbirds skins though. If I like them enough you never know.

[Zarax]

Surprisingly a two handed axe unit is probably closer to reality than anything else - and I got the idea from an EB post (I don't know if they are still included in the EB line-up though). One type of elite infantry that the Ptolomies used was Ethiopian axemen, and they were pretty much the same as the axemen in use 1000 years later (some things don't change much I guess ).

With the AOR for phalangites the Egyptians have nothing at the army barracks level in non-hellenic regions, so I think they should get some sort of elite non-phalanx unit, although not-necessarily both of these new units.

In terms of capability and fighting style the current Egyptian line-up is pretty close to the other hellenic factions, and reasonably realistic (except for the chariots). It's just the way they look which is fantasy now, and I am not that enthusiastic about doing a general re-skin. I'll take a look at webbirds skins though. If I like them enough you never know.

Well, that EB unit is more like RTW desert axemen, high attack but unarmoured... Just like MTW Abyssinian guards...
They were skilled mercenaries but never a standing elite like the macedonian agema.
Anyways, if you want to do a simple reskin you might just want to fix their scale mail a bit, especially cutting the "skirt" on those elites which makes them look ridicolous...

EDIT: Also, we gotta think in terms of game balance, in 99% of my games the eggies still owns everything in the east, would be cool to get some more variety there... Making them even more powerful isn't a good answer imho

[Zarax]

Well, for a more historical approach they should be a mix of greek and egyptian looking units with average quality relying on numbers and zerging... After raphia the eggies basically stopped wininng battles, at the time of caesar they were in full decline and their army was pitied...

Basically they should be not unlike the seleucid, basic hellenic line-up with a few exotic units.

Lastly, i usually don't care about graphics but their elites got the ugliest scale mail skin in the whole game, it's almost unbearable...

[zodmaner]

Basically they should be not unlike the seleucid, basic hellenic line-up with a few exotic units.

Exactly! they main troop, the phalanx, should be no different from those of other successors states and we can use most of the skin from the Greek cities, Seleucid and Macedon for the new Ptolemy line up (maybe with some little modification), as they use roughly the same equipment as those of other successors state.

[Zarax]

Exactly! they main troop, the phalanx, should be no different from those of other successors states and we can use most of the skin from the Greek cities, Seleucid and Macedon for the new Ptolemy line up (maybe with some little modification), as they use roughly the same equipment as those of other successors state.

Well, different skins are good, after all they were in a different climate...

[Andrea69]

Zarax and Zodmaner, I agree with you about Ptolemys.
Egypt should have a more hellenistic look&feel as it was historycally. Just look at RTR and EB to grab some stuff. In other words, Agema, Hypaspistai and Hetairoi (the elite heavy cavalry) should be added to the Ptolemy's roster.
Anyway, I would not change the graphics for the buildings and the armies on the strategic map: I dot not want just another greek faction, but the Ptolemys should be a greek-egyptian faction.

[zodmaner]

About different skins, I found this:

Webbird Xmasbox

Webbird skin is just, IMO, perfect for EGM. They mostly retain the look and feels of the vanilla game, so you can use his skin in conjuction with vanilla if you like.

Also, I find that his skin for Pontus's pike phalanx look just perfect for our new Ptolemy's line up (somehow I can't take a screenshot right now, will post it when I figure it out why...)

[DimeBagHo]

Supposedly they wore chainmail armour, so using the scale skin and giving them a similar armour rating to Thorakitai wouldn't be unrealistic. I agree that the skirts look silly though - I'll see what I can do about that. The problem is that changing them means changing the model - not just the skin. One solution would be to base most of the units on the nile infantry/desert axemen model.

In my games the Seleucids have usually stood up to the Egyptians quite well. I guess it has been about 50/50 depending on how hard the Seleucids get hit by other factions. It would be nice to track down what is giving the Egyptians their edge - it might just be the chariot units (the Britons still do better than they should as well).

[Zarax]

Well more than the chariots it's the insane farming bonuses they get on the nile valley, which allows them to field larger armies than most... Also, the speed at which they gets their elites is nothing short of amazing, I did not play them in a long time but I think they also start with well developed cities, giving them the hedge over the Seleucids, who always will have to fight also parthia and pontus.

The britons does decently in my games but nothing special, I think this is due to the gauls always occupied with the southern front and germans getting poor economy to start with rather than the chariots themselves.

[DimeBagHo]

Some new screens of Egyptian units:

1. 2. 3.
4. 5.

1. Levy Phalangites - with a round shield now. 2. Phalangites - again with a round shield now. 3. Agema Phalangites - these are a replacement for Pharoah's Guards. I haven't decided on the armour yet, it might look like this, or more like the Agema Axemen. 4. Ethiopian Axemen - replacement for Desert Axemen. 5. Agema Axemen - new Army Barracks level unit.

Pharoah's Bowmen and Chariot crews will probably get the same treatment as Pharoahs guards - the long dresses will go. They will probably get something like the arrmour the Agema Axemen are wearing. If I get time I am going to add a Basilikon Guard unit that will be a hoplite style unit recruitable with a Royal Barracks, or maybe unique to a single region.

[DimeBagHo]

More Egyptians.

1. 2. 3.

1. The new archer unit, along with the new Egyptian officier. I hadn't noticed before, but the vanilla officers are borked. The skin doesn't match the model. 2. Basilikon guards. I tried using a Thureos shield but it just didn't work well with the over-hand hoplite animation. 3. Basilikon Guard in action.

zodmaner: Your silk road idea could be done quite easily. It might make life hard for the eastern factions though, if they lose the ability to build it. I'm not sure exactly where the silk road ran, but my guess is that it would only be a handful of provinces on the vanilla map (quite a few more on Mundus Magnus).

[DimeBagHo]

I decided to split the discussion of Egypt off from the feature requests to keep things more focused, and so that i wouldn't lose track of the comments here. I think I am pretty much done with unit changes for now, but I will also go over the text files any change the name of this faction to Ptolemies, and re-write the unit descriptions to make it sound more like a Greek faction.

[Zarax]

Cool, are you going to make another 3.x update or is this stuff for XGM4?

[DimeBagHo]

This stuff is pretty much done, and the name change shouldn't involve too much work, so it will probably come out soonish as XGM 3.6. The ideas for XGM 4.0 require quite a bit more work and I don't know when or if i will be able to get it finished.

[Zarax]

Do you need any help on that DBH? I can do some coding if needed...

[DimeBagHo]

Thanks for the offer. I will organise a new thread for the religion stuff, and maybe we can pick things up there.

[Seasoned Alcoholic]

Nice reskinned and new models DB As you know, they're are quite a few discarded models / textures that shipped with RTW but for some reason or another never made it into the final version of the game. There are also several textures that won't fit on the existing models, seems that these models were ommited for whatever reasons.

Regarding the Egyptian-Seleucid gameplay balancing debate, there is quite a lot of work involved in order to bring the Egyptians on a parallel with the Seleucids, many files need to be edited to achieve a decent balance between these 2 factions.

If you've already started the name conversion for the Egyptians, you'll see that it is quite long-winded for some of the text files. Think in vanilla RTW the Egyptians used Egyptian first names and Greek surnames, which was weird. I tried to make all family members use Ptolemy as the first name (as each ruler did), but found this impossible due to the starting character name requirements. If you try and give different surnames to sons and daughters, you'll notice that the family tree will become invalid, and these characters won't be displayed on the tree (even though they are present in the text files).